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 When did Vecna die?
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Hellkeepa
Seeker

Norway
61 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2009 :  17:54:51  Show Profile  Visit Hellkeepa's Homepage Send Hellkeepa a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
HELLo!

As a part of writing my campaign, I've tried to find out in what year Vecna was betrayed by Kas. So far I've only found a hint as to what century it was, courtesy of Wikipedia. However, I don't know if it's accurate, and thus I humbly ask the emminent sages of this board for some of their knowledge.

Also, my campaign will be centered around the Time of Troubles, 1357 DR (577 CY). So any events of major interest concerning Vecna at this period of time would also be highly appreciated.

Happy playin'!

Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own.

Edited by - Hellkeepa on 21 Sep 2009 05:06:31

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2009 :  19:16:39  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Has there been any official ties between Vecna and the Realms? I would love to help here, but I am a bit lacking in Greyhawk knowledge, so I am a bit limited on this question.
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Hellkeepa
Seeker

Norway
61 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2009 :  20:20:43  Show Profile  Visit Hellkeepa's Homepage Send Hellkeepa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HELLo!

Yep, there has. Actually, it's a 3-way intersection between FR, GH and Ravenloft.
You'll find all the relevant sources in the Spelljammer Timeline (http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/history/pw_timeline.html), under the heading "Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms". That's where I've confirmed the fact that 577 CY is the same as 1357 DR.

Anyway, what I try to confirm, as accurately as possible, is the following things:
  • Vecnas current realm; Has he been sent to Ravenloft, or still in GH.

  • Vecnas position in divinity at this time, if in Ravenloft.

  • The size, distribution and current organisation of his cult/faith.

Things that'll help me tie the events of the campaign accurately into the story of Vecna, or rather his following, in other words.

Happy playin'!

Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own.

Edited by - Hellkeepa on 21 Sep 2009 05:17:34
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2009 :  22:39:35  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excuse me, but a general problem comes to mind (though this is a Spelljammer novice writing): does time really pass at exactly the same rate in two different crystal spheres? Can it be completely excluded that 365 Oerth days, for example, equal 361, or 369 days on Toril? Are the planets really exactly the same size etc.?
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
668 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2009 :  23:56:04  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just one comment to start with - the article puts 1361 DR at 581 CY (which means 1357 DR would be 577 CY). Our own Brian R. James puts 560 CY at 1357 DR (see the Temporal Chronology of the Primes ). I am more inclinded to go with 1357 DR = 577 CY, as I am assuming that "current time" for all TSR campaign worlds is more or less the same. Vecna's attempt to achieve dominance is set just before the Greyhawk Wars (in real-life time, it was the last adventure published before the Greyhawk Wars boxed set, and the From the Ashesboxed set that followed that one), and is described in the adventure WGA4-Vecna Lives!, which also contains some details about his cult (all in 2nd Edition stats, of course). In general Vecna Lives! is considered to take place in 581 CY (the Wikipedia Greyhawk Timeline sets Vecna Lives! at this date).

Soooo... To answer your questions re the Present:
1) and 2) Vecna is still in Oerth, not in Ravenloft, and he's a demipower.
3) Details of his cult (including descriptions of his priesthood were included in WGA4-Vecna Lives!. The Wikipedia article on Vecna summarizes the hierarchy of the cult as described in Vecna Lives!.

As far as I know, the exact date of Kas's betrayal has never been determined in canon (including any articles written by Gary Gygax in Dragon Magazine). It's one of those "in prehistoric times" kind of things, that set general background for Greyhawk, and could have taken place at any time in the past, and a change in date would not have an influence on the present. So I would say - whatever suits you will be just fine.

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2009 :  00:05:14  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All these chronologies assume that on all prime material planes, time runs exactly parallel and at the same pace: is this anywhere explicity stated or strongly implied (and a reasonable explanation given why that is so)? Otherwise, they are based on problematic presumptions. Shall we assume 100% identical astronomical conditions (= earth-like) for all material planes? That strains credulity a bit... if no other explanation is given.
For instance, the fact that time runs at different paces on different planes is something which is well-known (though the case may be different with primes).
This alternative would imply that there is *no* exact correspondence between any given year/month/day/minute/second on Oerth, Toril etc.

Edited by - Thieran on 21 Sep 2009 00:07:15
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
668 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2009 :  00:08:33  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

Excuse me, but a general problem comes to mind (though this is a Spelljammer novice writing): does time really pass at exactly the same rate in two different crystal spheres? Can it be completely excluded that 365 Oerth days, for example, equal 361, or 369 days on Toril? Are the planets really exactly the same size etc.?



It cannot be completely excluded, but it's always been more or less assumed that the major campaign worlds (Oerth, Krynn, Toril, Mystara) have similar timeframes (365-day years, more or less; even Sigil gets a 365-day "year", with Mystara being the odd one out with 360 days), probably because that made it a bit easier for players to relate to, back in the early days of gaming. The planets' sizes are not exactly the same, but Krynn, Oerth, and Toril are (canonically) all roughly the same size as planet Earth. I think Oerth might be a bit bigger. For exact sizes of the planets, and the other planets of their respective systems, check out (if you can get them) Realmspace, Greyspace, and Krynnspace sourcebooks. You could also check Beyond the Moons, the best Spelljammer resource website, that has also taken on board a number of defunct websites.

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
668 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2009 :  00:14:26  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

All these chronologies assume that on all prime material planes, time runs exactly parallel and at the same pace: is this anywhere explicity stated or strongly implied (and a reasonable explanation given why that is so)? Otherwise, they are based on problematic presumptions. Shall we assume 100% identical astronomical conditions (= earth-like) for all material planes? That strains credulity a bit... if no other explanation is given.
For instance, the fact that time runs at different paces on different planes is something which is well-known (though the case may be different with primes).
This alternative would imply that there is *no* exact correspondence between any given year/month/day/minute/second on Oerth, Toril etc.



In 2nd Edition, all major campaign worlds were part of the same prime material plane, so the same conditions would apply. Not all planets in the Known Spheres were Earth clones, though - huge varieties (including some really off-the-wall ones, such as a world forming a solid ring around its sun, plus, of course, the shattered worlds of the Astromundi cluster).

So there's no particular reason for the "Big Three" to be astronomically identical. One has to keep in mind that these three worlds were developed independently, and at different times, and that only later (90s) attempts were made to merge them all into the TSR Multiverse, through Spelljammer and Planescape.

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2009 :  00:15:27  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for your excellent explanations.
It had occurred to me that the timeframes of major campaign-worlds are each based on Earth to make it easier for players to relate to ;)
But exactly that is a bit unsatisfactory (suspension of disbelief etc.)...
Still, I would assume that there must be a *slight* deviation (seconds?), which of course accumulates the more time progresses.

Edited by - Thieran on 21 Sep 2009 00:16:59
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Hellkeepa
Seeker

Norway
61 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2009 :  04:31:22  Show Profile  Visit Hellkeepa's Homepage Send Hellkeepa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HELLo!

Ah, wonderful! Thank you so much, Thauramarth, this was exactly what I was looking for.
Even got some extra info, about the backstory of the timelines. I was going to make an executive decision on this anyway, for simplicity's sake. Not as if my players would be too concerned, or even know, about the flow of different timelines. ;-)

My hat's off.

PS: Thanks for correcting me on the years. Don't know how, or why, but I managed to write down the wrong one. :-(

PPS: As far as Kas' betrayal, the Wikipedia article about Acererak seems to place it in "the fourth century before common year". I assume they're speaking of -400 to -301 CY, sometime. Unfortunately, no sources on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acererak#History

Happy playin'!

Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own.

Edited by - Hellkeepa on 21 Sep 2009 05:17:09
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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2009 :  08:01:50  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought he died between editions, 1371 - 1372 DR

z455t
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Aerik DeVallo
Learned Scribe

USA
87 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2009 :  20:35:45  Show Profile Send Aerik DeVallo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Vecna is a realms-god, since he's not in FRCS. Replaced by Shar and Velsharoon, according to cannon lore and afore-mentioned source.
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Hellkeepa
Seeker

Norway
61 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2009 :  21:21:10  Show Profile  Visit Hellkeepa's Homepage Send Hellkeepa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HELLo!

I know he's not a realms god, he's an Greyhawk god. However, there is an overlap between these two realms, related to Vecna himself. Official realms lore. As noted above, I just wanted to try to put a timeline on his history.

Happy playin'!

Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2138 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2013 :  10:51:00  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, a date was never given. In Vecna Lives! this is what it says about Vecna's time:

"He dates back to a time of near-prehistory in Greyhawk, befor the migrations, before the wars between Suel and Baklunish, perhaps even before the ascendancy of the Suloise Empire itself. He is a figure more of legend than fact and , like all legends, there are embellishments, exaggerations, distortions, contradictions, and confusions attached to his name."

Check this page for a list of works with Vecna and notes on what is there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna#Publishing_history

Vecna Lives (Greyhawk), Vencna Reborn (Ravenloft), and Die Vecna Die (Greyhawk/Ravenloft/Planescape) are the big three. Personally I hate that they made him a power in 3rd edition, which basically said to anyone who ran those adventures everything you did and the 100 bucks you spent on buying those products from TSR doesn't matter, since WTC is too lazy to come up with a new scary/mean god on our own. In Die Vecna Die, he was finally beaten - his whole plan to become a powerful god ended with his ejection from Sigil.
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