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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  07:51:06  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/10440
quote:
OK guys. I am getting ready to jump into 4E (and Pathfinder too, settle down).

Here is my plan: I am going to create "Classic 4E": a set of alternate content for 4E to replicate the old school way of playing D&D. It will work in conjunction with the 4E PHB.

It will contain the classic races--elf, dwarf, half-elf, halfling, human, gnome, etc. No dragonborn, no warforged. Now, that said, if you and your DM want to use that content from the PHB you can.

It will contain the classic classes--fighter, ranger, paladin, rogue, cleric, druid, wizard, monk, as well as some 3E favorites such as the barbarian and bard.

It will have some rules changes:

--things will not be tied to the grid, they will be done in feet.
--there will be no more hopping around the grid teleporting, but movement in combat will still be stressed
--the old powers that have to do with things other than combat will make their return
--spell memorization will return in a fun new way
--powers will be more limited for the classes, but more useful. Not every class is a wizard
--alignment returns (optionally)
--buffing is not forbidden anymore. 4E took away buffing spells. I dont mind putting them back.

I want to do this the way Paizo is doing Pathfinder. I want to develop it as a community. I will soon be opening a "4E Classic" forum with a thread for each class and race etc. We can post incremental updates of our rules compiled as a pdf as alpha and beta. The final version will be available as a pdf and perhaps in print as well since people love thier printed game books.

But I want to develop this together.

So what do you think?

Clark

-Very interesting, found this topic at Paizo.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 02 Mar 2009 08:02:19

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  15:17:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't someone already do something similar to this with 1e? Isn't that what Hackmaster is all about?

Also... 'Classic 4e'?

I was unaware that it was already part of the 'Golden Age', and people wanted it 'brought back'.

I'm a little confused....

IIRC, Necromancer did NOT sign the GSL. Unless something has changed, they can't even allude to it being related to 4e, can they?

This just leaves me scratching my head. <insert much-needed head-scratching smiley>

Also - "Teleporting around the Grid"? You know what... maybe I'm not in such a rush to try 4e rules anymore.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2009 16:47:49
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Alisttair
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Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  17:09:37  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Also - "Teleporting around the Grid"? You know what... maybe I'm not in such a rush to try 4e rules anymore.



I think this is in reference to the Eladrin Encounter Power that allows them to teleport...as well as a few class powers (such as the Sword Mage being able to teleport next to a marked target as an Interupt)...its not as bad IMO as the above remark makes it sound.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  17:56:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the most interesting aspect of this is that it's yet another indication that people aren't satisfied with 4E.

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Alisttair
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Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  17:57:57  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, wouldn't it be against copyright to do all that?

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  18:24:55  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not if they follow the GSL.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Julian Grimm
Seeker

86 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2009 :  21:07:41  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish they'd just sign on with Pathfinder or make their own OGL system and be done with it. I don't think anything 4e related will do well for them at all.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  00:42:05  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Also... 'Classic 4e'?

I was unawre that it was already part of the 'Golden Age', and people wanted it 'brought back'.



I think it's more about trying to attract people who feel 4E "just isn't D&D." Of course, what actually is D&D means different things to different people, but that's what I took from that comment.

In any case, I am interested in seeing how they do this...

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Mar 2009 00:42:59
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe

USA
292 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  01:48:53  Show Profile Send ranger_of_the_unicorn_run a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is WotC actually allowing this kind of drastic change to the 4e rules?
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Julian Grimm
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86 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  01:57:35  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I honestly don't think they will.
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Brimstone
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USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  05:28:26  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Reading the Necro Forums, Clark/Orcus wants total compatablility with 4E. Pretty much a bunch of House rules that one could use or could not use.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  05:43:43  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Here is the revised GSL
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1156879

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe

USA
292 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  14:23:43  Show Profile Send ranger_of_the_unicorn_run a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couldn't this loosely be called "redefining"? Particularly with alignment, they are walking a fine line.
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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  14:40:34  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, alignment is an entire argument in and of itself.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  15:07:01  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is REALLY sad is the 4E SRD (download links). Where the 3E version had complete statistics and all the information you need to run the game, the new version is a simple list of everything in the published books. If you want to include information from the SRD in your product, you list the item and what book it is from (you can't even tell them what PAGE), ensuring that if you sell a 4E product, your customers have to go out and buy all the original books.

I was going to say Necromancer Games could publish their idea, but after looking at the GSL and SRD, I don't think they can.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Julian Grimm
Seeker

86 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  15:38:23  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After just a glance at both the new GSL and the 'SRD' for 4e I have to agree. The thing looks like a legal 'Tomb of Horrors' as far as content use. One step out of line and they can nail you. Not something I'd want to try if I ran a company even half as respected as Necro. I think Clark's thinking isn't very clear here. I feel he is making a big mistake.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  16:58:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if people are so disatisfied with 4e already, why would they be willing to invest in even MORE money to fix it? If your willing to play with a system that needs multiple books to make it "feel like you want it to", just keep playing 3e!

I just don't get it... buy 4e... then buy books to make 4e feel like 1e... when you already have older editions on your shelf?

I must be missing something here. Then again, I was never a big fan of any of the 'retro' crazes.

If you liked OD&D, 1e, 2e, or 3e the best, then PLAY OD&D, 1e, 2e, or 3e! If you think 3e was mostly perfect, but could use some much-needed tweaking, then go with 3P (or even AU). And if you absolutely hated all those editions and just wanted to get to the encounters and have well-balanced rules, then go with 4e.

I think the 'P&P RPG pie' has already been divided up into way too many slices, and further sub-dividing the fan-base is going to bring us back to a time when every campaign setting had its own ruleset. Diversity may be a good thing, but if everyone has his own system, who's he gonna play with?

There just aren't enough of us P&P players left to keep creating these divisions, and still have the hobby be viable.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  17:07:54  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I must be missing something here. Then again, I was never a big fan of any of the 'retro' crazes.



I don't know *too* much about any retro crazes, but having read a few old-school gaming blogs like Grognardia, it seems to me that the people who are really into "retrogaming" actually do just play 1E. That's not to say they have no opinions on newer editions like 4E (comments about 4E are usually along the lines of "it might be a good game but it's not D&D"), but I'm not sure if they'd bother playing even if it did feel like D&D to them.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Mar 2009 17:09:04
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  17:50:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, if people are so disatisfied with 4e already, why would they be willing to invest in even MORE money to fix it? If your willing to play with a system that needs multiple books to make it "feel like you want it to", just keep playing 3e!

I just don't get it... buy 4e... then buy books to make 4e feel like 1e... when you already have older editions on your shelf?


Simply because a system is flawed doesn't mean it's useless... We still have plenty of 3.5 material, so -- by your logic -- there's no money to be had by Paizo making the Pathfinder game. With people flocking to the Paizo banner, this is clearly not the case.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  17:58:05  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading the thread on ENworld, Clark, the head of Necromancer Games, seems happy with the changes even though there was stuff he pushed for that didn't get changed.

However, it seems he is now comfortable about signing on.

"Look, there are things that werent changed that I think should have been changed. So dont condescendingly say that since they deigned to make some changes that everyone has to be happy. That isnt the end of the analysis.

I think it was a mistake not to make some of the additional changes and some other things.

But that said, I now view the GSL as an acceptable license and I will be accepting it and using it and supporting 4E. That doesnt mean I have to like everything about it. I dont. But it is now acceptable to me for use.

Clark
__________________
Clark Peterson
Necromancer Games
www.necromancergames.com"

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:39:23  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Not if they follow the GSL.



I thought they had to choose between OGL- or GSL-related content? Has GSL been revised to allow you to do both?

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  20:59:38  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They do have to choose between the two, since by definition of the GSL, producing OGL/3E SRD products 'redefines' the items in the 4E SRD, making it a breach of contract.

However, I *believe* the opposite does not hold true... Using the 3E SRD/OGL to make a 4th Edition-like product would not violate the OGL (in my non-lawyer/non-copyright opinion).

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe

USA
292 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  21:02:30  Show Profile Send ranger_of_the_unicorn_run a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the glance I took through the SRD, it looks like they are no longer forced to stop printing OGL material.

EDIT: I suppose Ashe just answered that. I didn't think about the redefining section in those terms.

Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 03 Mar 2009 21:03:52
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Julian Grimm
Seeker

86 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  21:30:40  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I must be missing something here. Then again, I was never a big fan of any of the 'retro' crazes.



I don't know *too* much about any retro crazes, but having read a few old-school gaming blogs like Grognardia, it seems to me that the people who are really into "retrogaming" actually do just play 1E. That's not to say they have no opinions on newer editions like 4E (comments about 4E are usually along the lines of "it might be a good game but it's not D&D"), but I'm not sure if they'd bother playing even if it did feel like D&D to them.



The retro-clone movement (Yes it is called that) is really just a small branch of players. Some of what they do is good but not commercially viable and IMNSHO borders on copyright infringement. The movement started when a few got mad at Troll Lord Games over the fact that C&C would not be a word for word redux of 1e. (Or seemed to start PM me if you ant to discuss this further)

As for their comments on 4e, some actually liked it but most used their favorite 4e bashing names like 4bortion, 4on and such. None few if any saw the game. So those comments can be dismissed.

No the market can't support so many variations of the same game. That is why the Retro-clones will fade and leave Pathfinder, C&C, 4e and maybe Necro's 4e. But I don't think it will last that long.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  22:44:16  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run

Couldn't this loosely be called "redefining"? Particularly with alignment, they are walking a fine line.


http://necromancergames.yuku.com/reply/178122/t/Classic-4E.html#reply-178122
quote:
Nope. Anything we do will be labeled "classic," whether explicitly stated or not. In other words, any and all terms, even if not specifically labeled as such, contained withing [final name of product] shall be considered "[name of term] [classic]," such as "paladin [classic]" or "magic missile [classic]". So I wont be redefining terms. I will be creating new ones

Come on, I'm a lawyer. Think I can't get by that Level 3 challenge?

-From Clark/Orcus

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  22:54:21  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-If anybody can pull this off it would be Clark and the Necromancer Crew.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Julian Grimm
Seeker

86 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  23:17:08  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brings to mind something about counting chickens before they've...
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2009 :  23:56:33  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Julian Grimm
The retro-clone movement (Yes it is called that) is really just a small branch of players. Some of what they do is good but not commercially viable and IMNSHO borders on copyright infringement. The movement started when a few got mad at Troll Lord Games over the fact that C&C would not be a word for word redux of 1e. (Or seemed to start PM me if you ant to discuss this further)



Thanks for the offer but I'm not *that* into this, I was just giving a few comments based on my reading some interesting blogs (I'm more of an interested passerby than anything).

quote:
As for their comments on 4e, some actually liked it but most used their favorite 4e bashing names like 4bortion, 4on and such.


I actually didn't see any of those terms, at least not on the blogs I visited. Most such blogs actually didn't dwell very much on 4E, nor were they concerned with bashing it. Again, I have no vested interest here, but you come off as though you have a bit of an axe to grind.

quote:
None few if any saw the game.


How do you know?

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Mar 2009 00:00:38
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2009 :  22:14:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everyone wanting a piece of the pie is all well and good, but when the pie is the size of a quarter, you aren't going to get much of a taste.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Julian Grimm
Seeker

86 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2009 :  19:48:32  Show Profile Send Julian Grimm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Julian Grimm
The retro-clone movement (Yes it is called that) is really just a small branch of players. Some of what they do is good but not commercially viable and IMNSHO borders on copyright infringement. The movement started when a few got mad at Troll Lord Games over the fact that C&C would not be a word for word redux of 1e. (Or seemed to start PM me if you ant to discuss this further)



quote:
Thanks for the offer but I'm not *that* into this, I was just giving a few comments based on my reading some interesting blogs (I'm more of an interested passerby than anything).


Jes trin to be helpful.

quote:
As for their comments on 4e, some actually liked it but most used their favorite 4e bashing names like 4bortion, 4on and such.


quote:
I actually didn't see any of those terms, at least not on the blogs I visited. Most such blogs actually didn't dwell very much on 4E, nor were they concerned with bashing it. Again, I have no vested interest here, but you come off as though you have a bit of an axe to grind.


Not really. I just get tired of some of the attitudes of both sides of the debate.

quote:
None few if any saw the game.


How do you know?




Check places like Dragonsfoot and Knights and Knaves.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2009 :  08:50:28  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Necro is going to make a Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Tome of Horrors.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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