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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 13:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliyan
I've got a question that is somewhat related to all this. Thing is I can't seem to dig up when exactly Amunuator( sp?) first appeared... It might have a peace of the puzzle as to which came first and how do they intertwine.
First off, I remember that in Baldur's Gate 2 there was the whole temple thing of Amunuator where you fought the shadows and the shadow dragon and the wraith thingie( can't remember exactly any more). Now, this was my first contact with the name, I'm not pulling any strings to BG2 though... it is hardly a reliable source, but I suppose that the deity must have existed somewhere before that for it to be integrated in BG2. Since I highly doubt that it was invented for Bg2.
So, any clues as to when( FR date or/and book in which it was released) Amunuator first appeared?
Amaunator was mentioned in FR13 Anauroch; I think that was his first appearance. He was expanded on in the Netheril box set, and then fully detailed in Faiths & Avatars. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 15:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Iliyan
I've got a question that is somewhat related to all this. Thing is I can't seem to dig up when exactly Amunuator( sp?) first appeared... It might have a peace of the puzzle as to which came first and how do they intertwine.
First off, I remember that in Baldur's Gate 2 there was the whole temple thing of Amunuator where you fought the shadows and the shadow dragon and the wraith thingie( can't remember exactly any more). Now, this was my first contact with the name, I'm not pulling any strings to BG2 though... it is hardly a reliable source, but I suppose that the deity must have existed somewhere before that for it to be integrated in BG2. Since I highly doubt that it was invented for Bg2.
So, any clues as to when( FR date or/and book in which it was released) Amunuator first appeared?
Amaunator was mentioned in FR13 Anauroch; I think that was his first appearance. He was expanded on in the Netheril box set, and then fully detailed in Faiths & Avatars.
Yeah, I do believe Anauroch was the first reference for Amaunator. He's briefly mentioned in the Cormanthyr book as well. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 17:56:00
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On the question of why there are 3 'sun' gods and only 1 moon goddess: The moon just isn't that important, comparitively. Without the sun, life isn't possible, and everyone realizes that.
And Menelvagor, I agree with the tone of your OP, but I was pointing out that it might not be canon.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 18:28:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
On the question of why there are 3 'sun' gods and only 1 moon goddess: The moon just isn't that important, comparitively. Without the sun, life isn't possible, and everyone realizes that.
By that logic, there is no need for a moon deity at all.
Also by that logic, either one deity should cover all aspects of the sun, or there should be, at all times, active deities covering all aspects of it. Because if the sun is so important, having just a dawn deity or just a noon deity isn't going to cover it. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 19:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
On the question of why there are 3 'sun' gods and only 1 moon goddess: The moon just isn't that important, comparitively. Without the sun, life isn't possible, and everyone realizes that.
Sorry, this is real world logic, which does not apply to Toril at all. Selune and Shar are the very first gods created by Ao - they were even before the sun came into existence. It was Selune who created the sun at the bidding of Chauntea to make life on Toril possible - much to the chagrin of Shar. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
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Iliyan
Acolyte
Croatia
42 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 19:34:46
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| Thanks Wooly and Sage! |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 22:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
On the question of why there are 3 'sun' gods and only 1 moon goddess: The moon just isn't that important, comparitively. Without the sun, life isn't possible, and everyone realizes that.
And Menelvagor, I agree with the tone of your OP, but I was pointing out that it might not be canon.
I have to disagree that the moon isn't just as important as the sun. In our world the moon effects the tides, calendars, seasons, countless nocturnal creatures, and night travel (you see better with a full moon then you do with a new moon). It is fair to say the same happens in Faerun as well. Not saying the sun isn't a very important thing to the process of life, but the moon would as well. And since in Faerun certain creatures get their power from the moon, I would say it is probably incredibly important aspect of their lives, more so then probably the sun. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 02:36:47
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I didn't say that the moon was UNimportant: Just not as important as the sun, nor to as many people in daily life. The average Faerunian is a farmer, and it silly to think that a farmer (real-world, or faerunian) doesn't recognize the correlation betwixt ample sunlight and bountiful crops.
In any case, I (personally) don't think the Realms NEEDs 3 'sun' gods, but I do like the interplay between the heretical and orthodox clergy. I like the idea, if not the implementation, in other words.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 03:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
I have to disagree that the moon isn't just as important as the sun. In our world the moon effects the tides, calendars, seasons, countless nocturnal creatures, and night travel (you see better with a full moon then you do with a new moon). It is fair to say the same happens in Faerun as well. Not saying the sun isn't a very important thing to the process of life, but the moon would as well. And since in Faerun certain creatures get their power from the moon, I would say it is probably incredibly important aspect of their lives, more so then probably the sun.
Not only for those reasons but people actually live on Selune and well, no one lives on the sun except for fire elementals and or beings from the Plane of Fire. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 04:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
After all, the New Moon Pact of Selūnite lycanthropes oppose Shar and her dark agents. 'Twould be somewhat difficult to explain this if Shar also represented an aspect of the moon itself.
Which is why when I gave her a moon, it stopped Lycanthropes from changing... which keeps everyting intact.
Of course, I've since shunted Shar's moon over to Abeir now that we have 4th edition - thats where all the 'icky' things go.
Another thought I had was that Selune's tears were actually Shar's moon, which was destroyed by Selune during their battle.
I have a question which is semi-related to his subject, only because people have connected it to the whole Lathander/Aumanator thing -
About when did the Dawn Cataclysm take place? I know we never got a definitive date, but I remember bringing this up awhile back (somewhere) and someone had posted a VERY comprehensive break-down pinpointing the year (or at least, a set of 'target years').
It may have been Gray Richardson... I forget...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2009 06:59:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 05:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
About when did the Dawn Cataclsym take place? I know we never got a definitive date, but I remember bringing this up awhile back (somewhere) and someone had posted a VERY comprehensive break-down pinpointing the year (or at least, a set of 'target years').
I've narrowed it down to approximately 700-712 DR.
There's a lot of uncertain info about it, and some designers favor an approach of "it happened outside of time". I can't stand that approach, myself.
Anyway, there are repeated references to the Dawn Cataclysm "presaging" the Fall of Myth Drannor. And Myth Drannor's Fall ran from 712-714. So the Dawn Cataclysm was obviously before 714.
Next, we have a reference in the FRCS: on page 264, it talks about the schism in Tyche's church. During 8th century DR, Tyche's church split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba.
We know that those two deities sprang out of Tyche's remains during the Dawn Cataclysm. And it's not at all unreasonable to assume that the two sisters would start segregating their faiths almost immediately. I've heard others suggest otherwise, but I don't see why the deities would take their time, or why they'd allow any sharing of worshippers pre-schism.
So the schism happened after 700 (or 701, depending on how you look at it), and the end came for Myth Drannor in 712. Therefore, we can assume that the Dawn Cataclysm happened during that same time frame, or perhaps just a little bit before it.
And something that occurs to me... Maybe the Dawn Cataclysm caused Myth Drannor's fall. After all, a lot of goodly deities would be interested in keeping Myth Drannor around -- deities of just about all the goodly races, in fact. And the Dawn Cataclysm caused a lot of problems for the deities... Maybe Myth Drannor's fall was a reflection of the turmoil in the heavens. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 05:56:56
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We do know that Murdane was killed during this event, and it was also around this time that the division of Tyche occurred -- resulting in the creation of both Tymora and Beshaba.
As for when, that's largely unknown as well. Based on some *facts* however, various possible dates have been thrown into the debate. It was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] "Netheril Timeline" handout as I recall. Another possibility suggests that it occurred somewhere between 700 DR and 712 DR.
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore. I don't believe we should be reading too much into this. In fact, I think it may mean exactly what it means. After all, Krash did personally re-write that particular section in the FRCS. And before the re-write, that section was ALL about the DC. But because the designers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come, they changed it a little and wrote it up differently.
A third option, and the one I had previously been leaning toward, is the theory put forth by Eric Boyd. He first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated.
My current theory however, based on some recent private communications with an FR designer, suggests it may have occurred somewhere in the period between 200 and 400 DR. With the actual ramifications of the event starting around two or three centuries later -- about the time of Myth Drannor's fall. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 06:12:00
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| Sage, was Murdane the deity with whom Helm was 'involved- the one with the portfolios of reason and logic? If so, do we know what killed her? I recall thinking that it didn't sound as though she died from lack of worship. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 06:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I didn't say that the moon was UNimportant: Just not as important as the sun, nor to as many people in daily life. The average Faerunian is a farmer, and it silly to think that a farmer (real-world, or faerunian) doesn't recognize the correlation betwixt ample sunlight and bountiful crops.
In any case, I (personally) don't think the Realms NEEDs 3 'sun' gods, but I do like the interplay between the heretical and orthodox clergy. I like the idea, if not the implementation, in other words.
I never said you said it was unimportant, I was disagreeing to the fact you said it wasn't as important as the sun. However, I wasn't disputing the sun wasn't just as important either. What I was saying was both are needed even if said farmer doesn't think so or know so.
That is all I was saying. Nothing more. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 06:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Sage, was Murdane the deity with whom Helm was 'involved- the one with the portfolios of reason and logic? If so, do we know what killed her? I recall thinking that it didn't sound as though she died from lack of worship.
Yes, that was her. And I can't recall how she died. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 07:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore.
Oh, I don't assume the two events had anything to do with each other. We just know that Tyche fell during the Dawn Cataclysm. Nothing I've seen suggests that her corruption had anything at all to do with the DC -- it just happened at the same time. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 07:19:00
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Hmmmmmm... and then years later we have Helm accused of sneakin' around with Tymora...
... methinks Murdane was somehow merged with Tyche - briefly, and then re-split into two new goddesses.
Which would explain why Helm may have some sort of attachment to Tymora - she was the result of Murdane's brief mixing with the luck goddess.
Still, we don't really know what the Dawn Cataclysm was, or what Lathander was intending (perhaps making himself permanent?), or weather or not it even had anything to do with the Tyche split (although maybe he was trying to use 'luck' to accomplish whatever).
Perhaps it did take centuries... If the two goddesses were merged - probably against their will - it may have taken centuries for them to split apart again (which resulted in two completely NEW deities, because they got 'scrambled' from having been mixed for so long).
Just a theory... and no less weird then others I've heard.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2009 07:21:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 08:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Sage, was Murdane the deity with whom Helm was 'involved- the one with the portfolios of reason and logic? If so, do we know what killed her? I recall thinking that it didn't sound as though she died from lack of worship.
Yes.
And according to Krash's "as-close-to-official-as-we-have" write-up of Murdane, she had the portfolios:- reasoning, sensibleness, and deduction. As for her demise:- "Her worship rose to prominence with the fall of Savras, and was ended only a short time later as gods reckon such matters, when the deity Lathander indirectly caused her destruction during the Dawn Cataclysm."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 08:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore.
Oh, I don't assume the two events had anything to do with each other. We just know that Tyche fell during the Dawn Cataclysm. Nothing I've seen suggests that her corruption had anything at all to do with the DC -- it just happened at the same time.
As I see it, Tyche splitting into Tymora and Beshaba does not logically lead to the statement that the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in the 8th century of Dalereckoning. However, I've seen alternate thinking which suggests otherwise.
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 09:55:56
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| I don't know if this is revelent to the Dawn Cataclisym or what not but i'd thought I would throw this tidbit in. Selune was the one who created Tymora and Beshaba by cleaving Tyche right down the middle because of her corruption. She stated that herself in Tymora's Luck. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 13:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore.
Oh, I don't assume the two events had anything to do with each other. We just know that Tyche fell during the Dawn Cataclysm. Nothing I've seen suggests that her corruption had anything at all to do with the DC -- it just happened at the same time.
As I see it, Tyche splitting into Tymora and Beshaba does not logically lead to the statement that the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in the 8th century of Dalereckoning. However, I've seen alternate thinking which suggests otherwise.
My thinking is that the schism would have closely followed the separation of the two deities. And we know that they were separated during the Dawn Cataclysm -- therefore, the schism would closely follow the DC. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 15:14:00
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I'm content with either interpretation, really. And I've suggested both in my Realms. Your position, and the possibility that the split occurred much earlier -- taking awhile for this knowledge to disseminate and propagate among Tyche's faithful.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 15:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
I don't know if this is revelent to the Dawn Cataclisym or what not but i'd thought I would throw this tidbit in. Selune was the one who created Tymora and Beshaba by cleaving Tyche right down the middle because of her corruption. She stated that herself in Tymora's Luck.
Indeed she did because Moander had corrupted her. BTW, the Greek deities are still looking for Tyche, or, at least, they were in 2e's cosmology according to On Hallowed Ground. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 02:54:25
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| Only one MAJOR problem I see with Wooly's logic - the time period from -133 DR to -25 DR in Tethyr was known as Tethyr under Beshaba's Cloak - pg. 27, Tethyr booklet (from LoI). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2009 02:55:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 03:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Only one MAJOR problem I see with Wooly's logic - the time period from -133 DR to -25 DR in Tethyr was known as Tethyr under Beshaba's Cloak - pg. 27, Tethyr booklet (from LoI).
Elminster was born in 212. And at that time, Tyche was still worshipped in Athalantar. Ed's words, from page 32 of Dragon 228: "in those days, the Luck Goddess had not yet split into Beshaba and Tymora".
So either the Tethyr info is erroneous, or there was an earlier Beshaba. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 04:05:44
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One could of course argue that Toril is no longer in its Dawn Age, and has through chronology of time alone, entered into the peak of its life as a world, and the sun god merely reflects this.
I would imagine then that 5th ed would see Lathander become the Lord of the Evening, then maybe the High God of Prime Time and then later Master of the Time Just Before Conan O'Brian Comes On. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 04:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Only one MAJOR problem I see with Wooly's logic - the time period from -133 DR to -25 DR in Tethyr was known as Tethyr under Beshaba's Cloak - pg. 27, Tethyr booklet (from LoI).
Elminster was born in 212. And at that time, Tyche was still worshipped in Athalantar. Ed's words, from page 32 of Dragon 228: "in those days, the Luck Goddess had not yet split into Beshaba and Tymora".
So either the Tethyr info is erroneous, or there was an earlier Beshaba.
Indeed. And this has been brought up before.
I've speculated in the past that the "Beshaba" reference itself may not actually be an error. Rather, it may just be an creative expression derived from Count Gamalon's reporting skill. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Mar 2009 04:26:37 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 06:42:02
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| or Tyche is still around and is two faced |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 11:25:54
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I guess this is the last time I'll say this, and then let the drift happen...
What do you think of the theory? DOes it make sense? Impossible? Would you use it in a game? |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 15:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I guess this is the last time I'll say this, and then let the drift happen...
What do you think of the theory? DOes it make sense? Impossible? Would you use it in a game?
I don't see it happening. Once Lathander started realizing he was losing worshippers, he'd do just about anything he could to retain the ones he had and to get the lost ones back. |
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Lathander, Amaunator, and the Risen Sun 'Heresy'
