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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2009 : 17:43:51
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"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
Edited by - capnvan on 11 Oct 2010 22:14:37
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 18:17:24
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There's a line at p. 34 of Erik's Shadowbane that reads:
quote:
"Does your blade call me dangerous, saer?" she asked, using the form of address for a noble knight of unknown rank.
This is in Waterdeep, of course.
There may be more on the novel, I just started it this weekend. (It's rocking so far!) |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 18:17:42
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I use it, but IMG, knighthood is not (always) tantamount to nobility: It's a religious/martial rank that is awarded to those who prove both their spiritual and physical mettle. Mostly, I use it for Paladins, Divine Champions, and martial Clerics of lawful deities- Torm, Tyr, the Red Knight, and Sune are the main knightly sponsors, as I see it, with Illmater, Kelemvor, Bane, and Azuth having a few each as well.
As for knights who are noble, they take two forms- those nobles who take an order of knighthood, and those knights who are ennobled by a grateful ruler. The latter are typically created Baronets or Knights-Banner, given some land and a small keep or fortified manor.
Having said that, we know that Cormyr has different knighthoods- Purple Dragon Knights and Highknights spring to mind. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 11 May 2009 18:20:43 |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 18:24:25
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Yeah, sir would either be used as a sign of respect or formally as someone who is part of a knightly order or who has been knighted by their lord.
So someone who is really a knight in Faerun would be called sir, but your average paladin wouldn't be unless it was in respect. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 20:23:06
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Saer (say-ur) is the Chondathan word for Sir, according to Ed. Ed has also said, in reference to Waterdeep:
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And as for addressing nobles: no, anyone of known noble status is addressed as “Lord” or “Lady” (toddlers and young children usually as “Young Lord” or “Young Lady”) by a Waterdhavian; “Saer” [rather than “Sir”] is used by those uncertain of a persons’s status but signalling that they don’t want to give offense - - or even that they know they’re addressing some who’s not noble, but believe the person has behaved nobly, and is worthy to stand with the best, and wants to signal that respect.
From some of the other responses he's given, we know the term is used in Cormyr, as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 20:40:16
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Unlike RW Euro-medieval culture, FR honorifics are just that - they are applied by people out of respect, an NOT because one must.
In the RW, you could have been killed for not bowing before a knight. Such things are not neccessary in Faerûn... but still considered 'good form'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 22:33:35
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Both 'sir' and 'lord' have a sense as general forms of address used to one's social superiors, as in 'goodsir'.
'Sir ___' is also a more precise honorific used by certain knighted people, and indicates possession of that actual title unless one is jesting (as in the jocular 'Sir Knight', 'Sir Elf', etc.).
Plenty of instances of both in Ed's fiction. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 15:51:30
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I tend to think of paladins as being knights, effectively. But that's just me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 17:03:46
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Perhaps to expand the discussion, I'll also point out that the odd (and perhaps misogynist) term "Lady Sir" has also been known to be used in the Realms (it's documented in either the FRCS or Silver Marches; in my novel Ghostwalker, Arya Venkyr is referred to as such; see below), as well as the phrase "Lady Lord" (e.g., Lady Lord Myrmeen Lhal of Arabel).
I'm not sure if that's a reference to the possessor of the title being a woman, or a nod to her own title (i.e., Arya is a noblewoman, so she's a Lady, but also a knight, so she's a Sir, hence "Lady Sir").
I'm not sure how common those terms are. In GW, I meant "Lady Sir" to be a subject of mockery among the three friends more than an actual official title.
Thoughts?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 17:32:12
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| In Cormyr, at least, the local lord of Eveningstar is a lady. In one of the older books (Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, I think), it specifically states that her title is Lord, and to omit it or call her Lady was actually an insult. I think I would take that with a grain of salt, but for your example, it might be closer to meaning "The Lady Myrmeen Lhal, Lord of Arabel?" I'm not sure, but Lady Lord seems unwieldy as heck. Just a thought. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 17:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Perhaps to expand the discussion, I'll also point out that the odd (and perhaps misogynist) term "Lady Sir" has also been known to be used in the Realms (it's documented in either the FRCS or Silver Marches; in my novel Ghostwalker, Arya Venkyr is referred to as such; see below), as well as the phrase "Lady Lord" (e.g., Lady Lord Myrmeen Lhal of Arabel).
I'm not sure if that's a reference to the possessor of the title being a woman, or a nod to her own title (i.e., Arya is a noblewoman, so she's a Lady, but also a knight, so she's a Sir, hence "Lady Sir").
I'm not sure how common those terms are. In GW, I meant "Lady Sir" to be a subject of mockery among the three friends more than an actual official title.
Thoughts?
Cheers
Speaking as specifically as possible, "Lady Lord," as used with reference to Myrmeen, Tessaril of Eveningstar, and others, is used to differentiate the gender and possession of the title; each of these women is "Lady" to make it clear that the holder of the title is female, but is "Lady Lord" to make sure any listeners know without a doubt that she is lord of the city in her own right, not "lady" by virtue of being married to the current lord.
In the Realms, titles of nobility can just be "Lady," but many titles of authority have some appended title as well. It's a reminder "look, you: this is the person in charge."
These distinctions are similar to the way that ruling queens are "queens regnant" as opposed to "queens consort," and the way that courtesy titles for husbands of noblewomen are assigned differently than those of men (in the real world, often none at all). |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 19:14:33
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| For female knights IMG, I use 'Dame'- both because I run a pretty gender-integrated Realms (except when I want to make a culture seem backwards or barbaric) and because it sounds better: When you're writing Lady Lord or Lady Sir, it's one thing (and, hey, it ups the word count, amirite?) but to be saying it 10-20 times a game session, it just becomes cumbersome. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 20:38:07
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Not to turn this into a feminist discussion, but I think a really "gender-integrated" realms wouldn't make the distinction between men and women in terms of rank at all: all knights (male or female) would be called "sir," while all rulers (male or female) would be called "lord."
Or we'd find a genderless medium (like the RW "congressperson" rather than "congressman/woman").
I could see the distinction in terms of actual *title*, if only for the sake of clarity (i.e., knowing who you're talking about, so as not to mix up His Eminence Lord Bladderblat and Her Grace *Lady* Bladderblat).
But in terms of actual rank, everyone would have the same thing regardless of gender in a gender-integrated society.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 21:15:00
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Well, I see it this way: When I was in the military, I called male officers 'Sir' and female officers 'Ma'am'. I did this not because I respected the female officers more or less than their male counterparts, but because- well, that's how you address a female officer. On the other hand, for NCO's, I (a male) was addressed as 'Sergeant', as were the females holding that rank. So, since 'Sir' denotes a male, there should be a female version of that title, whereas 'Knight-Captain of the West Gate' does not indicate a gender, so there's no need for a gender-specific version. In the Realms, we have several examples of one title (even a gendered one) being used for both genders... but even so, that title is usually modified when it is held by a female- hence Lady Lord Lhal.
To wit, when the title is clearly gendered, there needs to be a version for each gender- when it isn't, there doesn't. That makes sense to me, but I guess I can see how it could be confusing. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 12 May 2009 21:16:17 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 21:17:00
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| And on further thought, maybe this is a good candidate for an 'ask Ed' query, capnvan? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 21:25:57
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Oh I don't think it's confusing, KotG; I can just think of a goodly number of my feminist friends who would take exception with "sir" vs "dame" and "lord" vs "lady." And I wasn't asking about how it works in the Realms--you had just said "gender-integrated," so I was musing about a possible consequence.
I think we should definitely ask Ed about this.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 22:02:29
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| Well-put, Erik- I guess I misunderstood your initial premise. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2009 : 23:10:57
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| Sleepy brained, so not certain but isn't this covered in Power of Faerun? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 01:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Sleepy brained, so not certain but isn't this covered in Power of Faerun?
Somewhat. There's brief bits in the "Order in the Court" chapter of Power of Faerûn. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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edappel
Learned Scribe
Brazil
211 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 15:27:35
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If I'm not wrong, at Bloodstone Lands, there are titles too..
SPOILER - Sellsword Trilogy
The assassin Artemis Entreri become "Sir".. |
--- Ed Appel
*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english. |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:36:25
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| what type of address would elves use with each other? would they use "lord" and "lady" or would they have another form of address. |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 21:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I tend to think of paladins as being knights, effectively. But that's just me.
I completely agree, m'lady. Especially if you read through The Complete Paladin's Handbook from 2nd Edition. That really helps a lot. At least, for me it does. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 00:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
what type of address would elves use with each other? would they use "lord" and "lady" or would they have another form of address.
Here's a little from Ed on elven honorifics, from March '05:-
"ELVES (additional to Coronal, etc.):
[[The following terms aren’t used in every elven realm or community.]]
The mayor or ‘chief of police and defense’ of a community is a DESMRAR (DESMRIL if female) (“DEZZ-mrar” or “DEZZ-mrill”)
A far-traveled, experienced elf who knows or remembers a lot, and can impart it (humans might use the term ‘sage,’ but that often implies book-learning and deduction, whereas the elves mean someone who’s seen with their own eyes, and only augments their own experience with what they’ve learned from others) is often, regardless of gender, called an ALANTAR (“Al-LAN-tar”)
A war leader (unit commander) or mission leader is sometimes called a TELEGAUNT (“TELL-eh-gont”), regardless of gender, but this term is usually used only if the individual is a veteran of proven merit
A SHEE (in some places, “SHREE”) was a wise female elder, strong in magic (in some cases, High Magic specifically; this is a corruption of the very old Elven word VELARSHEE) (“Ssh-EE” or “Shh-REE”)
Finally, IYILITAR (“ILL-i-tar”) was a unigender equivalent to Coronal in elder days, but is nigh-forgotten today"
...
Also, take a look at this entry from the FRML.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 11:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by edappel
If I'm not wrong, at Bloodstone Lands, there are titles too..
SPOILER - Sellsword Trilogy
The assassin Artemis Entreri become "Sir"..
Dunno about the Entreri trilogy, never read it, but I do know that the H1-4 modules do include Sir. On the other hand, they were sort of shoved into the Realms at the last moment.
never fear, the Bloodstone Lands uses the term "sir" both canonically and (in the case of H1-H4) precanonically
i'll find the source and post |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 11:38:57
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Bloodstone canon references (even a blurb on Pally's)
quote:
8. Class divisions less notable than in anywhere on Faerun, other than Royalty and the Court and Paladins and knights being referred to as “Sir” or “Milord” (RoF p90)(Rite)
b. Sir Donagan, Sir Bevell, Sir Gavaland, Maryin Feldspar (D:WA p23) all killed in battle with Urshula (D:WA p23-35)
178. Sir Liam [of Halfling Downs] (RotP p27)
a. Whereabouts unknown, missing since traveling home after attending his own ceremony awarding him with the title of Apprentice Knight of the Order (RotP p27)
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2009 : 22:05:52
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In my campaign, in the Vast specifically, I have decided that the honorific 'Sir' is exclusively reserved for knights, i.e. those sworn to the service of a knightly order or a master of sufficient status to employ knights.
That describes the knights of the various orders in Raven's Bluff, those belonging to knightly orders sponsored by specific nobles (which is a prerogative of nobles in the Vast) and those belonging to religious orders. Paladins will often have title 'Sir' due to belonging to a religious order, but it is not necessary for them to be knights at first level or even at all*.
A female knight has the title 'Ladyknight' and is addressed as 'Maer' (City of Raven's Bluff).
Landed knights with hereditary titles, what we would term a 'baronet' today, are Calagard (male form)/Calagrath (female form). They are addressed as 'High Sir' or 'High Maer'.
Interestingly, in Raven's Bluff, 'Saer'/'Saeress' is the form of address for a noble of 'Exalted' rank (the rank above Baron and below Lords).
Of course, this information is valid only in the City of Raven's Bluff, but I have decided that the culture of Tantras is probably not so very different that I cannot use the same titles for nobles there. How far to extend this is each individual GM's choice, but I can easily see the use of 'Maer' to address a female knight as being universal in Faerun.
Note that 'Dame' probably refers to the wife of a knight if it is used at all.
*In my campaign, the squire to Sir Dylan Lionshand, Knight Commander of the Order of the Golden Lion, is content to remain a squire as he feels that there is more honour in serving such a master than in anything else he could be doing. Of course, it helps that he is a paladin of the God of Loyalty. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 01:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I see it most often on paladins, even if they're not members of the nobility. What's the general feeling out there? Does the title seem somewhat out of place in the Realms?
It doesn't seem that out of place, in my opinion. In medieval Europe the title was used with the lesser nobility, who owned some land and owed some obligation to higher nobles.
If you have Kings and Queens then you will have noble ranks that are beneath those titles. 'Sir' suggests that you are dealing with someone who is on the low rungs of the ladder but they have connections. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 09:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I realized that there didn't seem to be much official lore indicating that knights and paladins took the honorific "Sir."
I see it most often on paladins, even if they're not members of the nobility. What's the general feeling out there? Does the title seem somewhat out of place in the Realms?
In my campaigns I have used the title of "Lord / Lady" for Knights in the service of their King who have been "Knighted" thus using the honorific "Sir / Lady". and as a general prefix to any one above the class of commoner.
I also use the scottish term "Laird" as a non-noble title for a person who owns an estate/land and offers protection to others. This title though non-noble has been compared to the english "Lord" title and the address of Sir can be used. Not to be confused with a Baron which is a Noble Title (landed).
Most Laird's use the following.
Eg: Delzounblood Laird of Delzoun.
Addressed as: Laird Delzounblood or Sir Delzounblood.
Delz
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 16:20:30
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| This is something that has always been a problem in my campaign. The old Norwegian forms of Sir/lady(or dame)is now just the equivalents of Mr and Mrs. And using the English forms is usually awkward. |
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Query on this "Sir" Thing
