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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1083 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  13:55:33  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was wondering if anyone knew what lvl Larloch is. It is stated in Lords of Darkness that he is lvl 32, but seem to remember that ED once sayd somthing about him being lvl 46 or something like that.

I need the info cause I want to use him in my epic campaing, and I feel that his char. in the book is way to low.

Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  14:33:38  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can make him whatever level you want/need him to be, and the EL should be higher due to him having a plethora of Ioun stones circling him.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  14:46:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nicolai, didn't you ask about this back in September?

Anyways, Larloch doesn't have a specific level. When Ed wrote "He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now", he didn't mean "This is Larloch's real definite level", it's a gesture to say "Larloch is extraordinarily dangerous, and in a different league from almost anyone else", just as he's portrayed in every other source.

He's meant more to be a legend than anything else; few hard facts.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  14:48:39  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's some further info from Ed that may prove useful:-

"Larloch is a onetime Netherese sorcerer (still possessed of a lot of Netherese scepters, which he knows how to make) who is now a quite insane "ultra-lich" (in this case, the term means he has many unknown powers which are up to you the DM, among them the fact that he can still learn and develop new spells, increase in levels, etc.). He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now, and he crafted many of his own undead abilities prior to undeath, which argues that he found his own 'process' for achieving lichdom.
Larloch is served by many (60+ ?) liches, formerly archwizards, whom he guides in concert, as the leader of a telepathic-web 'Overmind.' Thus far, neither psionics nor mind-influencing magics have ever been effective against him or any of his serviotr mages, because the others in the link can withstand and overcome such influences, causing them to fail.
In theory, an attack could reach all of them through the link, but some quite powerful Red Wizards have tried and failed (Szass Tam didn't try such an attack, which may be why he survived...he remains fearful of approaching Larloch and his mages, but fascinated by the details of their lichdom, hoping it might yield him some powers.)
One of Larloch's given-to-himself powers (which - in a long, involved, and secret, personally-developed process - cost him 10 years of life and some vitality, irrelevant of course given his goal of lichdom) is automatic spell reflection (of all magic cast upon him). He can by act of will override this ability, for example when he wants to work a spell on himself; otherwise, it always operates.
Mystra (Midnight's predecessor as the goddess) is said to have allowed Larloch to acquire powers approaching those of "old Netheril" in return for 'leaking' spells to persistent adventurers he or his minions might come into contact with, but this may be no more than rumour spread by the Zhents or Red Wizards or Dragon Cultists, designed to lure adventurers into Larloch-weakening forays...
As for Larloch knowing the identities and locations of other liches/Netherese survivors...no, only the one's he's destroyed. Larloch is too self-centered to hunt down folks who don't come within his easy reach. He controls plenty of archwizards/liches already, but may decide to try to either control or destroy a new one when they come into contact. He seems to be pursuing other goals, however. Which ones? That's up to each DM....."
Larloch and his lich minions have no interest in attracting attention that would waste their time and magical resources (and perhaps, if word got around how dangerous they were, even threaten their existence in the face of a concerted attack from various magical power groups working together). Larloch is not interested in ruling Faerun...but he IS interested in creating and controlling a series of magical gates linking many worlds (parallel Prime Material Planes) and Outer Planes...and so rigging their enchantments that anyone using them comes under his control/faces his forceful removal of their magic items, information from their mind, and so forth. The gates are easy for him to create (he licked all of those problems long ago). The control enchantments have been giving him troubles for thousands of years now, and as an obsessive perfectionist, he isn't going to let this rest until he gets everything just so...nor is he going to create the gates until he's ready to put the controls on them.
In short, he's a munchkin only if played that way. All Player Characters have to learn sometime that there are folks in the Realms just too powerful to tangle with.
I'm reminded of the original Realms campaign, and the Company of Crazed Venturers attacking Shaan the Serpent-Queen (who briefly appeared in a Wizards Three DRAGON article). She was busy working magic on a small island off Mintarn. They attacked, broke her concentration, and she looked up with an irritated frown. They bid her stop, or they'd destroy what she was working on; to demonstrate, one of the Company mages touched (and disintegrated) a stone he was standing beside.
She shook her head in derision, and touched the island beneath them, disintegrating IT, and dumping the Company into the chilly sea waves for a long swim...whilst she turned back to her spellcasting, floating on nothing and ignoring them once more.
A heavy-handed lesson, but...well, Larloch's in the same league, and more. Just consider him a power of the Realms and Don't Go There.
Ed"

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  15:37:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch clearly has a degree of favor from Mystra, and between he and his liches, he's prolly got enough horsepower to successfully challenge a deity.

Ed has also all but openly stated that Larloch is containing something. It could be that this is why he's been allowed to have such powers as being able to reflect back all magic thrown at him.

With all that power and the fact that he's holding something back, it's entirely possible that Mystra and perhaps some of the other deities wouldn't want anyone taking down Larloch.

Larloch, as described by Ed, should be beyond the abilities of even a large party of epic characters. And with Mystra's favor, it's quite likely that such characters would be divinely warned away from attacking him, if it was possible for them to succeed. I can readily see Mystra sending signs to warn the PCs off, perhaps even culminating in them being stripped of magic.

Larloch is not there to be attacked. Attacking him should be like trying to stop a volcanic eruption with a single squirt gun and only a gallon of water.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  15:47:18  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed's answers imply that Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.

One of his current 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly. In the sense that he'll be doing a couple of things:-

1. Monitoring people movement; who goes where and more importantly, why;

2. Putting in place magics to control creatures or people using 'his' portals, or at the very least access their knowledge/memories;

3. Using his knowledge of portals and portal networks to bring groups or individuals into conflict and thereby benefiting from the fallout.

All of this is intended to be done without the hand of Larloch being apparent.

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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1083 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  17:13:04  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could not remember that I have asked it before.. sorry about that, but thanks for all the info! Its great, some of it is new to me some is not, but anyways... more lore, more coolness in the game!

One more question thou... would you, in a situation where larloch him self were needed to cast spells, use the spells in the game or just describe what happened to the charracters when struck? It seen only fair that he just affects the intruders without using "Canon" spells!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  17:42:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I could not remember that I have asked it before.. sorry about that, but thanks for all the info! Its great, some of it is new to me some is not, but anyways... more lore, more coolness in the game!

One more question thou... would you, in a situation where larloch him self were needed to cast spells, use the spells in the game or just describe what happened to the charracters when struck? It seen only fair that he just affects the intruders without using "Canon" spells!




Neither. He's got 60+ liches. Let them deal with intruders.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  18:21:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah - Larloch was meant to be the 'Big Bad' of the Campaign world - one that you only heard about in hushed-whispers, not someone you ever actually considered going after.

Larloch is a very effective Uber-tool in the DM's arsenal... not some 'monster' you encounter in a dungeon.

As to what he's holding back... I hope it wasn't Abeir.

If thats the case, all his well-laid machinations proved to no avail when Mystra came tumbling down.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  19:02:31  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



As to what he's holding back... I hope it wasn't Abeir.


All denizens of Abeir are secretly minions of Larloch.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1083 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  19:44:01  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its not like I would ever go against him with my char. or let anyone else go after him when Im DM'ing, it was more a question abount the mechanics... I would just tell the characters interacting with larloch, be this hostile or not what transpired and not tell then that he was casting this and that spell..

But what would you do?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  19:59:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

Its not like I would ever go against him with my char. or let anyone else go after him when Im DM'ing, it was more a question abount the mechanics... I would just tell the characters interacting with larloch, be this hostile or not what transpired and not tell then that he was casting this and that spell..

But what would you do?




Again, I'd not have them deal with Larloch. Why should he deal with them? He's doing his own stuff, and he's got 60+ liches at his command. If he felt a need to communicate with the PCs, I think he'd either use some sort of project image, or send one of the liches. There is no need for him to physically be in the presence of the PCs.

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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:32:07  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
so you guys know, larloch has for services to mystra been given a copy of the first complete set of the nether scrolls. and he know to have part of the second with him.

Purple you say?!

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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:33:49  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch is also very keen to see spellfire that is one thing he can not use.

Purple you say?!

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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:37:11  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
from what the sage has said larloch would very much like to learn what the twisted rune has forcefully learn from halaster. use the stardock accessory free download from wizard website

Purple you say?!

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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:46:34  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
on regards to meeting larlochi would do as ed would let them meet him be fantastic if the pc pee him off make him cast a gender change spell on them something like that and teleport them to a brothel in the middle of baldurs gate. be funny about it. over hall give them the chance but let them know the dire consequences of peeing him off.

Purple you say?!

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  22:58:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

One more question thou... would you, in a situation where larloch him self were needed to cast spells, use the spells in the game or just describe what happened to the charracters when struck? It seen only fair that he just affects the intruders without using "Canon" spells!
Well, firstly, Ed's notes would seem to indicate that the liches that serve Larloch are quite capable of engaging in any particular situation involving direct combat. They're all archwizards, so I wouldn't think that Larloch would worry too much about something like this.

As for spells, Ed pretty much answered that as well:- "... in this case, the term means he has many unknown powers which are up to you the DM, among them the fact that he can still learn and develop new spells, increase in levels, etc." So I'd imagine anything that would be necessary for your campaign would be relevant at this point, so long as the tale involving Larloch was crafted well and supports good role-playing.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2009 :  12:13:43  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, feel free to have your PCs eventually meet Larloch. If it is to be a battle, it would make for a great super epic final confrontation to end a campaign (and said confrontation could very well go either way). Make it memorable.

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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  06:31:47  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Edit: I just realized that the info I pointed out had already been mentioned.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco

Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 08 Mar 2009 06:38:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  17:12:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1) I would possibly use Larloch, if I ever had a campaign run long-enough where the PCs were of sufficient level (at LEAST 15) so as not to be 'beneath his notice'.

2) In such an encounter, I do NOT use stats - I would run Larloch the way I have run gods (and I have only done so twice). Basically, I would use him as a plot-device to help an adventure along, be it the beginning, middle, or end of such a story-arc, and also build-in a reason why he wouldn't want them dead (attaching some-sort of prophesy to one of the PCs should do the trick - and provide a future plothook). Anything they tried to do againts him would be either stopped or ignored (most spells would simply be sucked-into his various magical devices, which he has hundreds of). He would just act as if anything they threw at him was irrelevant (because it IS), get his business with them over with, and then snap his fingers... and they'd be on a mountain-top in Halrua, or the Jungles of Maztica, or the Great Anvil of Zakhara...

3) I mentioned this above, but it's important enough to warrant its own entry - Larloch MUST have a reason for wanting to keep the PCs alive - I simply cannot stress this enough. If he actually considered them a threat (which I doubt), or even just a nuisance, he would have some of his minions swat them like insects - you do not even get near Larloch unless he wants you to. Your best bet would be to connect the PCs to some 'future event' Larloch has forseen, and wishes to keep them intact for. It cannot be something as mundane as their 'connections' (even if one of them is of royal blood - he would laugh at that), or some artifact they have (but it could be one they will someday get... which he could then take from them...)

4) Halaster is one of the few beings on Toril that could possibly 'worry' Larloch, so I think him keeping tabs on the Mad mage is not only feasible, but entirely warranted. Halaster is old enough to consider Larloch a 'young wippersnapper' - there are probably Liches in Faerūn older then Larloch who were Halithir's apprentices! He was casting epic magic before Larloch was even born, and has probably been to worlds that larloch can only dream of. What drives Larloch to even further consternation is that Halaster doesn't feel the same way about him - Halaster doesn't even pay attention to Larloch's existance... which just worries Larloch all the more.

How powerful is someone that could ignore 'a god'?

This is the true beauty of Ed's creation - no matter how big and bad you are, there is probably someone out there bigger and badder. Halister is the crazy-insane counter point to Larloch's cold, calculating mind. If Larloch is the Realms 'Evil Batman', then Halaster is his Joker. His is the only mind that Larloch can't build contingencies against - you can't out-think a madman.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2009 21:38:19
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5054 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  20:21:26  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote

"If Larloch is the Realms 'Evil Batman', then Halaster is his Joker."

YES! Someone finally gets it! This is EXACTLY what Brian Thomsen, then-head of TSR Books, said to Ed years back, and Ed smilingly confirmed.

Markustay, you win a kiss, and a cuddle, and a good long caress (of me or by me, your choice ), whenever we meet.

love,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  21:41:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am SO going to Gencon this year... even if I have to hitchhike the whole way.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2983 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  22:46:25  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This is the true beauty of Ed's creation - no matter how big and bad you are, there is probably someone out there bigger and badder. Halister is the crazy-insane counter point to Larloch's cold, calculating mind. If Larloch is the Realms 'Evil Batman', then Halaster is his Joker. His is the only mind that Larloch can't build contingencies against - you can't out-think a madman.


-Reminds me of GothicDan's old sig from the Wizards Forums. To bad thats been pretty much done away with now huh?

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1083 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  23:25:56  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to get another One vs. the other treat started, but you mention Halaster as someone in the same league. I was under the impresion that no one was in the legue of Larloch. Szazz Tam and Ioulaum seems to be ad least a powerful.

What is you take on this.

Im sorry to delve into thise power NPSs, but find the lore and history about the interesting!
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2009 :  23:37:58  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you players don't want to go against Larloch directly but 'hurt' him then why not get them meddling in Larlochs obsession with the control of gates (portals).

They would be supported by Flamsterd 'of the Isles' who also dislikes Larloch's plans and is a great way of introducing high level characters to other movers and shakers in the Realms, allowing the campaign to reach epic levels and have the good guys supporting and advising the players (if required?)

Just a thought

Damian


So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2009 :  06:32:03  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nicolai, saying that any of those individuals you named is 'more' or 'less' powerful may or may not be true: After all, Szass Tam politely asked Larloch for aid, and recieved it, after watching what happened to those who irritated him.
Having said that, it's like a conversation during the Cold War: Which is 'more powerful, NATO, or Warsaw?' Who cares, when either one has enough nukes to kill the world? I'd say all those you mentioned are in that vein. The fact that one is 10 levels higher than another or not is immaterial, as all of them are supra-genius epic spellcasters of ruinous age.
The 'who would win in a fight' question shouldn't ever come up, for the simple reason that none of these folks made it to where they are by taking chances. Could Larloch turn Szass Tam into a scorchmark? Sure, unless Tam got lucky, or had a desperate plan that Larloch misunderstood, or whatever. Even if he wins that battle 99.99% of the time, Larloch isn't gonna fight it unless there's a clear reason to do so, and Tam is unlkely to give Larloch one.
The wild card, as always, is Halaster. Since he's nuttier than a tree full of squirrels, he might do anything at any time: Then again, he, Larloch, Aumvor, Ioulam, and the others have been sharing Faerun for a long time without it ever coming to that, so why start now? Especially when it's so much MORE a test of worth to pit your long-rang planning and minions against your rival, since that way he lives to fight another day, and your star shines the brighter for having your defeated foe as a point of comparison to your greatness.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco

Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 08 Mar 2009 06:37:27
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