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underthumb
Acolyte
9 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 20:20:32
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As per the title. I'm wondering whether Toril has any above-ground regions with humans or demi-humans with dark-pigmented skin.
Basically, I would like to include some NPCs that appear African, but I'm wondering whether such people even exist on Toril.
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Edited by - underthumb on 17 Feb 2009 01:56:33
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 20:34:24
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| Zakhara, the continent to the south of Faerun, I believe has dark-skinned people. Aslo, I believe that there are dark-skinned people in Chult. I am sure that there are other sages that can elaborate more. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 20:39:15
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| Don't the Gold Dwarves from The Great Rift have skin from Dark Tan to Deep Brown? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 21:18:55
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The turmish peoples are described as dark skinned, as are the people of Chult and the surrounding lands.
Zakhara is more or less the fantasy version of 1001 nights and although I cant remember an area where the people are described with an African influenced culture it would certainly be possible. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 22:16:44
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Most humans living in the Vilhon and south of there have dark skin. African geography and culture are somewhat reflected in places like the Shaar, Chult and the Tashalar, but Realmslore doesn't go into whether they have African features, and there's no African analogue.
Most dwarves are dark-skinned by caucasian standards, Shield Dwarves included. Zakhara is Hollywood-Arabia, and is no more African than Calimshan. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 23:18:43
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| Also, if you read the back-story of the Chultan peninsula in Serpent Kingdoms, you'll see further evidence of where a Africa-like continent of the Realms might lie. The pseudo-Africa continent has been there since TSR introduced it in 2e. This continent has always been the land from which the Tabaxi [and Eshowe, and Thinguth] people originated. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 00:11:27
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The Jungles of Chult AD&D sourcebook depicts the natives of Chult as dark-skinned, broad-nosed, and kinky-haired (see the illustrations on pages 18 and 24, especially). The Chultans are clearly "African-looking," and their garb is somewhat like 19th-century costumes of the Masai, Kikuyu, and neighboring tribes of our eastern Africa. This makes the description of Chult in Realms.New.Coke truly loathsome, like the propaganda of King Leopold of the Belgians when he personally "owned" the entire Congo and had thousands upon thousands of locals killed, tortured or hideously mutilated in order to force them to work on his plantations: in Realms.New.Coke, all of the pseudo-African locals of Chult are "savages" (Hasbro's actual description of them) and the only "civilization" that exists in Chult are Amn's colonies (what were called "factories" during the conquest of Africa by Europeans).
The pre-Hasbro Chultans were mostly sensible, devout, and considerate people deeply concerned with their place in this world and the afterlife; the "lost city" of Mezro -- which was not, of course, lost to its many inhabitants! -- was something like Timbuctu during the height of the Malian Empire; in Realms.New.Coke Hasbro has simply had the whole city utterly destroyed, sucked underground, and populated the pit where it used to be with hordes of monsters -- yet another reason to disregard everything Hasbro has published about the Realms in the past twelve months. Realms.New.Coke is utterly repugnant to human decency.
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 01:26:42
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It's always awkward to answer this question as alot of the sort of geography you'd associate with Africa in Faerun doesn't actually offer a true analogue to it's inhabitants. For instance, the Shaar is very similar to the Serengeti but the inhabitants, (Wemics aside) have a culture more akin to the Plains Indians.
Calimshan, as Faraer says, is more like the Moorish Almohhad or Ottoman Turk dynasties than truly Arabian in flavour.
I think Chult and Mezro's been covered well enough, though I'll say the place has always struck me as a cross between Timbuktu and Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital.
Turmish and the Western Vilhon seem to have large 'African-esc' populations, so there seems the best origin for such NPCs. The city states of the Lake of Steam might be a good place too. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 17 Feb 2009 01:32:00 |
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underthumb
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 01:55:05
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| I appreciate everyone's considered and thoughtful replies. I think I have ample material to make the NPCs that I want. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 02:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Calimshan, as Faraer says, is more like the Moorish Almohhad or Ottoman Turk dynasties than truly Arabian in flavour.
Indeed.
During Steven Schend's later development of the region, he focused on making Calimshan less Arabian and more Turkish/Ottoman Empire [since there was the AL-QADIM setting covering the Arabian stuff quite well].
Steven equates Calimshan with Medieval Turkey and the Byzantine Empire.
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 14:51:55
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Go back far enough and every human on Earth is African.  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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underthumb
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
To echo some of the comments, what do you mean by "African"?
If you put an Egyptian, an Ethiopian, a Congolese, a San, and a Zulu in the same room, you'd be looking a five very different looking people, all from Africa.
I considered whether to be highly specific in crafting my question, but I decided to simply allow for any of the above and more. I recognize, of course, that Africa is not simply one homogenous region, and that it has a great many varied people. Asking for an approximation of someone from the !Kung was likely to receive little in the way of replies. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 23:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
The pre-Hasbro Chultans were mostly sensible, devout, and considerate people deeply concerned with their place in this world and the afterlife; the "lost city" of Mezro -- which was not, of course, lost to its many inhabitants! -- was something like Timbuctu during the height of the Malian Empire; in Realms.New.Coke Hasbro has simply had the whole city utterly destroyed, sucked underground, and populated the pit where it used to be with hordes of monsters -- yet another reason to disregard everything Hasbro has published about the Realms in the past twelve months. Realms.New.Coke is utterly repugnant to human decency.
What happened to Chult (and especially Mezro) really rubbed me the wrong way too. I do indeed find it rather repugnant.
As pointed out before, Egypt is actually on the African continent, so you could say Mulhorand is based on Africa. |
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Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Feb 2009 00:08:27 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 04:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Go back far enough and every human on Earth is African.
-And that is why you get paid the big bucks! 
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 13:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Go back far enough and every human on Earth is African.
Go back farther we were froggy-like and crawling from the ooze and there was only one land mass, so what ever that was called is what we all are! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 13:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Go back far enough and every human on Earth is African.
Go back farther we were froggy-like and crawling from the ooze and there was only one land mass, so what ever that was called is what we all are!
It's called Pangea. So it wasn't really Africa at the time, but that general region is where people showed up.
Ahem. Off-topicness ended.   |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 18 Feb 2009 13:43:48 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 15:41:43
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well, that begs the topic related question...
Did the realms at on point have a pangea type landmass that everything spilt off of? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 15:51:12
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AGotR seems to suggest that. I think I saw a map in there of exactly that kind of thing.
EDIT: I think it explained that the landmasses of Toril were one big land mass until the Sundering. |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 18 Feb 2009 15:52:09 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 00:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Did the realms at on point have a pangea type landmass that everything spilt off of?
Yep, the super-continent was called Merrouroboros by the sarrukh. You can see a map of it in the Grand History on page 6. Yet unlike Pangea, Merrouroboros did not account for *all* landmass on Abeir-Toril during the Days of Thunder. Two continents existed at that time; the second being Osse on the far side of the planet. |
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Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 18:41:41
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| Thanks! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 19:06:01
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Osse may have been part of the pangea-like landmass during an even earlier epoch, much as Australia is suspected to have been, but has been seperated for so long that animals and what-not have developed along completely different evolutionary tracts.
Also, it may have been already seperated, or still part of Merrouroboros* when the world was FIRST split, long before the Sundering, when the planet was broken into two seperate worlds (Abeir, and Toril). I'm thinking some landmasses wound up on one of the worlds, while others (like Osse and that unpronouncable one) ended up on the other.
*As a n amateur cartographer, I think there should be a letter-limit to naming conventions - ESPECIALLY in light of that monstrosity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2009 19:06:49 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 23:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*As a n amateur cartographer, I think there should be a letter-limit to naming conventions - ESPECIALLY in light of that monstrosity.
Lol. It's a mouthful alright (for us humans anyway!). Merrouroboros is a contraction of Merr (meaning home or fatherland) and Ouroboros (the World Serpent). |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 01:23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
To echo some of the comments, what do you mean by "African"?
If you put an Egyptian, an Ethiopian, a Congolese, a San, and a Zulu in the same room, you'd be looking a five very different looking people, all from Africa.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin is right and then some. The Mulan "race" of Faerun is descended from ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians (i.e. with few, if any, Arabs). They are the majority inhabitants of Mulhorrand, Thay, Unther, and much of Rashemen.
A San-type area would be logical somewhere near Zakhara because miniature animals come form there, so why not miniature people, too, but perhaps small because of magical influences instead of genetics?
The Chultans, for there part, look like the Bantu-speakers of central and east Africa, and many of their cultural trappings are quite similar, including their weapons.
I don't think that there has ever been a hyper-militant Black nation on Toril comparable to post-Shaka Africa. To put our ducks in a row, let's recall that the Zulu are not the natives of much of southeast Africa -- they came as super-powerul invaders in the 19th century, long after the Whites were already setting up countries, and the Zulus expanded as rapidly as they did through ruthlessness against the native Black tribes who found Zulu combat methods literally inconceivable; what Zululand might have turned into had the British not decided to destroy it with repeating rifles and artillery is a great, "What if ...?" of Earth history.
Likewise we can't really grok Xhosa- and Basotho-type nations on Toril because none of the Chultan or Zakharan tribes have managed to get their hands on enough smokepowder and guns to pose a dire threat to a Faerunian nation which would thereafter consider them worthy of mention in histories -- the "civilized" Amnians, for instance. Whatever cultures similar to them which exist on Toril just merge into that amorphous mass of humanoids who are called "barbarians" and placed on maps next to, "Hic sunt dracones."
Capnvan's question about "Ethiopians" is like a microcosm of the whole "Where's Africa?" question: There are at least four major biomes in what is now (cartographically) "Ethiopia," from nearly barren deserts to rugged mountains (nor should we forget that the Blue Nile arises in the Ehiopian highlands!). I personally imagine Mezro as what Aksum and Meroe might have become had they lasted long enough to develop late-Medieval and early-Renaissance technology, such as flying buttresses and stained glass windows. (See Ed's replies to my questions about coinage and architecture for some insights along those lines.) The treasuring of holy texts and objects in Mezro is also reminiscent of Coptic Christian religious establishments and pilgrimages to them. Etc.!
Should someone desire to have a hyper-militant culture arise in the Chultan region, I'd suggest a look at the adaptations which have been written for Dungeon Magazine's "Age of Worms" adventure path. If a DM allows some of the side NPCs to escape, many of them would have the ambition and the ability to begin carving out an empire, with or without Kyuss. (Creating such an empire with himself as immortal king is precisely what Kyuss wanted.)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 03:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by underthumb
As per the title. I'm wondering whether Toril has any above-ground regions with humans or demi-humans with dark-pigmented skin.
Basically, I would like to include some NPCs that appear African, but I'm wondering whether such people even exist on Toril.
If you're looking for analogues of African people, then Chult, Thindol, and to a lesser extent, Samarach are the places to look. Samarach is populated predominantly by Tashalans, but 19% of the population is Thindolese. Page 106 of the FRCS shows Thindolese people taking on a nest of Yuan-ti. These people would be racially chultan, specifically of the Thinguth tribe which settled the area.
As for culture, the Tashalan language is heavily Bantu-influenced. The people are more Mediterranean in appearance. Everyone seems to agree that the closest analogues for the Tashtan coast are Kenya and Tanzania. You could imagine Tashluta resembling Zanzibar. |
Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.) |
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Do the realms have an Africa-like region?
