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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 16:46:55
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Just would like to ask here -- has anything ever been written about just what, exactly, the Monks of the Long Death ae actually trying to achieve in the long run as a group?
I like them as villains (I've had this idea about an elf mage who loses his human wife and some of his kids and becomes so depressed he ends up joining the Long Death PrC, becoming a campaign villain) but it would be helpful to know just what the group ultimately hopes to accomplish.
For that matter, have they ever been used in any of the novels?
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 17:42:19
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From what I understand of that group, they wish the preserve the integrity of death itself (not to be confused with the clergy of the current god of Death). They fight everything that would threaten the circle of death, such as undeath. They also promote the beauty of death, mostly by killing (what else?). So most of them kill not for the fun of the act, but for the beauty of the result, ya they are freaks.
In Neverwinter nights 1, a monk of the long death joins the group to fight those who brought the magical plague to the city, since it disturbed the natural order of death (and because many undead creation projects were implied IIRC). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 18:53:07
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| I'm not sure they really have long term goals, other than studying death and "preserving" is sanctity, which is going to vary depending on the individual monk involved. As is kind of implied with the PrC from Player's Guide to Faerun, I'd say many of them act as assassins, not because they want specific people dead, but because it gives them the chance to study many different deaths up close. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 23:56:19
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| The entry for the Long Death in 3e's Lords of Darkness provides some motivational basis for their activities. There's also an example of an estranged monk from the Order in the "Haunted Lands" trilogy who still espouses the teachings of the Long Death somewhat. You get the basic impression of what he's trying to achieve from that. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 10:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
From what I understand of that group, they wish the preserve the integrity of death itself (not to be confused with the clergy of the current god of Death). They fight everything that would threaten the circle of death, such as undeath.
Methinks that especially necromancers and the clergy of death deities like Velsharoon and Kiaransalee are mentioned with the Monks of the Long Deaths (as of the Players Guide to Faerūn ). Wouldn't that contradict the notion about a dislike to undead? |
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Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 14:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
From what I understand of that group, they wish the preserve the integrity of death itself (not to be confused with the clergy of the current god of Death). They fight everything that would threaten the circle of death, such as undeath.
Methinks that especially necromancers and the clergy of death deities like Velsharoon and Kiaransalee are mentioned with the Monks of the Long Deaths (as of the Players Guide to Faerūn ). Wouldn't that contradict the notion about a dislike to undead?
Hmmm right  . Well my idea that they had a dislike for undeath comes from, again, the character from NWN1. He hated them, because no one should escape the hand of death. Now that I think about it, maybe he was reffering to willing undeads, such as liches.
Anyway, what I do know of them from canon source is that they use only natural means to deliver death (such as a knife in the back or a hard punch in the face). I tend to consider necromancy to be an unnatural mean to kill, but Velsharoon does have followers in the organization, so my guess it that what is considered natural differs from one monk to the other. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 22 Feb 2009 14:52:52 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 04:10:37
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This provides me with an opportunity to ask a question I've had for some time: if a character in a campaign wants to become a Monk of the Long Death but is of a much higher level than their published leadership, is it better DMing practice to drastically increase the levels of the Monk leadership or have the character remain obedient even to a lower character-level "superior" indefinitely? Should such a character learn whatever he or she wanted to learn from the Monks and then announces that s/he's done with them and intends to leave (presumably without an intent to make trouble for the Monks) will the order dispatch assassins after him or her -- or not, because there's so little likelihood of taking such a character down in a cost-effective manner? (For example, if 17th-character level ex-Monk-of-the-Long-Death Bobby-Joe has no intention of revealing the secrets of the order, would they be more likely to just shake hands --wearing gauntlets, probably -- and peacefully part company, or would the Monks devote an enormous amount of resources to taking down Bob so that his death will serve as a warning to other "traitors"?)
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 14:08:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
This provides me with an opportunity to ask a question I've had for some time: if a character in a campaign wants to become a Monk of the Long Death but is of a much higher level than their published leadership, is it better DMing practice to drastically increase the levels of the Monk leadership or have the character remain obedient even to a lower character-level "superior" indefinitely? Should such a character learn whatever he or she wanted to learn from the Monks and then announces that s/he's done with them and intends to leave (presumably without an intent to make trouble for the Monks) will the order dispatch assassins after him or her -- or not, because there's so little likelihood of taking such a character down in a cost-effective manner? (For example, if 17th-character level ex-Monk-of-the-Long-Death Bobby-Joe has no intention of revealing the secrets of the order, would they be more likely to just shake hands --wearing gauntlets, probably -- and peacefully part company, or would the Monks devote an enormous amount of resources to taking down Bob so that his death will serve as a warning to other "traitors"?)
Hmmm, I don't really know the level of the monk leadership, but I'd say you should increase it. Of course, Bobby-Joe would be amongst the elite members already, but I think he should have a few rivals, and at least one leader who could kick his a** (like level 20-24). Not to mention that many lower levels might be mad of seeing the new guy take so much credit after such short time, a dangerous situation to say the least.
Now if he truly is devoted to the cause, it might all go smoothly, but if he is... ambitious, it should prove more than he can take. I always enjoy giving lessons of humility at this level range  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 16:12:51
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Depends on how you spin-it.
If you keep the levels lower, then obviously he would be a threat to the 'ruling echelon'. After learning whatever it is he wants from them (I'm assuming a 'dip' of one level, for whatever reason), they (the leaders) may have no problems with him leaving, and may in-fact be exactly what they would prefer to happen. Then, as long as he doesn't act in any way against the group in the future, I can see them just pretending he 'never happened'.
On the other hand, if you raise the levels, then you create a situation wherin the MotLD are more powerful then him, and they may not take kindly to him leaving, and may indeed persue him to eliminate any potential threat (they would assume he was a spy for some other group). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2009 16:15:13 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 18:26:36
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I have to admit - this thread made me read their LoD entry... and I think they all must be a little nuts.
They are seeking the perfect death? 
Why don't they all just kill each other? 
If I used this group, I'd need to change that in a big way. Make it so that they are seeking the perfect way to inflict death, which is more in-line with them being Monks. Maybe even create a PrC around them based on the 'Death Touch' of Kung-Fu masters (using Shakra-disrupting pressure-points).
Edit:
The culmination of such a PrC would probably be the infamous "Five-Step Technique" seen in Kill Bill. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2009 18:29:14 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 04:42:24
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There is a Monk of the Long Death in Unclean (he's also in Undead, but I'd only recommend that book to true Loviatar-lovers). He's a few hundred years old and wants to die, but he knows (or thinks he knows or at least suspects) what his "perfect death" will/should be. He's not unlike the Mysterious Stranger of Kurasawa movies and spaghetti Westerns: he constantly deals with Death, but -- so far -- his Death -- the guy with his name on a scythe -- hasn't come along yet.
Some Monks may study different types of death hoping for an insight (or a divine revelation) into what their death will be, so that they may face every other situation with confidence -- if you believe that you may only be killed by a human guy with one sandal, you aren't likely to fear an orc with two stout boots.
Some Monks may study death so that they may learn to face it with perfect equanimity under any circumstances, whenever it may come for them, such as the samurai who were taught to always wear their best clothing and have their hair styled because Death might come for them on any day and their heads should always look dignified should they be decapitated. (Every mother who tells her children to wear clean smallclothes "in case you're run over by a wagon" can understand this philosophy.) There was a suggestion in Undead that one ought to be able to face death courageously for it to be "a good death;" Monks of the Long Death may be training themselves in something similar to the native American concept that "today is a good day to die" -- and so one should always keep a stiff upper lip when being tortured so that one may always be able to sing one's "death song" with dignity -- or at least not soil oneself when facing overwhelming numbers of people (or things) who want to kill one.
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 09:32:45
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| btw didnt this order appear in the silver marches splatbook?? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 12:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are seeking the perfect death?
Why don't they all just kill each other?
The perfect death probably has to come unexpectedly rather than be a planned one, I imagine. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 23:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
The perfect death probably has to come unexpectedly rather than be a planned one, I imagine.
Not planned by yourself, that is... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 23:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
btw didnt this order appear in the silver marches splatbook??
I don't think so. Or, rather, I don't immediately recall any specific detailing of them in that tome. You might be thinking of the Lords of Darkness book.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 04:24:19
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| Hmmmm... The PGtF has the PrC Monk of the Long Death, but the Dark Moon Monks are mentioned in the Lords of Darkness book as well as the Monks of the Long Death. No other monk PrC's are in the PGtF. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 18:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
The perfect death probably has to come unexpectedly rather than be a planned one, I imagine.
Not planned by yourself, that is...
hehe, yep...and depending on the specifics of the plan, as long as they don't know about it (or the details). |
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Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 22:44:26
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I think it would be interesting to hear Richard Lee Byers perspective on the monks of the long death.
He seems to like those characters as they appear in the Haunted Lands Trilogy and Black Bouquet. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 05:13:45
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Btw, the MotLD are mentioned in the Netheril boxed set under
Jergal's entry. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 15:43:04
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| I'd change this group be more like the Dustmen |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 19:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit - this thread made me read their LoD entry... and I think they all must be a little nuts.
Well, yes.
If they were coldly rational, they probably wouldn't be monks devoted to the worship of an abstract concept. They'd be merchants or perhaps smiths. Or even criminals seeking personal power and wealth in some complex but logical way. In any event, they'd be seeking understandable goals in ways that were predictable and we could easily relate to, even if we opposed them.
But there are already plenty of villains like that. The idea of an intelligent being whose goals are so incompatible with yours that he cannot even be understood, let alone negotiated with, possesses its own terror.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are seeking the perfect death?
Why don't they all just kill each other?
Sometimes they do, of course. But it is entirely possible that a 'perfect death' cannot be easily predicted or recreated. It's not so much a method of death as it is a culmination of a life that has meaning for the individual monk.
Remember, seeking Enlightenment doesn't always mean looking for a light switch. Sometimes it means learning how to see without the lights on. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If I used this group, I'd need to change that in a big way. Make it so that they are seeking the perfect way to inflict death, which is more in-line with them being Monks. Maybe even create a PrC around them based on the 'Death Touch' of Kung-Fu masters (using Shakra-disrupting pressure-points).
Edit:
The culmination of such a PrC would probably be the infamous "Five-Step Technique" seen in Kill Bill.
The thing is, seeking a mastery of the dreaded dim mak isn't incompatible with the description of the Monks of the Long Death. It all depends on the definition of 'the perfect death'.
Perhaps that refers to their own deaths, but not until they've understood fully what it means to die. His death will only be perfect if everything in his life has led to it in some way intelligable only to the properly enlightened. The monk dies satisfied, perfected, because he has finally understood what it is all about.
And their way of doing that is by experiencing and causing the deaths of other intelligent beings. Again and again, in a variety of gruesome manners of death, but all the while regarding the people he kills not as victims or objects of hatred, but as privileged fellow students. In that way, each monk has his own death as his long term goal, but his way of working toward that goal consists of preying on his fellow man.
Perhaps, instead, the goal of each priest is to experience one perfect death. It doesn't matter if it is his own or somebody else's, all that matters is that one exquisite and transcendent experience. This one death which validates the life of victim and murderer, puts the past and future into proper perspective and opens the mind of the monk up the Enlightenment. Cue the music of the spheres and insert Zen fable of strawberry at will.
As with most philosophical movements that aim for personal enlightenment, it is possible that all versions are true for different monks. A perfect death might be different for each of them and one monk's enlightenment might be so much gibberish to another. But to outsiders, they are dangerous serial killers with a way of looking at the world that ranges somewhere between incomprehensible to insane.
I don't know about you, but I find the idea of a Zen serial killer pretty disturbing and would consider using a Monk of the Long Death in my games if I needed a change of pace or a villain with less than comprehensible motivations. |
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Monks of the Long Death -- long-term goals?
