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IronAngel
Seeker

65 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2009 :  17:17:43  Show Profile  Visit IronAngel's Homepage Send IronAngel a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey.

I tried searching Candlekeep for the answer to this question, but I didn't manage to find it if it's even been asked before.

Is there any known connection between the Roaringhorns of Waterdeep, and the Cormyrean family?

I've looked into Volo's Guides to the North and to Cormyr, the 2e City of Splendors and Cormyr, and I've read both The City of Spelandors (novel) and Cormyr: A Novel. I didn't find any obvious connection, but maybe I've missed something.

So, does anyone know whether it's just coincidence, an intended but yet-to-be-elaborated story Ed slipped in, or if there's ever been any lore on it?


My questions is mostly academic. Having just finished the Cormyr novel, I got curious. If nobody knows, it's no big deal. I'm not running a campaign around it or anything. Thanks for reading this!

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33896 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2009 :  18:51:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know of any in-print connections... But I'd guess that the Waterdhavian Roaringhorns are an old offshoot of the Cormyrian ones. I'd imagine that a couple centuries ago (or so), a son or cousin of the Roaringhorns, who wasn't going to get much of the family wealth, eventually settled in Waterdeep and became quite prosperous.

It's also possible that the Cormyrian Roaringhorns deliberately fostered a branch in Waterdeep, with the intent of increasing their wealth at home.

So I'm guessing the connection is there -- but it's far enough back that neither Roaringhorn family pays any attention to the other, except maybe to regard them as distant cousins.

I'd love to see what Ed or our lovely Lady Hooded One has to say, though. Or Krash or Garen -- I'm sure they know.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2009 :  19:49:25  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a little teaser:

Not that it answers this specific question, but the forthcoming Downshadow contains a bit of lore regarding the Waterdahvian Roaringhorns of 1479. Little bit, but there.

I'd love to go into it further, but at the risk of spoilers (or of stepping on another Waterdeep author's toes) . . .

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 01 Apr 2009 19:50:36
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5960 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2009 :  23:30:00  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll defer to the talents of my worthy colleague in lore Garen Thal on this one.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  00:58:39  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to take anything away from Sir Garen! [I'm awaiting his take as well], but I do think there is some connection. I seem to recall a tidbit from "The Adventures of Volo: Lost Treasures of Cormyr, Part 3" article in DRAGON #280 suggesting:- 'the [Roaringhorn] family was already considered noble in Waterdeep when Gardrath was elevated to nobility in Cormyr.'

Interesting. Perhaps Brian can elaborate.

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Edited by - The Sage on 02 Apr 2009 01:33:51
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33896 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  02:04:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Not to take anything away from Sir Garen! [I'm awaiting his take as well], but I do think there is some connection. I seem to recall a tidbit from "The Adventures of Volo: Lost Treasures of Cormyr, Part 3" article in DRAGON #280 suggesting:- 'the [Roaringhorn] family was already considered noble in Waterdeep when Gardrath was elevated to nobility in Cormyr.'

Interesting. Perhaps Brian can elaborate.




Really? I would have thought -- obviously! -- that it was the other way around.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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31701 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  02:40:10  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, we know the Cormyr Roaringhorns received their noble title during Gardrath's lifetime [984-1019 DR]. I don't immediately recall, off-hand, any particular reference noting the rise of the Roaringhorns to nobility in Waterdeep. Which, I suppose, could indicate that it occurred well before 984 DR.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  03:43:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems an "ask Ed" may be in-order.

I would have assumed that nobility in one 'state' would be considered nobility in another, much as it was in our RW.

However, this thread makes me realize that things work a bit differently in the Realms - for instance, any surviving Obarskyrs in Impiltur would still be peasants.

I have picked this up from a few novels - usually nobles of one region don't look favorably on nobles of another region (not giving them the same status, even if their title would infer they were of a higher rank back home). They are treated better then local commoners by other nobles, but not much more so.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2009 03:35:42
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Gang Falconhand
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
85 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  10:52:52  Show Profile  Visit Gang Falconhand's Homepage Send Gang Falconhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Well, we know the Cormyr Roaringhorns received their noble title during Gardrath's lifetime [984-1019 DR]. I don't immediately recall, off-hand, any particular reference noting the rise of the Roaringhorns to nobility in Waterdeep. Which, I suppose, could indicate that it occurred well before 984 DR.




According to the web enhancement to the City of Splendors 3.5 book (link below) they are the same family. Ennobled in Waterdeep in 948DR and in Cormyr in 1016DR.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20050928a

"If you have a quality let it define you."
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  14:04:14  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gang Falconhand
According to the web enhancement to the City of Splendors 3.5 book (link below) they are the same family. Ennobled in Waterdeep in 948DR .


Hmmm that is interesting! The date is before Ahghairon becomes the first Lord of Waterdeep (1032 DR/0 NR) (though after he becomes the official advisor to the War Lord of Waterdeep in 952 DR) and (appears to me) to contradict the lore from the City System book and the City of Splendors Campaign guide to whit:

City System
NR 216 (1248 DR) Waterdeep grows five fold and crime becomes a problem. Formation of Guilds (recognition of merchant gentry; "Noble familes developing). Creation of City of the Dead

CoS
NR 216 (1248DR) Due to expanded trade the merchants form guilds, and a recognised merchant gentry emerges in the city.

NR 218 (1250 DR) Noble villas begin dotting the plateau north of the City.


So it seems we have several tiers of ennobling taking place (mainly in 1248 DR which fits with CS and CoS) with only one family ennobled earlier than the Roaringhorns - The Talmosts in 942DR. I see from GHotR that the small realm of Talmost was destroyed in 942 DR so I assume survivors fled to Waterdeep and became ennobled? Like the Roaringhorns this is during the Second Trollwar so one must assume they are valiant defenders against the trolls and wield unusual power amongst the other warlords of the time?

George as Lorelord of the North, can you comment further on the origins of the Talmost and Roaringhorns? Are the Roaringhorns a family displaced by the fall the Duke of Calandor and Tyndal relocating to Steeping Falls (Daggerford) in 947DR. Were they a noble family of Delimbiyran that moved to Waterdeep after the Duke dies (after the Great White Wyrm falls on him! ) or are their origins older still (Phalorm perhaps?).

Cheers

Damian
ps George: if there is anymore Lore of course - I am sure we can make stuff up for our own campaigns.

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005

Edited by - crazedventurers on 02 Apr 2009 14:43:22
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Gang Falconhand
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
85 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  15:01:13  Show Profile  Visit Gang Falconhand's Homepage Send Gang Falconhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm DMing a campaign set in Waterdeep and one of the PCs is a Talmost, so I've investigated the history.

The small Talmost realm was one of a handful of petty kingdoms that survived the fall of the Kingdom of Man.

The Talmosts were ennobled in Delimbiyran in 659DR. When that kingdom fell they became the royal house of their own kingdom (NE of Ardeep Forest) in 697DR. They fled their lands in 942DR after suffering unrelenting drow raids, and joined Waterdeep's burgeoning merchant nobility.

But that doesn't explain the timeline discrepancies pointed out by crazedventurers (I must admit I hadn't even considered checking Waterdeep's history for when the city started ennobling families).

"If you have a quality let it define you."

Edited by - Gang Falconhand on 02 Apr 2009 15:05:34
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe

242 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  15:35:49  Show Profile  Visit Malcolm's Homepage Send Malcolm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. Time to ask Ed in his scroll, IronAngel. Sounds like one he'd answer pretty quickly, too!
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1095 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  16:06:39  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, folks.

I've been neck-deep in a few off-Keep things these past few days, but I'll go over my sources and notes and attempt to elaborate on the capable work of my fellow scribes later tonight.

Suffice it to say that yes, they are in fact the same family, and that the situation is perhaps a bit more complicated than the brief mentions already cited...
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3178 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2009 :  20:39:10  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We will be waiting...

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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