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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 19:18:18
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It's to broad a topic for me to do a forum search on believe me I have tried. I even have bound the candle keep compendium on dragons into a book and will be searching it today. My question is do all dragons have the ability to shape ship shift / take human form. I know for a fact that metallic dragons can do so I've seen ( so to speak ) Golds, Silvers and Coppers do it Just to name a few. I'm not sure about chromatic Dragons however. I've never seen a red or green change form but I know blue's can and I seen at least one black appear as an elve but never a red or a green. So it may just be a preference thing. Any input as always is much appreciated.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 19:25:18
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| Chromatic dragons don't have the shape shifting ability gold, silver, and *bronze* dragons have (and neither have copper and brass dragons). They have to use the appropriate spell (if they know it) or other means to change their form. Steel dragons can shapeshift, too (5 times per day), and the Songdragon can shapechange at will (but only between dragon and one specific human form). |
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Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 07 Sep 2009 19:26:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 20:00:36
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It's all in the monster write-ups, particularly the older ones.
Generally, if a chromatic dragon is shapeshifting, it's a spell, not an innate ability. |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 20:40:50
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| Ah thank you very much for the information. In all seriousness I think it speaks to the quality of there genetic superiority that dragons can mate with nearly any species and produce off spring. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 22:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Ah thank you very much for the information. In all seriousness I think it speaks to the quality of there genetic superiority that dragons can mate with nearly any species and produce off spring.
That wasn't as prevalent in 2E... 2E's half-dragons weren't the same as 3.x's half-dragons, and 2E didn't have dragons imitating Zeus and mating with everything they could grab. In that regard, I preferred 2E. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 23:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Ah thank you very much for the information. In all seriousness I think it speaks to the quality of there genetic superiority that dragons can mate with nearly any species and produce off spring.
That wasn't as prevalent in 2E... 2E's half-dragons weren't the same as 3.x's half-dragons, and 2E didn't have dragons imitating Zeus and mating with everything they could grab. In that regard, I preferred 2E.
I agree. I can see how there were tons of half-demons/half-devils running about of all kinds, but half-dragons and half-celestials? Just didn't make much sense. |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 01:04:33
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| Oh I don't know silver dragon meets female paladin... Long moon light flights and passionate discussion about the finer points of justice. Next thing you know little Draco is born. There is a very good story in realms of war with a half dragon Lt. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 04:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Oh I don't know silver dragon meets female paladin... Long moon light flights and passionate discussion about the finer points of justice. Next thing you know little Draco is born. There is a very good story in realms of war with a half dragon Lt.
Well, yeah, something like that works. But 3.x made half-dragon a template, so -- by the rules -- you could have a half-dragon half-snail or a half-dragon half-flumph. And one has to wonder about the circumstances leading to these conceptions...
Half-human or demihuman and half-dragon, fine. But half-dragon half-troll? Why? |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 09:52:46
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There was a adventrure from Dungeon that included a Half-Minotaur Half Blackdragon NPC, that the party was supposed to kill.
The background was that his daddy (the dragon) was trying to produce the perfect offspring mixing the abilities of other races. To his demise all the offspring he produced had no wings.
3.x edition may introduced Dragon offspring as an templete but let us not forget that its up the DM if he exploit it, or not. I could not imagine my realms with half dragons running around, one or two maybe but after all dragons are a near mythical race and should be treated like so |
Edited by - Marquant Volker on 08 Sep 2009 10:01:31 |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 14:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Oh I don't know silver dragon meets female paladin... Long moon light flights and passionate discussion about the finer points of justice. Next thing you know little Draco is born. There is a very good story in realms of war with a half dragon Lt.
Well, yeah, something like that works. But 3.x made half-dragon a template, so -- by the rules -- you could have a half-dragon half-snail or a half-dragon half-flumph. And one has to wonder about the circumstances leading to these conceptions...
Half-human or demihuman and half-dragon, fine. But half-dragon half-troll? Why?
Your a dragon and you need a small army with a few key members that are loyal out of more then just fear. Goblin kin breed like wild fire and give birth in litters like pack animals. There off spring are big, powerful, stupid and easily cowed. So a black or a blue preforms a shape change spell finds a few females a little rape goes a long way and bobs your uncle. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 14:59:11
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Well, here's my way of looking at it: Dragons are big, bad, arrogant critters. Even the most benevolent dragon tends to regard him- or herself as being vastly superior to all other intelligent species, save for other dragons.
So with dragons regarding themselves as superior to everything around them, dalliances with "lesser" races aren't something that's going to happen all that oft. Yeah, a particularly pretty elf or human may catch your eye, but that's going to be about it.
Sure, your dragon could want loyal half-dragon half-goblins, and we do have stuff like that in canon. But that should be the exception. The way 3.x set it up, you'd think dragons were, as I said earlier, imitating Zeus and pouncing on anything that was nearby.
And don't get me started on the whole "dragonspawn" thing... Krynn did the only decent dragonspawn. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 15:30:27
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I think the only way to justify the 3e "half-dragon on anything" approach is to make it the result of magical experimentation, rather than actual breeding. Just like how the sarrukh kept trying to make better and better servitor races, the ancient dragon lords could have done the same. I can think of some good reasons to as well, like making a small army of trolls that are half red dragon, and therefore resistant to fire, to go beat up on your red dragon neighbor.
However, I think this could only be the case back in the Age of Dragons, when dragons were even more arrogant, and more importantly had the time to spend centuries on this sort of thing without worrying about pesky adventurers. Since the fall of those empires, most if not all of these abominations would have either died out, or (more likely) been exterminated by the enraged servants/slaves of the dragons.
These days, I'd go much more along the lines with 2e, where half-dragons were exceedingly rare, born from love, occasionally dalliance (probably young male dragons wanting to "try something new"), and occasionally cold-blooded desire for an agent who could go and do things the parent could not (which is where most drow-dragons would come from). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 19:49:24
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Or you could just simply play a standard race and play a sorcerer and skip the template entirely and just say you are a half-dragon from a dragon mating with your mother and look completely normal human with a few odd physical changes. Like red skin, purple eyes, and green hair (or whatever wouldn't be the norm for the race that is one) and just be done with it. Maybe give them the ability to carry things as if they were a large creature to signify their supernatural strength and a boost to their magical prowess by giving them either some daily spells to use or boost their innate magical abilities if they are a caster.
Personally, I think the template is just broken and shouldn't be allowed to be played by anyone. And I don't really see why anyone would quest with someone that was a half-dragon that looked like they do in the book. I feel sorry for whatever mother gave birth to them. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 20:40:54
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Actually, I think exactly the opposite about the template: that it's broken and no one would ever play it because it's so weak. At least not without LA buy-back, and probably not even then. I mean, c'mon! It's +3 LA! You're more than a spell level behind, and don't even think about trying to be any sort of fighter. It's just this side of worthless.
But that's mechanics. Image-wise, well, maybe I just have a fondness for the cartoon, but I always thought half-dragons would look something like the Gargoyles do. Especially if they take (or are given) the dragon wings and tail feats. If I was running a 3e campaign, I'd give both for free, considering how badly off the PC would be. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 21:48:25
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That is partly why I think it is broken. They would've been better just not trying to craft a system for it. All it ever did was make more headaches then it was actually worth and just left it up to the DM to decide if he/she would allow it to be played.
I just solved the ECL problem by going off its actual CR or if it added a +1 CR I just said they had a monster level of 1 and to adjust accordingly. I usually never had a problem keeping game balance using that methode.
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 22:37:01
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| Well, thematically, that works. They're trying to get in touch with their dragon side. Mechanically, however... |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 14:20:42
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| I think the half-dragon template was really an attempt to collect all the various dragon hybrids into a single lump. Besides human and demi-human half-dragons, there used to be all sorts, like dracolisks for example. The half-dragon template was supposed to take care of all that in 3.X. For those of you who like unique monsters, though, I converted a number of draconic hybrids. Follow the "my creations" link in my sig for the PDF with conversions and other information. Alaundo is also graciously hosting that PDF here at the Keep if you prefer that. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 17:17:19
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There really wasn't that many dragon hybrids in Ad&d and those that were, were setting based or uniquely designed, making a template a bit forced.
As for creatures like the Dracolisk; that becomes a bit like making a horse-template because of centaurs and hippogriffs. Looking back at 3ed. I am surprised that stuff like horse-template and goat-template didn't show up. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2009 : 19:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]
Half-human or demihuman and half-dragon, fine. But half-dragon half-troll? Why?
Really weird fetishes? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2009 : 14:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
There really wasn't that many dragon hybrids in Ad&d and those that were, were setting based or uniquely designed, making a template a bit forced.
As for creatures like the Dracolisk; that becomes a bit like making a horse-template because of centaurs and hippogriffs. Looking back at 3ed. I am surprised that stuff like horse-template and goat-template didn't show up.
Well, I make no comment about how good the template is, just what the motivation seemed to be. That said, I'm a monster junkie, so the more the merrier!
No horse-template, but there was a tauric one for making centaur-kin and other beasties.  |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 06:07:16
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| Aye, I actually prefer the 2nd ed half-dragons, as well- it was limited to the three NATURAL shape-shifting dagons (gold, silver, and bronze, with the addition of deep, song, and steel dragons in FR), because at the time, only dragons with the natural ability were even considered ABLE to cross-breed with anything else. All other crosses (like the dracolisk mentioned earlier) were from magical experiments by wizards using dragons. And these were always unique creatures. And 2nd ed only allowed elf, dwarf, gnome, or human hybrids (drow also in FR, because of the deep dragons). They were much simpler to make in 2nd, and actually more balanced, too, because for every dragon trait they gained (as they leveled up) they would loose a trait from the other race. which meant that you had to decide whether or not to take dragon traits, and which ones were most useful to the character. Plus, they did not look nearly so strange, so they were better to play. I personally have two of them (twin brother and sister), and aside from converting the basic template, I did not change either of them at all from 2nd ed in appearance or abilities. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 07:13:26
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Dragons capable of assuming human/demihuman form - Neutral (amber), Metallic (bronze, silver, gold/astral; mercury, steel/Greyhawk, adamantite), Gem (amethyst, topaz), Linnorm (corpse tearer, Midgard, sea), deep - plus of course any who can use spells or psionics to shapechange, plus undead versions (ghost, dracolich) ... I couldn't find any entry for Song dragons in my MM/MC books.
The half-dragon monster entry assumes parentage is bronze, silver, or gold (and elf, dwarf, gnome); though there's no requirement for these to be the only possible half-dragon types.
I also found dragon-kin:
"These creatures are rumored to be very distant cousins of dragons. Somewhere along the evolutionary chain, they developed humanoid characteristics. They still display the dragonlike face and wings, yet they also have a humanoid form." |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 07:35:57
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Song Dragons were originally from one of the 2nd ed supplements- can't remember which ATM. The original half-dragon was from the Council of Wyrms book, which only allowed gold, silver, or bronze. (NONE of the gem dragons could naturally polymorph!) Linorms also did not have that ability, IIRC. Nor did mercury ones, in the old MM entry, I believe. Ambers might be able to shape-shift, but were never listed as a possible dragonic parent. Polymorph spells did NOT allow dragons of ANY kind to breed with other species, as it was a magical transformation, not a natural ability of their race, so did not work. Also, undead dragons of ANY kind are incapable of producing offspring- they're undead, and thus have no biological functions.
Although it is more limiting in the types that could be made, it also makes them more rare and unique when they do appear. That is one thing I dislike about 3.0 and later, because it introduced so many different kinds of dragon-blooded "races". Also, the original races that could breed were simply elf, gnome, and dwarf, as those were the ones detailed as "dragon-kindred" (a PC kit, NOT the creatures from the MC volume- which formed a bond with a dragon mount) in the CoW book. This was actually the main reason they were given as half-dragon parent races- they could form the kindred-bond with a dragon. Humans were not used in that book, except as a race of far-off "dragon-slayers" in the setting it detailed (Io's Blood Isles). They were brought in as possible crosses later. (Probably because humans seem to be able breed with EVERYTHING... Much like in Star Trek.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 08:37:28
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Ah, I don't have any Council of Wyrms stuff; I was going strictly off 2E MM/MC sources.
Yeah, the description for gems says they aren't supposed to be able to polymorph without spells, but adult amethysts can shapechange (as druids; 3/day, one form can be "mammal") and topaz's can use psionic metamorphisis (until they run out of PSPs). Young adult ambers can shapechange (as druids, 3/day). Adult mercury's can polymorph self (2/day), adamantites can polymorph self (3/day, permanently, but can revert to dragon form without restriction). Linnorm corpse tearers can polymorph self (at will), Midgards can shapechange (1/day), and great wyrm seas can shapechange (2/day). Of course, not all of these have dispositions which make them friendly (or even tolerant) towards human/demihuman races, nor would they all make good parents (by our standards). Furthermore, not all of them are native to the Realms, at least not in sizeable populations (adamantites rarely leave the lofty celestial planes; I don't even know if Linnorms are present on Toril).
I'd never considered polymorphed creatures being unable to conceive offspring, while shapechanged creatures (especially the druid-like ones) shouldn't suffer from this problem. I kind of agree with this idea, but is it a canon rule?
I didn't even think about the context when I was listing the undead types, duh, doh ... though now I'm beginning to wonder if they might be able to breed with fiends (through some kind of lower planar necro nastiness) or even produce some sort of dhampir half-dragon progeny. Of course, these questions ignore "normal" dragon biology entirely. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Dec 2010 08:39:43 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 08:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah, I don't have any Council of Wyrms stuff; I was going strictly off 2E MM/MC sources.
Yeah, the description for gems says they aren't supposed to be able to polymorph without spells, but adult amethysts can shapechange (as druids; 3/day, one form can be "mammal") and topaz's can use psionic metamorphisis (until they run out of PSPs). Young adult ambers can shapechange (as druids, 3/day). Adult mercury's can polymorph self (2/day), adamantites can polymorph self (3/day, permanently, but can revert to dragon form without restriction). Linnorm corpse tearers can polymorph self (at will), Midgards can shapechange (1/day), and great wyrm seas can shapechange (2/day). Of course, not all of these have dispositions which make them friendly (or even tolerant) towards human/demihuman races, nor would they all make good parents (by our standards). Furthermore, not all of them are native to the Realms, at least not in sizeable populations (adamantites rarely leave the lofty celestial planes; I don't even know if Linnorms are present on Toril).
I'd never considered polymorphed creatures being unable to conceive offspring, while shapechanged creatures (especially the druid-like ones) shouldn't suffer from this problem. I kind of agree with this idea, but is it a canon rule?
I didn't even think about the context when I was listing the undead types, duh, doh ... though now I'm beginning to wonder if they might be able to breed with fiends (through some kind of lower planar necro nastiness) or even produce some sort of dhampir half-dragon progeny. Of course, these questions ignore "normal" dragon biology entirely.
Which types are undead? Half-vampire half-dragon half-X would be awesome! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 08:58:35
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| I imagine a vampiric dragon would be a fearsomely ravenous predator. A dragonfiend would just be disgustingly dangerous. A combination of the two seems incomprehensibly ridiculous. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 09:50:30
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Hmm, as I recall, Corpse Tearer and Midgard Linnorms were both unique dragons. That is to say, they were not a "race" of dragons, but two individual dragon "demi-gods" of a sort. Although they might be able to polymorph, they would have niehter the inclination nor the temperament to breed with anything. As I recall, both are extremely vicious and cruel. They'd both be more likely to EAT a humanoid than to mate with one. Also, I don't believe any of the linnorms are found on Toril, so it's probably a moot point.
As to your question, Arik, it's not a question of polymorph vs shape-change (in 2nd ed, the only difference was the level of the spell and its ability to change to ANY shape, rather than just another creature) it's whether or not the ability was natural instead of a spell. Any dragon that could NATURALLY polymorph (or shapechange, if you prefer) could create offspring with another species. Those that must rely on spells (and psionic "spells" were included in this, BTW) could not. And yes, it was a canon rule. Incidentally, the CoW book went into a lot of detail about how dragons reproduce, with egg gestation and incubation times, hatching rates (some do not hatch and the dragon fetuses die), number of eggs laid, frequency of mating and fertility, etc. Also went into the problems encountered by half-dragon offspring. In 2nd ed, they would only RARELY be tolerated by either side, simply because of the difference in parental size abilities, etc. They were generally shunned by the dragon, if not killed outright, and outcasts from the humanoid parent's community. Only a rare few might actually be accepted and raised by the dragon, mostly to have a "vassel" to go among lesser races. They were still viewed with extreme distaste, however.
There is a vampiric dragon in Year of Rogue Dragons- Brimstone, a smoke drake vampire. (Not humanoid, just a blood-drinking wyrm!) However, to the best of my knowledge, an undead dragon would not be able to sire offspring with another species. (It's an interesting side-note that female dragons NEVER produce offspring from other races, regardless of their shape- it kills the offspring the moment they resume their true shape!) However, IF a half-fiend dragon LATER became a vampire or some such, then it might be possible. Not sure if a half-vampir half-dragon would even be possible, unless the mother was transformed by a vampire just before giving birth to the half-dragon child. A draconic Blade? Hmmm.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 10:33:40
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The Linnorms are Norse dragons, I can't see them being present on Toril at all, except possibly in the North (which is already populated by a lot of chromatics) or possibly being brought over from Abeir.
"CoW" book? My best source for dragon reproduction/etc is FOR1 Draconomicon.
Dragonfiends would be awfully vicious. Their draconic traits might be lessened but they'd get some hellfire, fiendish resistances, and maybe even the ability to gate in more fiends, plus a healthy dose of lower planar evil bastard psychology. Maybe they'd be dragonborn cambions, maybe they'd be fiendish dragons (with bigger teeth, claws, horns, wings, and attitude), bad news either way. Quite nasty if they get vampired. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 14:55:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
"CoW" book? My best source for dragon reproduction/etc is FOR1 Draconomicon.
Council of Wyrms. Originally a boxed set, then a hardcover book. It gave us some good rules for role-playing dragons (and I think those rules were great for customizing draconic NPCs), and was the first place we got half-dragons. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 13:36:30
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| In one of my sources it states that Steel Dragons in humanoid form are always able to recognize each other. How is this done? Some type of dragon pheromone perhaps? Could, say, a Steel Dragon recognize a song or drow dragon in humanoid form? What about a half-dragon? Could they recognize a shapechanged dragon? Would a non-detection spell work to keep them hidden? Or maybe some type of olfactory illusion? |
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Dragon Shape Shifting
