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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  03:55:26  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
Hmmm... Now I have to go through the dozen different theories I have and see which one matches what MT's talking about.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13252 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  09:28:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
I had a VERY long response here, but then I realized I gave away way too much (if I'm right). So here is a tiny clip of what I originally had -

A lot of the pieces fell into place when my mind started to wander, half-asleep, right after reading that final scene where Filfaeril makes the statement 'daughters of Elminster'.

Three 'daughters', figuratively or no, all working for Cormyr. Filfaeril was a lot more then just the Queen in Cormyr, wasn't she? Thats why Vangerdehast blustered around Azoun, but tip-toed around her.

The High Knights - HARPERS ALL - listen to HER - Cormyr's 'secret police'.

But that isn't the heart of what I realized.. that was the tip of the iceberg.

Harpers... Elminster... Cormyr... it all makes so much sense now.

Let me know if this is the right track...


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 20:23:36
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe

South Africa
648 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  12:21:16  Show Profile  Visit Kyrene's Homepage Send Kyrene a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Filfaeril was a lot more then just the Queen in Cormyr, wasn't she?
That would also explain why she was always so 'forgiving' of Azoun's 'tumblings'... One does not break deep-cover unless told to do so by one's handler.

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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  16:27:24  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
My theory of Elminster's daughters would actually involve someone else entirely.
Ok, it is more wild speculation, it's probably way wrong, though it might add an interesting layer even though it has little value in 4th ed. and is by now fairly useless.
Anyway.

I'm not really 'into' all the Cormyran relations, I haven't read of Ed much yet (I just finished the Knights of Myth Drannor and the Shandril sagas, but they weren't really my taste, sorry).
If Filfaeril would turn out to be Elm's daughter, for instance (and I personally don't think she is, at least not directly), I don't think that would be particularly intriguing. I think she works 'better' if she is a bit more mundane (as far as that is possible for a Queen). You can make people too 'special'. Filfaeril, so far, works for me because I have not read any mind-boggling stuff about her (yet, anyway).
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  16:41:22  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gomez

My theory of Elminster's daughters would actually involve someone else entirely.
Ok, it is more wild speculation, it's probably way wrong, though it might add an interesting layer even though it has little value in 4th ed. and is by now fairly useless.
Anyway.

I'm not really 'into' all the Cormyran relations, I haven't read of Ed much yet (I just finished the Knights of Myth Drannor and the Shandril sagas, but they weren't really my taste, sorry).
If Filfaeril would turn out to be Elm's daughter, for instance (and I personally don't think she is, at least not directly), I don't think that would be particularly intriguing. I think she works 'better' if she is a bit more mundane (as far as that is possible for a Queen). You can make people too 'special'. Filfaeril, so far, works for me because I have not read any mind-boggling stuff about her (yet, anyway).



Spoiler:


At the end of Elminster's Daughter, it is stated that she is one of El's many daughters.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  17:06:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Filfaeril and Laspeera aren't literally daughters of Elminster. As Ed has said, here at Candlekeep, in the past:-

"Narnra is a “direct” daughter of Elminster; Laspeera and Filfaeril were bending the truth a little to make her feel better when they spoke thus: they’re among Elminster’s many grand and great-grand, and great-great-grand (and so on) -children."

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  17:15:22  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
Y'know, as soon as I hit submit I thought I remembered something like that, but wasn't sure... Thanks, Sage!

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13252 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  20:31:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
RIGHT...
But that works even better for my train of thought... the 'Daughters of Elminster'...

Doesn't matter if they are direct children, or descendants, - If most, or even all, are within Cormyr, then what does that make Elminster?

You know... the guy who trained all of Cormyr's Mage-Royals? The guy who trained khelben (who placed the wards around the Obarskyrs). The guy who out-ranks Caladenei (who out-ranks nobles - only one specific group out-ranks her).

You know... the Prince of Athalanter?

And I've probably already said too much.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 20:32:56
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  20:55:46  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

RIGHT...
But that works even better for my train of thought... the 'Daughters of Elminster'...

Doesn't matter if they are direct children, or descendants, - If most, or even all, are within Cormyr, then what does that make Elminster?

You know... the guy who trained all of Cormyr's Mage-Royals? The guy who trained khelben (who placed the wards around the Obarskyrs). The guy who out-ranks Caladenei (who out-ranks nobles - only one specific group out-ranks her).

You know... the Prince of Athalanter?

And I've probably already said too much.



No you should say on, since the Lady Hooded asked you to do so here in this scroll(she will stop you when or if she feels the need, but she was most welcoming of your line of thought), you are now only being a thinly veiled flirt!

And this all would seem to point to El being the "father" of Cormyr and most likely best buds as well as wenching and drinking partners with the old Purple Dragon

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 13 Jul 2010 20:58:22
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  21:17:38  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

RIGHT...
But that works even better for my train of thought... the 'Daughters of Elminster'...

Doesn't matter if they are direct children, or descendants, - If most, or even all, are within Cormyr, then what does that make Elminster?

You know... the guy who trained all of Cormyr's Mage-Royals? The guy who trained khelben (who placed the wards around the Obarskyrs). The guy who out-ranks Caladenei (who out-ranks nobles - only one specific group out-ranks her).

You know... the Prince of Athalanter?

And I've probably already said too much.
A few points:

I. Elminster did not train all of Cormyr's Mages Royal. In fact, he trained only one of its Royal Magicians: Vangerdahast.
1) Baeruable was trained in magic before taking on the job, and also studied under Alea Dahast (his future bride).
2) Amedahast studied under Baerauble
3) Thanderahast studied under Amedahast
4) Jorunhast studied under Thanderhast
5) Vangerdahast studied under Elminster, among other tutors, in large part because Jorunhast was exiled, and therefore could not train his successor directly (at least, not fully)--because such training involves being inside of Cormyr.
6) Caladnei was not a wizard, but a sorcerer, which altered the whole nature of 'training.' What training she did receive for the post of Royal Magician, however, was done under Vangerdahast.
I won't get into Caladnei's successor, because that's 'current Realms time,' and therefore might step on future lore.

II.Not all, or even most, of Elminster's Daughters reside in Cormyr. The Old Mage has a few of them and more to spare, and Narnra, Laspeera and Filfaeril account for only three of them. At the time of Elminster's Daughter, you can be assured that there were more illegitimate daughters of Azoun IV inside of Cormyr than descendants of Elminster (or at least, who knew that they were).

III.Elminster's rank inside Cormyr is murky at best. While Storm Silverhand (for example) is the Marchioness Immerdusk, and holds the appropriate privileges thereof, Elminster holds a place of honor without being called by a particular title (at least, none that I can recall without re-checking sources I haven't read in some time)--in fact, the Prince of Athalanter might have rank, but he doesn't 'outrank' anyone at court. His authority over Caladnei is not absolute, or even mostly complete; it's more of the fact of his experience, his mastership over the Harpers, and his rank in service to Mystra. In Cormyr, the Mage Royal answers only to the Crown.

However, the situation in Elminster's Daughter is special for two reasons:
First, it was the first time in Cormyr's history when a Royal Magician assumed the post with her predecessor alive and within Cormyr's borders. And, despite the fact that Vangerdahast was retired, to assume that he would let anyone truly run the place without him peeking in is... naive.

Second, Caladnei was, without question, given instructions to follow, even if Vangerdahast had been slain or otherwise lost contact. Among those instructions were certainly extra folks to whom Caladnei needed to answer, until she came into her own: the Obarskyr royals, of course, but also Laspeera and Elminster and probably a few others.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13252 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  22:22:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Garen Thal, the ommision of lore does not negate the fact of its possible existance. Elminster has, on two occassions I know of, mentioned a relationship with Amedehast, that infers he passed on some knowledge to her.

And you think Mages only apprentice under one 'master'? For shame... Khelben was a mighty mage.. or at least he thought so... until he met and apprenticed under El.

He also takes Caladenai under his wing in that novel - he whisks her off, presumably in the same exact fashion he did to Vangerdehast before, who also thought he was a mighty Mage, until El humbled him. He states "Vangerdehast cried when I showed him those things". Ergo, "that is what an Elminster does" (to quote Narnra from yet another part of the book). He obviously taught Caladenai something just then - she was respectful and apologetic to him.

Anyhow, I am theorizing here, as THO suggested I do.

The fact that Elminster has finally found a suitable replacement for his 'life's work' is fairly apparent - he makes several off-hand comments throughout the novel, some pertaining to his life coming to a close, and one very telling scene wherein he and Vangerdehast say the same thing at the same time - but it, too, is only one piece of the puzzle.

Your points II and III really don't effect the final conclusion one way or the other, and it is stated in the novel, quite clearly, that "there are a lot of us" by Laspeera. If she knows this, it seems pretty 'organized' to me.

Actually, point III is just plain wrong - pg. 83...

"Moreover, if ye examine no less then six royal decrees and two binding treaties that I know of, preserved in the royal records of Cormyr, I - though not the ruler of Aglarond I'll grant - have the freedom of the realm and a court rank, by the way, that outstrips your own."

Only the royals out-rank the Mage Royal - she even 'talked down to' Vangerdehast, who is now technically her inferior (rank-wise).

Lets call these 'intuitive leaps' - no single one really matters - they all bring me to the same conclusion.

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

And this all would seem to point to El being the "father" of Cormyr

*DING* *DING* DING*

Give the boy a cookie.

That is PRECISELY the thought I had - I even pictured Elminster standing in the prow of a rowboat, crossing the Wyvernwater, much like the famous painting of George Washington, crossing the Delaware.

But once again, that is only a piece of the puzzle - there are more layers there - I thought I had dug down to the root of the matter, but I find yet-another layer, one that goes back to the beginning of time...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 23:48:46
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  23:43:40  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, I am theorizing here - I was unaware that you personally know of every single person everyone in the Realms has interacted with at one time or another - that must be one hell of a data-base.
Markustay, I'm going to have to take offense to this statement--not merely because of your assumption, but because of your tone. It's a bit nasty, frankly, and nothing in my post (intentionally or otherwise) warranted that kind of sniping.

Additionally, as the person that has edited, redacted, fleshed out, and revised the Royal Lineage of Cormyr for the last several years (with the help of Ed, George Krashos, and others--but as its primary keeper), if there is anything about the Realms I do know better than anyone other than Ed himself, it's the dealings of Cormyr's royals (and, by extension, its Mages Royal).

I did not say that Elminster had no dealings with any of the Royal Magicians of Cormyr. I did not say that he did not have a hand in steering some of them to their eventual tasks and decisions. What I said was "Elminster did not train all of Cormyr's Mages Royal. In fact, he trained only one of its Royal Magicians: Vangerdahast."

I'm going to let Ed have his thread back, since its clear that my input as resident Cormyr expert isn't welcome on this particular issue, but before I do, I'll point out a possibility that it seems you didn't consider:

Perhaps it was not Amedahast that learned from Elminster, but the other way round.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13252 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2010 :  23:58:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Dang.

I was just editing my post, after re-reading, both to make it more polite and to clarify a few things, but you quoted me before I could get rid of that.

Sorry

And still, the points you just made have very little to do with the final conclusion I drew, which I still haven't stated. It doesn't matter if he taught them, met them, or simply played cards with them.

It is the fact that he was THERE.

Almost from the beginning.

I am also not saying he is part of the royal family, but I would hazard to guess he is related to them several times over. I am not saying he is an obarskyr, or secretly 'the first Obarskyr' - that would be silly and far-fetched.

There is one 'great thing' that Elminster has always been remorseful over, more so then the thousand other things he is sorry for. Something he wishes he could go back, and 'make right'.

This is the point I am aiming at - the lynchpin that a lot of lore revolves around.

And not JUST Elminster and Cormyr - there is the 'deeper layer' I alluded to. In fact, now that I see it, I feel silly that I hadn't really noticed it before, because Ed has flat-out said it time and again, when discussing Elminster and the Chosen.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2010 00:01:18
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  01:17:00  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
Garen,

So did Amedahast have"Darkeyes"?

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  01:58:30  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Okay, this is driving me MAD. As long as it's just speculation, Markustay, PLEASE go ahead and reveal this "deeper layer" you've mentioned.
I want to know.
I HAVE to know.
I . . . c'mon, put me out of this misery of suspense. Reveal, already.
BB
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe

242 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:00:44  Show Profile  Visit Malcolm's Homepage Send Malcolm a Private Message
Yes, please share, Markustay. Right or wrong, I'm fascinated and I want to hear what THO (and Ed) say in response. We may learn some important stuff from their words.
And if you "go too far," all they have to do is not confirm it, and we'll never be sure, so no harm, no foul.
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:05:22  Show Profile  Visit Broken Helm's Homepage Send Broken Helm a Private Message
Yes, what's this one big thing El is most remorseful about?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:10:23  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Garen Thal, your input is VERY welcome on this issue.
Particularly as your points are all correct (yes, including the closing one in your second post).
I know a little more than Ed has put into print, in canon Realmslore, but Ed has asked me not to say anything on this for a little while, to see what scribes discern (and guess) on their own.
So I'll add my voice to those asking Markustay to boldly go into sharing the "deeper layer" he sees.
love to all,
THO
P.S. Oh, I wish the Royal Lineage could see print, somehow. Perhaps it's time for both Garen and Ed to tackle Steve Winter . . .
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe

Canada
161 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:12:26  Show Profile  Visit Baleful Avatar's Homepage Send Baleful Avatar a Private Message
I find myself needing to apply all my mature, reserved powers to this matter of elminster and Cormyr and whatever the deeper layer is:
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Gotta know! Gotta know!
Please?
BA
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:15:38  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message
A persons death that he could have prevented...and as a consequence his lack of action has echoed down the ages???????

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Longtime Lurker
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  02:43:51  Show Profile  Visit Longtime Lurker's Homepage Send Longtime Lurker a Private Message
I have always thought - - perhaps entirely wrongly - - that when Elminster said that to Caladnei about his rank outstripping her own, he was referring to having at some time in the past been called in, and recognized by the monarch of the time, as some sort of "Royal Investigator" into the War Wizards, who could give orders to the Royal Magician, Court Wizard, and any War Wizard, to do his investigations.
A post that's probably forgotten by the time of Caladnei, except by Vangey (who doesn't want anyone to remember it) but that was confirmed by five later Cormyrean monarchs (those "six decrees") and in return for which El wrung a concession out of Cormyr: don't walk in and de facto conquer Shadowdale (and perhaps other dales), which would be the "treaties" mentioned.
This is all speculation on my part, but it sure fits what El said. He was the "top" alarphon at some time, and because he outlived everyone, never formally relinquished that post. Later kings saw him as a convenient bogeyman to warn off Vangey or any other over-ambitious War Wizard with, if they stepped too far into "running things without remembering to even inform the Obarskyrs about what orders they were giving" territory, and "reconfirmed" him in that post, perhaps pointedly at Court.
Ed? THO? Garen Thal? In the tradition of Eric Boyd and George Krashos, this is my concocted explanation for what Ed's said, that makes it "fit" with what else we know.
Or, of course, that utterance of El's could have been something far more simple: a flat lie, trying to manipulate an inexperienced Caladnei.
Oh, geez, Ed, you've put layers upon layers into this, haven't you?
That's why it all feels so real . . .
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  10:31:15  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
Markustay, you mentioned Athalantar, and it was unclear whether you were implying that it has some connection to Cormyr. I do remember asking Ed about this (something about the symbol or name of Cormyr having something to do with a stag, and Athalantar being the Stag Kingdom) and his answer that there was no connection between Athalantar and Cormyr, and that Athalantar "was located just south of what is now the High Forest, and was defined by the two rivers: Delimbiyr and the Unicorn Run."

Re. this: "Perhaps it was not Amedahast that learned from Elminster, but the other way round."
It seems weird to me that Elminster (who by then [later than 376 DR] had been in Myth Drannor [reborn in 261 DR], and met Alea Dahast herself) would have that much to learn from Amedahast. Yet our Lady says it is true. I think it was more of a partnership. Amedahast taught El spells of Baerauble from Netheril, and he taught her spells from Myth Drannor.
In any case, it is probable that Elminster had a hand in helping Amedahast, and probably helped her found the War Wizards. He obviously cared for her and mourned her.

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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  12:11:19  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
Greetings Ed and the Hooded One, I'm afraid I'm going to have to start out by apologising for asking something that's not really related to the Realms, but to Ed as a librarian. On another forum someone was asking for recommendations for kid's books, and having made mine I got to thinking - do people outside Sweden still read Astrid Lindgren enough that I won't potentially have sent someone off on a wild-goose chase?

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  12:20:52  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
Oh, and on the subject of cheese:

Which country is the Realms-equivalent of France in terms of having the largest variety of cheeses?
Where is the best hard and soft cheeses made respectively?
And (not at all to do with cheese) is there anywhere in the Realms where the popuöation has hit upon the idea of fermenting herring? (A friendly advise to all scribes - should you come across someone threatening to open a can of this foodstuff: run for it. Or maybe call George W, he deserves to find some WMDs eventually, and this would do the trick.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2010 :  12:25:48  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase

Greetings Ed and the Hooded One, I'm afraid I'm going to have to start out by apologising for asking something that's not really related to the Realms, but to Ed as a librarian. On another forum someone was asking for recommendations for kid's books, and having made mine I got to thinking - do people outside Sweden still read Astrid Lindgren enough that I won't potentially have sent someone off on a wild-goose chase?



I would guess that you are thinking about countries a little further away, but just for the record: Their still read here in Norway, but not as much as they were twenty years ago (when you would have to search hard for anyone who didn't know them) I think. Parents still introduce their children to them though and the film and TV versions are still commonly shown. I think most kids would easily recognize the names of the most famous characters and most of the books can be found in any bookshop. Those few that still actually sell books that is.
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