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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2010 :  22:21:39  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm

Dear Ed and Lady THO,
Is there such a thing as a "fine art" market in Cormyr? If so, just among the nobles and wannabe-nobles? Or is art ownership and appreciation population-wide? If so, how does it differ from rich and powerful people to dirt-poor backcountry peasants?
Thank you.



I was thinking along similar lines the other day, and would like to also ask Ed if there are any art schools anywhere in Faerun, and if so which ones are the most important/influential, and whether or not any of them have any solid connections to the Church of Sune? :)

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2010 :  23:00:37  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Yes, Malcolm and Zandilar, there is an art market. According to Ed:

Nobles always want portraits of themselves and of "important moments" in family history. Which they commission from popular-with-nobles artists.
"Everyone Cormyrean" wants paintings of great kings, usually warriors (Dhalmass, Duar, increasingly Azoun IV), and retired Purple Dragons want paintings of Queen Fee or whoever was queen when they served, plus any victory battle they fought in. Commoners buy prints or the daubs of travelling artists (usually good, but very much the same as innumerable copies done by that artist and competitors), but nobles want DIFFERENT, original paintings of the same things (bigger and better).
Merchants and artists (including musicians, actors) often purchase paintings that catch their eye to inspire them (popular examples are paintings of beautiful men or women, clad or unclad). The wealthiest commission artists to paint lovers or models (club dancers, courtesans, even lowcoin lasses) specifically for them...and there's an increasing trend of artists who paint such subjects doing regular "tours" of settlements all over Cormyr and rural Sembia, selling their wares in markets (usually from a wagon).

. . . Only nobles collect sculptures (usually statuettes), and "art" to the Realms in this time period is realistic artwork, NOT abstract.


All of the above is quoted by me from Ed's notes. I've sent your queries off to him for expansion/a direct answer, to expand on these basics.
I don't recall Ed ever mentioning an art school in Cormyr (Sembia, yes), but I DO remember him talking about artists taking apprentices, particularly as their eyesight and manual dexterity started to fail with advancing age.
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 24 Mar 2010 23:06:42
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2010 :  23:10:50  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Oho, found another mention two pages later:

A popular subject in "daring" or "oldcoin noble" households is THE Purple Dragon (the beast, not a king) in flight or routing elves or invading human armies or orc hordes or tearing apart castles.

So saith Ed. Circa 1986 or so.
love,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30019 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  00:10:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Yes, Malcolm and Zandilar, there is an art market. According to Ed:

Nobles always want portraits of themselves and of "important moments" in family history. Which they commission from popular-with-nobles artists.
"Everyone Cormyrean" wants paintings of great kings, usually warriors (Dhalmass, Duar, increasingly Azoun IV), and retired Purple Dragons want paintings of Queen Fee or whoever was queen when they served, plus any victory battle they fought in. Commoners buy prints or the daubs of travelling artists (usually good, but very much the same as innumerable copies done by that artist and competitors), but nobles want DIFFERENT, original paintings of the same things (bigger and better).
Merchants and artists (including musicians, actors) often purchase paintings that catch their eye to inspire them (popular examples are paintings of beautiful men or women, clad or unclad). The wealthiest commission artists to paint lovers or models (club dancers, courtesans, even lowcoin lasses) specifically for them...and there's an increasing trend of artists who paint such subjects doing regular "tours" of settlements all over Cormyr and rural Sembia, selling their wares in markets (usually from a wagon).

. . . Only nobles collect sculptures (usually statuettes), and "art" to the Realms in this time period is realistic artwork, NOT abstract.


All of the above is quoted by me from Ed's notes. I've sent your queries off to him for expansion/a direct answer, to expand on these basics.
I don't recall Ed ever mentioning an art school in Cormyr (Sembia, yes), but I DO remember him talking about artists taking apprentices, particularly as their eyesight and manual dexterity started to fail with advancing age.
love,
THO



For these paintings of specific royals, what would be considered taboo and/or in poor taste? Obviously, a royal doing something immoral or illegal would be out, but what about a nude of the queen or a painting of Azoun IV wooing (or even doing something harmless, like reading with) one of his countless conquests?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Mar 2010 00:21:00
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  01:07:49  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Yes, Malcolm and Zandilar, there is an art market. According to Ed:

Nobles always want portraits of themselves and of "important moments" in family history. Which they commission from popular-with-nobles artists.
"Everyone Cormyrean" wants paintings of great kings, usually warriors (Dhalmass, Duar, increasingly Azoun IV), and retired Purple Dragons want paintings of Queen Fee or whoever was queen when they served, plus any victory battle they fought in. Commoners buy prints or the daubs of travelling artists (usually good, but very much the same as innumerable copies done by that artist and competitors), but nobles want DIFFERENT, original paintings of the same things (bigger and better).
Merchants and artists (including musicians, actors) often purchase paintings that catch their eye to inspire them (popular examples are paintings of beautiful men or women, clad or unclad). The wealthiest commission artists to paint lovers or models (club dancers, courtesans, even lowcoin lasses) specifically for them...and there's an increasing trend of artists who paint such subjects doing regular "tours" of settlements all over Cormyr and rural Sembia, selling their wares in markets (usually from a wagon).

. . . Only nobles collect sculptures (usually statuettes), and "art" to the Realms in this time period is realistic artwork, NOT abstract.


All of the above is quoted by me from Ed's notes. I've sent your queries off to him for expansion/a direct answer, to expand on these basics.
I don't recall Ed ever mentioning an art school in Cormyr (Sembia, yes), but I DO remember him talking about artists taking apprentices, particularly as their eyesight and manual dexterity started to fail with advancing age.
love,
THO



For these paintings of specific royals, what would be considered taboo and/or in poor taste? Obviously, a royal doing something immoral or illegal would be out, but what about a nude of the queen or a painting of Azoun IV wooing (or even doing something harmless, like reading with) one of his countless conquests?

And as an addendum to Wooly's above query, Ed, I'd also like to know about how such artistic works, and, by extension, the musician/artist/sculptor involved has created and/or endured any controversies that might have come about as a result of their strange works? Any artists who have met bizarre or gruesome ends as a result of such artistic examples? Perhaps a noble might have taken offence when regarding their likeness in a rather unflattering light. How do they then handle the situation?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 25 Mar 2010 01:09:28
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  14:31:40  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Wooly and Sage, Ed sent me this reply to you:

Yes, there have been artists murdered because of their work (though it's rare). Being shunned by most noble patrons is a more common fate. I'll do a proper reply on this as soon as I can snatch the time (embarking on taxes right now).
Re. paintings of royalty: a nude of a current queen, or a scene depicting any current royalty or the immediate parents of current royalty doing something humiliating (unclad, on their knees, being flogged or engaging in sexual acts in which they are the recipient rather than the dominant, for instance) would be considered in the worst of taste, and either kept hidden for private viewing (by the commissioning noble and perhaps one or two trusted friends whom he knows beforehand hold the same views on the royal personage in question) - - or would suffer arrest, fining, and public disgrace (plus burning of the offending painting) at the hands of local, loyal Purple Dragons, even without the royalty ever personally knowing about it. War Wizards and the heralds all act quickly on matters like this, to prevent disparagement of the royal family becoming an everyday, widespread affair.


So saith Ed. Who's promised me an addendum soon.
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 25 Mar 2010 14:32:57
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  14:41:29  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
And here is that promised second bit, much sooner than I'd expected!
Heeeere's Ed:


Azoun IV, however, is a special case. If he's shown casually or wholly clad, talking with women, reading with women, arranging flowers with women, hunting with women, etc., that's all "just fine." If he or they are partially unclad, it's only okay if the scene is him fighting to protect them against a foe (who is NOT an angry husband, it should be pointed out). Nudes or partial nudes of past queens (before Filfaeril) are all right, so long as they are tasteful rather than caricatures or depicted in demeaning poses. (It has been slyly argued that as painters ALWAYS put crowns on the heads of females so the viewer will know they are queens, they are, in fact, never completely nude . . . but heralds and courtiers take the flat view of: showing breasts and/or crotch is a concern, showing legs, "half a haunch," bare arms and shoulders, "the swell of the bosom," and so on, is NOT a matter of concern.
In all cases, if a painter attempts an accurate (to the facts, as much as they are known) depiction of an actual event, this is a partially-mitigating defense against any complaints of "lewd" or "treasonous" art. So if Lady Delnwood fled naked from her bedchamber into the arms of the waiting King Azoun when her drunken sons burst in to wreck the room, that's "okay" as the subject of a painting. Because the King was in reality accompanied by a War Wizard, three courtiers, and a bodyguard of four Purple Dragons, and he and they were all fully clothed, it would NOT be okay for the artist to depict the waiting King, his arms outstretched to Lady Delnwood, as being alone and naked at the time.


So saith Ed. Who will add more when he can.
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  14:46:10  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
I should add one additional bit of lore, drawn from Ed's old notes:

It is an offense to copy an offending piece of art and show the copy "in public," so if a painting is deemed "banned," selling or displaying all copies of it, however inferior, is also a crime. (Note that as all paintings, as opposed to prints, are hand-painted, the copies need not be exact; if the offending elements are reproduced, no matter how badly, changing the setting, colour palette, or other details doesn't make the copy "acceptable."

So saith Ed. This should be obvious, but then there's the saying up in Canada: "Nothing is obvious to a doctor, lawyer, or academic. The rest of us have recourse to something called 'common sense.'"
love to all,
THO
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  15:00:31  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
or a scene depicting any current royalty or the immediate parents of current royalty doing something humiliating (unclad, on their knees, being flogged or engaging in sexual acts in which they are the recipient rather than the dominant, for instance) would be considered in the worst of taste

Would that imply that if the current royalty were the dominant in this sexual act, it would not be 'in the worst of taste'?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'."
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  20:57:31  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Hello all,


Are there any infamous "ressurection men/ bodysnatchers" on the Sword Coast in early 1370's, say in Scornubel, Soubar regions.

Can you tell us of any unique "experimemt creature/construct/mutations wandering anywhere in same areas below or above ground during same time period? I'm thinking many a spell caster tried to augment other beings to make them resistant to magic, able to reflect all magic hurled at them and met with failure 90+% of the time. Did you have any such creatures in your home games? Constructs seems to be most successful in making them proof against magic, I still hope you have tidbits of unique constructs.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2392 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  22:00:09  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
While we're on the subject of Cormyrian artists, I have two more questions to toss onto the pile:

1) Could Ed give us a couple of examples of famous, now-dead painters whose works would be known beyond fellow artists and art geeks, and whose works would be sought after (sort of like Monet or Van Gogh are here). I'm thinking of the ubiquitous "art object" entry in the 2e treasure tables. And if he could give a brief description of the kinds of subjects they liked to paint, that would be great as well.

2) Thinking of famous painters, are there spells that can divine who painted a particular work? If so, how powerful and rare are they? And what impact do they have on the market for forgeries?

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.

Edited by - Hoondatha on 25 Mar 2010 22:03:01
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Faraer
Great Reader

3295 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2010 :  23:44:47  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
I reread the Polyhedron articles on Zhentil Keep today, and wondered what could be done to take such fine material out of obscurity.

Delving into older lore, one finds all those charming and intriguing references to events from Ed's campaign, such as the selection of NPCs in DM's Sourcebook and the roster of Zhentarim laid low by the Knights, from Krey and Tul (magelings?) to Zorkha and Xantriph. Did our Cowled She's character take part in the beholder battles?

And again, in Shadowdale, Shallain Freehold and Blackcreek Crossing, the only known settlements in the dale outside the main village until Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land brought Oakwood Knoll. (The wider dale missed the treatment the others got in the Volo's Guide because the village itself was well treated in the 1993 campaign box.) What's known of the two freeholds? Does the dale have other hamlets, thorps or villages of any size, or is the backland population all in steadings?
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Faraer
Great Reader

3295 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  00:39:48  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
And here's a mystery: the inset map in FR13 Anauroch shows a settlement called Ashabemar existing in 112 DR in the Elven Woods between modern Shadowdale and Mistledale. And a place called "The Holt", both beyond what I took to be the extent of Teshar, and nary a hint (if I didn't miss it) of what these were.
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  07:12:21  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
I'm probably going to hit a titanium clad wall of NDA's here, but let's try anyway: In 'The Many Murders of Manshoon', Talathra, Yhelbruna, Alastra, Ardanth and Yusendre are all referred to by El as daughters, and Talathra calls him father. Are they truly his daughters (or grand-daughters, great to the power of N grand-daughters), or is this just a show of affection between the Elder Chosen and his proteges?
El called Talathra Vaerovree 'the Last Magister'. Was she the Last Magister? The story did take place in 1385, so it would make sense... but it seemed as thought the Spellplague was in stages, not one shockwave, so there might have been another one after her? Also, could any information be shared about her, or any others of El's 'daughters' (Yhelbruna, Alastra, Ardanth and Yusendre) mentioned in the story?
Lastly, and unconnected to The Many Murders of Manshoon - Were there any CHosne of Mystra before Elminster? He is called the Elder Chosen, but might there have been some before him? If so, who? If not, why?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'."
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  11:26:44  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
A question about Ellarian Dawnhorn, the New Velar Constable.
I am trying to put some info on her down. In 4th edition, would she be more accuratelly be known (to those who can make the distinction) as a swordmage, or as a wizard (or sorceress) with additional fighting/rogue skills?
I realize it is a minor difference, but I believe the title 'swordmage', in 4th ed Realms, has a certain status, at least among the Myth Drannor eladrin.

Edit: Sorry, I wrote 'Sheera Goldenleaf' in my original post, but I meant Ellarian Dawnhorn. Sheera (or Shaera?) is a mage/thief (so unlikely a swordmage). Ellarian is a fighter/mage, so could be.

Edit 2: I'm also interested to know what kind of elves (sun, moon, wood, etc) they are (can't find that anywhere).

Edited by - gomez on 26 Mar 2010 12:14:15
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  19:09:25  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Re. the oldest Chosen, wasn't Azuth a Chosen, before ascending to godhood (and well before Elminster)?
BB
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe

Canada
161 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  19:11:54  Show Profile  Visit Baleful Avatar's Homepage Send Baleful Avatar a Private Message
Apropos of the questions about Cormyrean artists, are there any "up and comers" gaining fame in Suzail right now (circa "just pre-Spellplague")? And about how much would one of their paintings cost/be increasing in value over the last few seasons?
Thanks!
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2392 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  19:39:23  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
There are definitely Chosen older than Elminster. After all, Mystryl had Chosen. Not that we know anything about them aside from a gleeful Ed giggle...

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2010 :  23:18:00  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Which leads to wonder if any of Mystryl's Chosen still live pre-spellplague?
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  09:33:54  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
Wasn't Karsus one of them?
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  15:08:01  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Dearest, most honored Ed,
More ELMINSTER MUST DIE! teasers?
Or, failing that, the latest Spin A Yarn?
Pleeeeeeeeze!
BB
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2392 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  15:12:50  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
We don't, IIRC, know anything about Mystryl's Chosen. That said, there's no way Karsus was one. He had no respect for the gods, wouldn't have served one if they asked, and certainly wouldn't have tried to usurp her place if he was a Chosen.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  16:36:18  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by createvmind

Which leads to wonder if any of Mystryl's Chosen still live pre-spellplague?

The Lady Hooded One, ever the mistress of mysteries, once told us re: the fate of some of Mystryl's Chosen:-

" ... you tread into darkly perilous ground, approaching (gasp) a secret of the Realms that has been sitting in plain sight for lo these many years, just waiting for a brilliant scribe to pounce upon.

Heh-heh. Which is a grand way of saying Ed won't answer you directly. You'll have to wait (for some time) for a rather more public answer.

Heh heh heh.

love,
THO"

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  17:26:39  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

We don't, IIRC, know anything about Mystryl's Chosen. That said, there's no way Karsus was one. He had no respect for the gods, wouldn't have served one if they asked, and certainly wouldn't have tried to usurp her place if he was a Chosen.



Actually, I don't believe that's correct. According to the GHotR, Karsus started working on his spell because the Terraseer told him of the prophecy that Mystryl would soon face her greatest challenge. He developed the spell to take her place so he would face the challenge in her place, not realizing that he was the challenge.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2010 :  18:08:52  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

We don't, IIRC, know anything about Mystryl's Chosen. That said, there's no way Karsus was one. He had no respect for the gods, wouldn't have served one if they asked, and certainly wouldn't have tried to usurp her place if he was a Chosen.



Actually, I don't believe that's correct. According to the GHotR, Karsus started working on his spell because the Terraseer told him of the prophecy that Mystryl would soon face her greatest challenge. He developed the spell to take her place so he would face the challenge in her place, not realizing that he was the challenge.



Karsus is in Netheril Age trilogy and is written as a child-like idiot savant spoiled elitist and indeed had no respect for the gods or anything else for that matter.
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