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Nevermore
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 23:52:03
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I'm planning a 3.5 ed. campaign that revolves around the Crown of Narfell (the original one), but I'm finding myself in trouble while looking for information related to ancient Narfell, and to the final war between that empire and Raumathar.
This is problematic because it was my intention to introduce a first group of characters involved in the final years of that human nation, to plant the seeds for a story that will involve the PCs (who act during the 3.5 timeframe).
While the GHotR talks about the last battle, where Kossuth was summoned and wiped everyone away, I need to know a little more things:
1. a "surprise attack" of the Raumathari army is mentioned. Is there more info about it?
2. did they invade Narfell? If yes, from where?
3. is there a place where I can find more lore about ancient Narfell? Something akin to Dreams of the Red Wizards would be great.
4. etc etc.
I guess, to sum it up, that I need to gather a lot of the relevant lore, almost as if I was planning to make people play when Narfell still existed. Can you suggest me some handbooks where I can find this empire fleshed out?
Thanks.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 00:45:21
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Check my thread.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2009 : 16:46:14
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copied post below by Ed Greenwood (via The Hooded One)
(about Raumathari)
Well met, gentles all. Ed hath returned from his venture into Toronto (which no doubt involved a lot of wild and crazy driving that he thankfully still takes in stride, after twenty years of two-hundred-miles daily commuting) having enjoyed his reading at the Merrill Collection immensely. As promised, his first reply via me shall be the long-awaited Krafus query about Raumathar.
Hi, Krafus. Sorry for the wait. Well, please remember we’re dealing with sketchy ancient lore here, and therefore are speaking in generalities. The Raumathari began as a mounted, nomadic people (much as their age-old rivals the Nars did, and later returned to), and became skilled fighters, specializing in lance and sling-work from horseback, and later the use of throwing knives (BIG throwing knives, curved like the kukris of the real-world Gurkhas) and small horse-bows.
There were sorcerers among the Raumathari, and eventually some of these rose to become battle-leaders. The Raumathari, by the way, respected personal ability over gender or family, which was one of the reasons they grew to wealth, power, and sophistication so quickly: they paid collective attention to new ideas and successes, seldom subverting them due to jealousies, clan loyalties, or corrupt desires to remain in power.
The brightest Raumathari sorcerers saw that their spells were limited by their own inspiration and experimentations (and that opportunities to do the latter in anything close to safety were VERY limited) and set about trying to capture and even seduce wizards from other realms and peoples, so as to gain access to existing magical knowledge.
In a few (but enough) cases, these attempts were successful, and (again, the Raumathari respecting ability over origins; there was very little negative opinion of ‘outlander’ wizards) in a few generations the Raumathari had trained up respectable numbers of wizards from among their own people.
Yes, one COULD make a “Raumathari battle-wizard” a prestige class, but I wouldn’t, because I view them as varying so much in ability from individual to individual (see two paragraphs below). Raumathari battle-wizards should be dual-classed wizard/fighters, always beginning as fighters and then, once they demonstrated both interest and aptitude, slowly learning useful-in-battle spells from fellow fighters who’d already mastered some magic.
Those Raumathari wizards and sorcerers who had no taste for battle wouldn’t be battle-wizards: they’d be tapestry-makers or woodcarvers or scribes or whatever, who were also wizards or sorcerers.
As for questions about organization, tactics, favoured magic items, and typical levels: forgive me, but this is an overly modern, real-world way of looking at things. To me, it seems like asking: “All of the men in the world: how are they organized, what are their tactics, and what items do they most often use?”
The Raumathari began as nomadic warriors and achieved early success as mercenaries. They valued individual achievement, and the sharing of useful skills and knowledge throughout all Raumathari . . . so there were no “typical levels” of anyone or anything, and (aside from mobility, striking from horseback and always moving in battle -- until they had cities to defend) their tactics varied greatly from group to group, following what had worked for that particular group, and experimenting with what they’d heard had worked for other groups.
Always of great importance among the Raumathari were sorcerers (and later wizards, too) who could use magic to communicate across great distances, between Raumathari communities and armies and caravans.
So a Raumathari battle group would be a cavalry unit organized around, and protecting, those Raumathari who had communication and healing magic, and led by the most competent battle-veterans. Sorcerers and wizards among them would hurl spells from horseback, or halt while others held their horses, dismount, cast spells as swiftly as possible, and ride on again.
One of the reasons Raumathar ultimately fell was that the Raumathari developed very few magic items, so what they did have would be whatever they’d seized from others or gained in trade.
I suppose you could describe a lot of Raumathari tactics as “hit and run.” They were particularly fond of striking unexpectedly from the rear, and then vanishing again, riding off to rush in later, again and again, rather than standing to fight and be hammered at by a prepared foe in prepared formations and terrain position.
I suppose a typical Raumathari battle-wizard would have four or five levels as some sort of warrior (if you have or use prestige classes for mounted archers, apply them) before gaining a level as a wizard, and thereafter progress as opportunities afforded (both for magical tutelage and for battle experience).
So if a battle-group was thirty or forty riders strong, about a dozen would be low-level novices (as some sort of warrior, with no spellcasting ability), three or so would be powerful fighter/wizard dual-classes, another two would be good riders who were either clerics or arcane spellcasters with long-range communication or translocation (teleport) magics, and the rest would be whatever mounted warrior class you think best fits, of levels 3 through 7, with a quarter to a third of them also having a few levels as a wizard or a sorcerer.
I hope this helps. Eric or George or anyone else, feel free to jump in and augment or correct, if lore exists that contradicts this ‘genesis of the Raumathari’ view. I know that from its nomadic beginnings, Raumathar became a briefly-flourishing great realm, and its character could well have changed, until battle-wizards DID have codified tactics, ranks, organization, and typical levels or spells.
So saith Ed. News to me, a player of a present-Realms-day Knight who spent most of her time plunging from frying pans into fires, or vice versa. :}
More from Ed very soon,
THO
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2009 : 18:43:27
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I get the idea that the Narfell Empire originally occupied the territory west of the Sunrise Mountains, and the Raumathar Empire the region to the east of those Mountains. Both groups would have been Imaskari survivor-states, but the Raumathar was better-situated to take advantage on any magics left-behind by the Artificers (at least two were known to occupy towers around the Great ice sea - which was the Raumathar's 'stomping grounds'). Bare in mind that this doesn't mean that they were the same as the Imaskari ethnically - the Imaskari themselves were originally a Mujhari (Zakharan) people, whlst many of their 'subjects' were of other ethnic groups; inlcuding Mulan, Gur (modern-day Raumviran), Taangan (Tuigan), Shou (Interloper), Wu (Lung) and perhaps even Dathite (Chondathan), Turami (in the Shar region), and Mar (Utter east).
Anyhow, eventually the two came into conflict, probably in the region north and west of the Lake of Mists. It seems the Raumathar had some early successes in the south, and had taken-over the region just south of Narfell, causing the Narfelli to then take an interest in that region themselves (assume some battles over the Thayan Plateau, which would have been occupied by Centaur tribes at that time). At some point it appeas the Raumathari pushed all the way into southern Rashemen and perhaps parts of Thesk and the Vast.
It was at that point - in fear of being surrounded by the magically superior (Raumathar had some of Imaskar's construct tech) Rumathari that the desperate Narfelli turned to Fiendish help... and the tide of the war turned. There is a battle-scene in Frostfell that describes this turn of events admirably. It appears the Narfell, for a time, began to win, and managed to push the Raumathari back across the mountains into the Taan.
Things escalated, as war always does, and the Raumatahri themselves turned to Outsiders for help, after capturing one of the Narfelli Demonbinders (Gaugan) and turning him to their cause (or so they thought). In the end, the Fiends had the last laugh, for as more and more of them were brought into the Realms, both empires were consumed and wiped-out.
Besides their use of Imaskari construct technology, they also had their own Druidic-like Mages, and at some point it appears that they were able to use 'nature magic' to 'cage' the demons of the Narfelli (tieing some of this to the Acorn of Wo Mei and the Copper Demon of Troos).
A lot of supposition there, but it's all based on what little canon is floating around. If and when I ever complete my History of the Hordelands, thats the jist of what I will be putting in it, in order to tie many disparate pieces of lore together. Also, both the Raumathari and Narfell peoples are decendents of the ancient Gur people who once controlled the entire area around Yal Tengri (Great Ice Sea), so although they were bitter enemies, they were also very close ethnically (at least, thats how I'm seeing it play-out - both groups seem similar to our RW eastern and western Slavic groups). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jul 2009 18:56:23 |
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Nevermore
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2009 : 19:28:25
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| Ohh this is some interesting stuff you posted guys... Thanks a lot! |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 02:51:22
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| GK, where is this thread you speak of, i was wanting to post more info but didn't want to post anything redundant |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 08:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
GK, where is this thread you speak of, i was wanting to post more info but didn't want to post anything redundant
I thought it was in mine but is is actually here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427&whichpage=34&SearchTerms=narfell
in Ed's 2008 answers thread (p.34).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:36:25
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15. Mt. Nar (UE p190)
a. Massive snow-capped peak (UE p190)
b. Jastaath Kingdom, led by priest-kings and older than Ancient Narfell, built a massive fortress atop Mt. Nar (UE p190) (LEoF p68)
c. Priest-kings of Jastaath were the first of the Nar petty kingdoms to parley with demons (LEoF p68)
d. The ruins of the kingdom and fortress lie beneath a layer of never-melting snow and ice (UE p190) (LEoF p68)
e. The fortress and city were protected by very powerful weather magic that kept them warm even in the dead of winter (UE p190)
f. North face of mountain hold an immense icy cavern that is the lair of a white wyrm dracolich Kryonar (UE p190) (LEoF p68) (DoF p152)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:37:15
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3. Eltab [demon lord] (CoR p130-135) (CoV p65-66,91)
a. First summoned to Faerun by Nar Demonbinders (CoR p130)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:40:36
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5. Thrall of Eltab (CoR p134-135)
a. Has embraced the dark legacies of Ancient Narfell (CoR p134)
b. Seek to re-establish Ancient Narfelli lands under the rule of Eltab (CoR p134)
6. Clerics (FR9 p23)
7. Nar Demonbinder (UE p25-28)
a. Master of the ancient sinister art developed by the mages and priests of Ancient Narfell of summoning and binding demons against their will (UE p25)
b. Two types of people seek this power: Those unscrupulous mages who seek power or those more principled researchers who seek this lore in order to battle demons (UE p25)
c. Nar Demonbinder spell list (UE p27-28)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:45:21
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3. Ancient Raumathar prophecy – Beacon’s Cairn (Horde vol.1 p27)
4. Ancient Narfell magics found often in buried cities/ruins (FRCS p108, 267) (UE p189) (LEoF p67)
5. Cult of Eltab seek out demons trapped in demoncysts to release them (CoR p130-131) (LEoF p67)
7. Eltab’s Fate [Impiltur] (CoR p133)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:46:17
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4. Ancient Narfell was a powerful wizard-ruled state destroyed by war with rival Raumathar, fulfilling ancient prophecies of mutual destruction. The last battles involved demons, dragons, and magic that burned entire cities and created the Endless Wastes. Ancient Narfell was a warlike, cruel nation whose leaders were evil priests allied with demons and to this day some refer to Narfell as Demonlands. (CoV p71-72) (FRCS p108-109,262-263,267) (RoF p88-89) (CoR p130-131) (UE p25,189-190) (GTotR p117,125)
5. Mercenaries who fought in Orcgate Wars stayed around and founded Narfell (FRCS p109,267)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:46:49
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8. History of Ancient Narfell (CoV p71-72) (RoF p88-89) (LEoF p62,67,68,71)
9. Ancient language of Narfelli is a mix between Common and Abyssal (RoF p107)
12. Nar tribes have little memory of their past ancestors but they do know that some of the old ruins can bring danger and may attack adventurers who may loose these dangers onto their lands (LEoF p71)
13. Typical ancient Narfell fortresses were squat buildings with numerous underground levels, rooms, conjuring chambers, glyphs, and wards throughout (LEoF p67)
a. The most powerful even had portals to the Abyss and the Nine Hells (LEoF p67)
b. Many are still plagued today by demons or devils still trapped by wards (LEoF p67) |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:47:37
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15. Ancient Narfell sorcerors developed a way for their familiar to maintain a spell for them instead of having to concentrate on it themselves [feat Familiar Concentration] (LEoF)
16. The Crown of Narfell [artifact] (CoV p71-72)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 21:49:29
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sorry about the randomness of the posting above, i was just posting as i looked through my outlines
tried to bold the stuff that may have more pertinence to you
seems like there was a recent novel/sourcebook that actually described HOW both were destroyed simultaneously, anyone have an idea on that? |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 22:43:21
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Looking over that, it almost seems like that confrointation was the 'human version' of the Crown wars... especially the ones between Aryvandaar and Illithir. One side uses Fiends, then the other, then both are ultimately destroyed.
Sounds like a typical Fiendish plot against mortals, all things considered - temptation, and then under-estimation (of the summoned Fiends). It fits well with FR's theme of planer-interconnectivity and Fallen Empires.
Anyway, good research.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Nevermore
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 12:05:42
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Thanks again coach, and George, and everyone :)
And yes, the idea behind the campaign is that the Great Conflagration was part of a demonic plot to free the Chained God :) |
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Ancient 
