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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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29894 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  04:38:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Why would they be non-cannon? A couple are written by Ed, so in my mind that instantly makes them cannon - Ed says so, so it is - kind of thing.



The books were set in what was at the time of publication the future of the Realms, and the events have never been referenced or included elsewhere.

And the biggest reason they are not canon is because WotC themselves labeled the books as "Apocryphal Future Fiction of Volo's published in Realms" on the long-lost "Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction" web article.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  09:22:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See also earlier threads:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19109
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11961
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16953&SearchTerms=Double+Diamond+Triangle

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  19:58:20  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeing as how Volo's Guides to various parts of Faerun also exist within the realms themselves, is the DDTS series considered the same way? Or are they strictly meta? I'm really curious about this, as I've encountered various characters reading one of Volo's guides or making reference to them. It's kind of neat to ponder how the characters featured in the DDTS series would feel reading about an alternate storyline involving themselves.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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29894 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  21:03:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC referred to it as fiction published in the Realms.

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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  21:30:39  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome, thanks for the info Wooly! :D Now, if I could trouble you further, do you happen to know where they put that reference? I want to record it in my blog, and while I totally take your word for it, I feel like anyone else who isn't familiar with Candlekeep will think I'm daft for listening to what they'd presume is a sheep.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
29894 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  23:02:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you use the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine and the link below, going back to 2005 or so, you should be able to see the original article.

http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/fr_timeline.asp

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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
274 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  02:49:02  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found it, thanks a bunch Wooly!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
29894 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2016 :  12:31:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another set on eBay... $40, which isn't as cheap as some I've seen, but still not unreasonable.

Linky!

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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1211 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2016 :  17:44:37  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh. Tempting. I found #2 a week or two ago at a local used book store. Only need 6-9 now. At the rate I'm going, I'll have them all for about $15, if we don't go into the whole time is money thing. In that case.. even at minimum wage, I'm waaaaaaaay past $40.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2016 :  18:11:08  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked them as they helped me further realize certain characters in the Realms. I have always been the biggest fan of Madeiron Sunderstone and there is at least a little treatment of him in these books and enough characterization to give him a little flavor. Khelban despite his cynicism in humanity notes Madeiron as having a "true heart", if such a think existed. It's a shame that this is his only appearance in novel form except for a few tiny bits in City of Splendors. I loved the fact that he was strong enough to penetrate and suffer the pain of pushing through Khelban's magical wards he had place around himself to research with out being disrupted.

Anything with Piergeiron is always a treat and his characterization seemed to blend with his other realms appearances.

To my knowledge other than Elminster in Hell, it's the only other exposure we get to Aleena Paladinstar. As in the Elminster book she seems every bit as forceful and as much of a presence as her father.

Kastanoph Nesher is an intriguing young character that I have worked into my Realms as an up and coming future masked Lord.

The Utter East seemed an interesting place in the Realms and I would have loved to see it further developed.

A few things that I didn't care for were Artemis and the Paladins. Artemis seemed out of place in the story and Kern and Miltiades seemed a little one-note as do a lot of Paladin appearances in the Realms.

Edited by - Sunderstone on 01 Oct 2016 18:14:08
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2016 :  01:46:08  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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29894 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2016 :  02:33:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.

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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2016 :  02:45:23  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
29894 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2016 :  03:12:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?



It was actually said to be non-canon long before the timeline ever caught up with the books -- they were set well in advance of the then-current timeline.

I can't offer any insight on why WotC declared them non-canon, though. It's likely that it was planned that way from the start, especially given the format and the difference in when it was set, but it's also possible they changed their plans after publication. I'd suspect the former, but I can't rule out the latter.

All I have is the publicly available info. Someone who worked there at the time would be able to offer more info.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2016 :  03:40:00  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Totally aware of the canon status Woolly - that's what I was saying was the problem :)

As far as I understood, the "non-canon" label was applied because it was deemed fiction-within-fiction.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2016 :  04:39:15  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?

It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.

I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2016 :  05:11:53  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?

It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.

I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.



The better fix would be to make Blackstaff not canon instead :)
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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  02:52:59  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?

It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.

I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.



The better fix would be to make Blackstaff not canon instead :)



LOL, and everything that followed.
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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  03:02:47  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.

I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.




Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.

And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.



Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?

It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.

I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.



Thanks Sage. It's nice to know that WotC thought enough of them to be referenced in and consider that they might become official canon at one point.

I really liked most of them and never could understand why they got the bad wrap. I still hold out we will see original era treatment of the Realms(1345DR-1375DR) at some point.

I think WotC would be surprised at the response. The two books Elaine had wanted to write would be at the top of my list, as well as any 3rd ed material she developed on Moonblades or Evermeet. And of course I always wanted a book centered around Piergeiron and Madeiron Sunderstone. I find myself more interested in rereading stuff like Elaine's work than any fast forward material.

Edited by - Sunderstone on 04 Oct 2016 04:32:06
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  04:28:17  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  10:24:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards.



TSR did that with the Dragonlance novels... And it was why I quit reading them. At the time, they had the Chronicles and the Legends... And then they did three more trilogies, all going either sideways (set at the same time, more or less, as the main trilogies) or backwards (anywhere from 5 to thousands of years into the past).

And I got bored with it and left, because they weren't moving things forward. They hit a certain point and then stopped.

There have been a handful of Realms novels that have interspersed past and present, but most everything has been set at or near whatever the current "now" is.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  10:40:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another $30 set on eBay...

Linky!

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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  13:53:13  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards.



TSR did that with the Dragonlance novels... And it was why I quit reading them. At the time, they had the Chronicles and the Legends... And then they did three more trilogies, all going either sideways (set at the same time, more or less, as the main trilogies) or backwards (anywhere from 5 to thousands of years into the past).

And I got bored with it and left, because they weren't moving things forward. They hit a certain point and then stopped.

There have been a handful of Realms novels that have interspersed past and present, but most everything has been set at or near whatever the current "now" is.



I actually liked what TSR did with Dragonlance. With FR, I own every Pre Spellplague novel. I picked up Death Masks because it was Ed's and struggled to get through it. It only reminded me of why I can't get into any of the "now" stuff. For me it doesn't feel like the Realms and the more they shoehorn in character's like Mirt just makes it worse. It reminds me of what I use to love and that there is an overarching attempt to say, "maybe" we screwed up with the whole spellplague fast forward thing but it's still the "Realms."

It's not for me, I can tell you have a different opinion. I personally think WotC is leaving a lot of people behind. All the people I know that are fans of the novels and setting still play in the pre 4th ed era.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  14:40:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would honestly prefer that they hadn't done the timejump at all... But given my experience with a setting not moving forward at all, as happened with Dragonlance, I'll take a timejump over a lack of forward motion.

It's always been part of the appeal of the Realms for me: there was more than one main story, and the setting kept moving forward.

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Sunderstone
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2016 :  17:41:32  Show Profile Send Sunderstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would honestly prefer that they hadn't done the timejump at all... But given my experience with a setting not moving forward at all, as happened with Dragonlance, I'll take a timejump over a lack of forward motion.

It's always been part of the appeal of the Realms for me: there was more than one main story, and the setting kept moving forward.



Are you familiar with Cubicle 7's, The One Ring RPG? Great game and system for really getting into the story, immersion part of RPG.

It is set between the Hobbit and LotR and all of the major events of the War of the Ring are transpiring in the background but Middle Earth is so rich and that period in Middle Earth is so rich with events playing in preset time period works well.

The original Grey Box Era up through 3.5ed had that richness. All the ideas of Ed's world building had created a living breathing world. I won't compare it to Tolkien but before it was ever published as a Setting Ed had spent 20+ years writing and gaming, not as a commercial endeavor as a labor of love. So it was with Tolkien in trying to build a world pre-history and English mythology. The stories were secondary to that endeavor and that is why it felt so real.

I think that is why novels like Elaine's or Salvatore's felt so folded into the Realms back in the early days. The stories were inspired by the realness born out of 20+ years of world building.

Now you have RSE's being created to drive the setting and new rules and the World itself has become secondary to it. And for me it really feels that way. I know I can't change your mind but I think WotC is loosing out in the end.

If Elaine ever published the two final books she had planned on, I would pre-order the Hardcovers. I can't see myself picking up any new books or gaming material. I tried Death Masks and Salvatore's last couple and had wade through it to finish them and only for the sake of finishing them. I certainly won't buy anything that was ever new. Maybe at a McKays used book for a deal but I am not shelling out any money for stuff I feel like I have to wade through.

Edited by - Sunderstone on 07 Oct 2016 18:18:07
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