| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
rockyoumonkeys
Acolyte
28 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2009 : 14:12:47
|
i was curious if there was a list anywhere which pointed out which FR novels/short stories have officially become non-canon. (i'm only concerned with the novels and short stories, not comics).
not that i'd skip those books, but it'd be good to know before getting into it that it's not really part of the "official" story.
only reason this even occurred to me was that i read in another thread about books/stories being "kicked out" of the canon due to later changes/directions.
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 16:30:23
|
| I'm not aware of any books being kicked out of canon... So far as I know, all novels are canon, with the possible exceptions of Once Around the Realms and some parts of the Double Diamond Triangle Saga. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 17:36:51
|
It's somewhat complicated. As Wooly noted above, the "Double Diamond Triangle Saga" novels often lie at the source of such complication. There are parts of the books that are well-grounded in Realmslore, while others, that take place at a future point in the timeline [that is, from the original time-frame of the novels], often cause confusion among scribes.
We've learned though, from WotC, that some of those future events depicted are likely to have occurred in the interim period between the novel's publication and the Year of the Ageless One [1479 DR]. So the non-canon status of these troublesome events has been cleared up somewhat.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 May 2009 17:40:30 |
|
|
|
mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 19:43:57
|
| I believe that the short story The Fires of Narbondel by Mark Anthony is considered non-canon. Whether that's official or not I don't know, but from what I've read it's not really considered part of the Drizzt saga. |
|
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 21:52:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
I believe that the short story The Fires of Narbondel by Mark Anthony is considered non-canon. Whether that's official or not I don't know, but from what I've read it's not really considered part of the Drizzt saga.
What makes you say that this story about Zaknafein and the Do'Urden family is uncanon ?
My understanding is that when RAS and Wizards worked out his new contract, the Mark Anthony authored Drizzt stuff "never happened." This is certainly true for Shores of Dusk, which is why it was never published. Is Fires of Narbondel officially non-canon? I have no idea, but I think most Drizzt fans consider it non-canon. Beast would probably be a better source for details on this as he seems to be the RAS/Drizzt guru. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 01:15:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
I believe that the short story The Fires of Narbondel by Mark Anthony is considered non-canon. Whether that's official or not I don't know, but from what I've read it's not really considered part of the Drizzt saga.
What makes you say that this story about Zaknafein and the Do'Urden family is uncanon ?
My understanding is that when RAS and Wizards worked out his new contract, the Mark Anthony authored Drizzt stuff "never happened." This is certainly true for Shores of Dusk, which is why it was never published. Is Fires of Narbondel officially non-canon? I have no idea, but I think most Drizzt fans consider it non-canon. Beast would probably be a better source for details on this as he seems to be the RAS/Drizzt guru.
There might be something to that. Because the story itself isn't referenced anywhere on the Chronological Listing of Realms Fiction over at WotC.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 13:02:27
|
| This has me curious now. Is there an official answer from the power that be pending on this? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 22:38:56
|
| was entreri in the double diamond triangle saga? |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:35:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There might be something to that. Because the story itself isn't referenced anywhere on the Chronological Listing of Realms Fiction over at WotC.
That's not quite true, Sage. 
"The Fires of Narbondel" is referenced within the <"FR Fiction with Unknown Timeline Placement"> section of the WOTC chronology, on a separate page. It's listed as:
quote:
"The Fires of Narbondel" Mark Anthony 1996 ? ? Realms of the Underdark Story II
I have it, but I've never bothered reading it yet because of the canonicity issue.
The fact that it is still listed there, though, would sure seem to indicate that somebody--at least as of 2000, when that list appears to have been compiled--thought that it was indeed canonical.
And once I do get around to reading it, if there are any time clues in there at all, I reckon I could guage a pretty darn good chronological placement for it, too. Just take Drizzt's age in the story and add that to either 1297 DR (his canon birthyear) or to 1298 DR (my personally calculated birthyear for Drizzt).
Ah, a quick breeze through the story shows that Drizzt is eleven years old at the time ("TFON", C2). Thus, according to my math, that would date the story approximately in the year 1309 DR (1298 DR + 11 years = 1309 DR).
Once I do finally get around to actually reading it in detail, I'll let you know if there's anything in there that actually contradicts what RAS has written. It might be really relevant, considering that RAS' next novel is supposed to be a backstory piece on Zak and Jar . . .
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
was entreri in the double diamond triangle saga?
"RAS Forums" administrator Laethyn has mentioned several times that the DDTS books featured a version of Entreri who was either missing an arm or at least lame, in light of his injuries from Drizzt at the end of The Halfling's Gem. I cannot verify this, as I haven't read the DDTS myself. But if what Lae says is right, it would seem as if someone had not learned of the healing properties of Entreri's vampiric dagger at the time that the DDTS was written. That bit of lore was not entirely clear back in early 1990 when THG was published.
According to that other timeline link I mentioned above, the DDTS books are set in 1377 DR. That would run concurrently with the latter half of The Pirate King. We know what Jarlaxle was doing then, but we don't necessarily know what Entreri was doing at the time. Per the end of Road of the Patriarch, he had gone back to live in Calimport--I take it, early in the year 1369 DR.
Is it possible that Entreri gets injured through some completely separate means than the duel with Drizzt? How might this jibe with Entreri's shade essence properties? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 01:01:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
That's not quite true, Sage.
"The Fires of Narbondel" is referenced within the <"FR Fiction with Unknown Timeline Placement"> section of the WOTC chronology, on a separate page. It's listed as:
quote:
"The Fires of Narbondel" Mark Anthony 1996 ? ? Realms of the Underdark Story II
Ah, so it is. My mistake. Thanks BEAST. 
quote:
I have it, but I've never bothered reading it yet because of the canonicity issue.
I didn't think there was anything wrong with the tale, myself. I kinda enjoyed the historical bits that related to Narbondel itself.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 19:05:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Once I do finally get around to actually reading it in detail, I'll let you know if there's anything in there that actually contradicts what RAS has written. It might be really relevant, considering that RAS' next novel is supposed to be a backstory piece on Zak and Jar . . .
Finished it. Here are some quirks about "The Fires of Narbondel" that I noticed:
"TFON", C4: Narbondel is described as a pillar with a definite "top" or "summit", as a sort of stalagmite; it does not connect with the ceiling of the cavern of Menzo as a load-bearing structure. "TFON", C9, mentions the clock having a "craggy top".
Whether Narbondel is a stalagmite or a full column is a matter of dispute in the sources.
As with "TFON", Siege of Darkness refers to the pillar having a "tip" (SOD, P1:C4), and Triel threatens to place Quenthel's head "atop" the clock (SOD, P2:C9).
However, the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set says that the central pillar of the cavern "joins floor and ceiling in a massive shaft" (MBS, B1:p.6); Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark describes Narbondel as "connecting floor and ceiling in a massive shaft" (DDUGTTU, p.61); and Condemnation depicts Narbondel as "a thick, irregular column extending all the way to the ceiling" (Con., C1).
Nevertheless, DDUGTTU still describes the pillar as having a "top" and confirms the tale contained within "TFON" (DDUGTTU, p.65).
Now, if Narbondel does not really have a distinct top or summit, then this could prove very problematic for the whole "TFON" story.
Contrarily, if the time-clock is indeed a full column, then can it rightfully even be described as having a "tip", "top", or "summit"?
As a possible retcon solution, perhaps there is no single precise top, but rather only a shoulder or side-ridge on the irregularly-shaped column, and it was actually this surface that Zaknafein climbed to in the event?
[EDIT]
"TFON", C4: Because levitating uses magic and magic gives off heat and Zaknafein wants to avoid making his presence known, Zak decides to physically climb/descend the length of the pillar--three times (up the outside & down the inside stairs, then up the stairs again).
The problem there is that we have been repeatedly told that the cavern of Menzo is a thousand feet high (Hom., Pre.; The Drow of the Underdark 2E, C2:p.18; MBS, B1:p.7; Starless Night, P5:C24; DDUGTTU, p.61; Dissolution, C1; Condemnation, C3).
So how long of a climb (and descent) would that make Narbondel?
There is also the fact that the internal stairwell actually descends below the level of the cavern floor, causing the stairs to stretch across an even greater distance than the external climb. This stairwell spirals inside the structure, as well, which makes the stair descent cover a significantly greater distance than the sheer ascent.
And what's more, Zak miraculously does all of this between the time of the Black Death of Narbondel (midnight) and Gromph's lighting ceremony. It has never been stipulated exactly how long the time-clock is allowed to remain completely black before being re-lit, but the story goes to great effort to show us that it is not a protracted length of time. There is a considerable sense of urgency to the whole scene. So Zak apparently climbs & manually descends over three thousand feet of rough-hewn rock--not to mention the whole incident with the grave of Menzoberra at the bottom of the stairwell--in a matter of minutes.
All this physical exertion . . . in the name of not giving off any body heat?
[/EDIT]
"TFON", C1: Zak is allowed to freely roam outside the city into the Dark Dominion, beyond the farthest reaches of the patrols, and at one point seriously considers escaping into the Underdark.
This is an important point, because in Homeland, we're never told about Zak leaving the city proper. In fact, we're repeatedly told that he considers himself trapped in the city and its ways (Hom., P5:, P5:C25, C26, & C29). We're actually told that Matron Malice had set a trap for him, and he had fallen in.
Why exactly did Zak feel trapped? Was it only an emotional, psychological thing? Or was it an irresistible magical or clerical curse laid upon him by Malice? If it were the former, then "TFON"'s depiction of Zak as considering escape might work. If it is the latter, then there is a problem, here.
It remains for RAS, hopefully, to more fully explain in an upcoming work the full nature and cause of Zaknafein's perception that he was trapped within the city, unable to flee as Drizzt so clearly wished to do.
"TFON", C6: Zak is said to have thought he was completely alone as a hater of Lloth and the evil nature of the drow, before meeting Jalynfein the Spider Mage.
Again, will this be borne out in the forthcoming RAS book?
"TFON", C4: The House Do'Urden gate is described as being raised from the ground in two separate sections, so as to hold non-levitating rabble in, while allowing levitating drow nobles to pass freely.
However, Hom., C4, describes Zak and Maya Do'Urden both opening "the gates" in order to allow a levitating disk to enter. Now, why would two persons be needed to flip a lever in order to drop a vertical-style gate? This sounds more like a traditional two-leaved, hinged, lateral-style gate: one person grabs each leaf and pulls it to each side.
When Dinin returns to the wreck of House Do'Urden in The Legacy, we're told that "two sets of broken doors, one on the ground and one beyond a balcony twenty feet up the wall, hung open awkwardly on twisted and scorched hinges" (italics added; TL, Pre.).
"TFON", C2, C4, & C5: We're repeatedly told that House Do'Urden's balcony has an adamantite railing.
But Homeland describes the balcony railing as "silvery", "silver-glowing", and "mithril-and-adamantite" (Hom., P1:C1).
"TFON", C8: Briza assigns young Drizzt to polish over a hundred "doorknobs" throughout the complex.
But in Homeland, we are only told of the doors having a "handle" (Hom., P1:C5) and a "latch" (Hom., P4:C17).
I suppose it's still entirely possible that Drizzt could've accidentally stumbled upon the house treasure room by polishing a latch/handle, though.
"TFON", C3: The House Do'Urden feast hall is described as extending further into the western wall of the cavern of Menzoberranzan than any other room--so far, in fact, that it remains damp and prone to mold.
However, according to the MBS, the dining hall is located on the southern side of the house's upper complex, and it is the chapel that is located furthest to the west (MBS, "The House Do'Urden Retrospective", p.3-4).
This difference of architecture could prove problematic, because it is a disturbance in the mold covering the walls of the feast hall which clues Drizzt into the location of the house's treasure chamber, which eventually leads him to the Dagger of Menzoberra. With the dining hall in a less mold-prone locale, a different explanation might be necessary for how Drizzt accidentally saved the day.
"TFON", C2: Zak levitates over the balcony railing of House Do'Urden, and then we're immediately told "which all highborn drow are capable" of doing. It's unclear, but the wording makes it sound as if Zak is likewise being described as "highborn" or noble.
But he was definitely a commoner (Homeland, P1:C1; & Exile, P1:C1).
"TFON", C1: Zak is described as wearing a magic-lined piwafwi.
This is noteworthy because RAS never mentioned a piwafwi amongst Zak's gear in the novels, nor is it listed in his stat block in the MBS ("THDUR", p.4). In Homeland, Zak's body heat is concealed from House DeVir eyes by an ad hoc cooling spell cast by Briza (Hom., P1:C1 & C2)--not by a magical cloak.
It is possible that Zak never wore a piwafwi because in earlier editions, such cloaks were considered the property of noble drow alone, whereas Zak was never described as being conferred noble status.
"TFON", C1: Zak is described as using a riding lizard mount.
This has never been described elsewhere.
"TFON", C3: 11-year-old Drizzt is said to have known that he might be sent to study the wizardly arts at Sorcere.
And yet, "Until now [his 16th birthday], he had heard nothing of any future profession being planned for him, or of this place called Sorcere" (Hom., P2:C6).
"TFON", C11: Young Drizzt wears a piwafwi.
But elsewhere, he is not described as receiving a piwafwi (an elaborately-embroidered house piwafwi) until his 16th birthday (Hom., P2:C6).
As a bit of retcon, perhaps his earlier garment was only a lesser piwafwi, while the latter gift was a greater piwafwi?
I do not know how many discrepancies it takes for a work to warrant being considered non-canonical, or if the above exceeds the limit. Thoughts?
EDIT: Added section on the height of the cavern and the length of the climb/descent.
|
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Jun 2009 20:05:17 |
|
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2009 : 01:21:12
|
As I said, ask Beast. Seems pretty thorough to me. I read it while going through the entire Drizzt catalogue last year but never really considered it part of the "true" Drizzt storyline (Kind of like the PC game Menzoberranzan).
I sincerely doubt that if the Zak & Jarlaxle book comes to fruition that RAS would make any referrences whatsoever to the events in TFON, but I've been wrong before. Hopefully we'll have a chance to find out. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2009 : 19:35:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
"TFON", C1: Zak is described as using a riding lizard mount.
This has never been described elsewhere.
This doesn't strike me as a discrepancy. I mean, it's not impossible that Zak could have ridden a lizard mount at some point in his life, is it? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Jun 2009 19:36:20 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2009 : 20:10:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
This doesn't strike me as a discrepancy. I mean, it's not impossible that Zak could have ridden a lizard mount at some point in his life, is it?
You make a good point, and I was thinking about that before I included it in the list.
But it is significant to note that we've never been told that lizard-riding was part of Zak's skills or duties in the novels, or in his stat block. It ought to be listed as part of his repertoire.
I guess I'm just being hyper-cautious about changes to the character, and wanting explanations given for them.
True, the stuff towards the bottom of the list is nitpicky, though.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2009 : 01:01:04
|
Yeah, but for the most part I agree that discrepancies are quite significant. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
is there a list of non-canon FR novels?
Maybe !