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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2004 : 12:51:54
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| To bad he did not mangage to kill Lathander...he was a cool guy and that book about that cult was a bit cool |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 18:50:23
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I actually just re-read that scene a couple days ago.
I agree with Swordsage that the spell resembles a Spell Engine (which I think is in Magic of Faerun). That Sammaster's Final Sin spell really seems like a solid representation.
(Boy, creating epic spells is really hard for me. They always end up seeming either underpowered, overpowered, or something that doesn't seem worth the time to create in the first place. I have to really practice that.)
As for the scroll, that reminded me of some artifact that might be able to allow the user to ursurp control over beings of an extraplanar origin, or even of divine might.
Either way, that confrontation is the stuff I love about the Realms. Those encounters really make the Realms shine. It reminded me of the epic spell duels in the various Elminster books (or other novels by Greenwood). It's more of what I wished would happen in The Return of the Arch Wizards trilogy. I saw too many phaerimms throwing fireballs and lightning bolts. The war was like a "trading of blows" when it should have consisted of elven high mages and Khelben engaging in exactly the kind of exchange seen between Sammaster and Lathandar. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 01:39:19
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I can agree with your reasonings on RotAW Crust. At times, the battles did seem a little too underbalanced, or overbalanced as the case may be...
But then there was a reason for that, the return of an ancient threat could not have been a 'lite' affair for the Realms, and Denning obviously decided the need for crucial aspects to create the atmosphere of near-dread that he was hoping for.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 03:56:53
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| I wish I could see it so positively. As I have stated int he past, I found the Return of the Archwizards one of the poorer written trilogies of Realms novels. Mainly my problem was, firstly, that Denning set up such a powerful foe that when it came to defeating them he totally wrecked it. It was the ultimate literary deus ex machina, making an impossible enemy and then wining by swallowing Khelben and some other Chosen. All I could do was say wow and toss the book as far away as possible. Secondly, I think Denning was a bit overzealous with the causing destruction, well, everywhere. Destroy Evereska, destroy Cormyr (again), destroy Waterdeep...it just went on and on, and in the end they barely hurt Shade. A bit much if you ask me. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 06:11:21
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Actually, now that I come to think of it, Denning's style (in regards to RotAW) seems to be a recurring trend throughout much of his published works, even outside of the various FR novels he has authored.
Either way, I think we should probably halt, or at least transfer the discussion of Denning and the RotAW trilogy to a more appropriate forum, before Alaundo and his Staff pay all of us a rather unforgettable visit... 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:32:26
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| True I do see a trend their Sage, but it never bugged me much before. On Sammaster, that fact they never made him factually dead left open a very enticing plot thread, especially since he is the rogue Chosen, which leaves many possibilities open. Making good and open plot threads were something they were better at back in Second Edition. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 31 Jan 2004 23:17:00 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:50:24
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| Well, Malanthius (IIRC) made a description to the spell, but I am still curious as to what the thin sheet of metal with arcane glyphs is. Perhaps if any scribe would care to make a description/powers for this item, I would be thankful. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 03:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
True I do see a trend their Sage, but it never bugged me much before. On Sammaster, that fact they never made him factually dead left open a very enticing plot thread, especially since he is the rogue Chosen, which leaves many possibilities open. Making good and open plot threads were something they were better at back in Second Edition.
I agree with you on that. I've very rarely seen any decent open plot threads which really delve into the history of the Realms and provide an interesting opening for players and DMs to exploit for their own games. Sammaster was one very original plot piece.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 00:06:15
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| Honestly, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of my favorite hoem brewed adventures came off the plot threads left open in the hunred or so Realms products published in Second Edition. It is one of those very large differences between Second and Third Edition is that in Second Edition left open plot thread and much fo the information left you with that might be innaccurate felling (you got that fromt eh Volo's Guides a lot). Now, the sourcebooks tend to be so cut and dry, even the fluff gets a crunch at times. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 16:49:36
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I couldn't finish Sorcerer.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 13:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Honestly, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of my favorite hoem brewed adventures came off the plot threads left open in the hunred or so Realms products published in Second Edition. It is one of those very large differences between Second and Third Edition is that in Second Edition left open plot thread and much fo the information left you with that might be innaccurate felling (you got that fromt eh Volo's Guides a lot). Now, the sourcebooks tend to be so cut and dry, even the fluff gets a crunch at times.
You are very right...Nearly every piece of 2e Realmslore that I expanded upon had it's source from plot threads that I read about (and expanded upon) from the various Volo's Guide, although I didn't get that much from All Things Magical...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by the Sage
...although I didn't get that much from All Things Magical...
Really? I thought the Artifacts section was rife with good plot threads. Each history and the various desrciptions of its powers and ways of destruction seemed to have a few good loose threads for a DM to make adventures out of. But, to each his own. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:57:46
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lets rekindle and old topic...
It sounds to me much like a spell engine,
and i think there was mention of chain contigency spells in the cult of the dragon source book. this is how sammaster finished becomming a lich instead of dying, along with teleporting some of his ashes for his new body to eat.
The many spells to contigency, quicken, protect from scrying, teleport, etc. probably needed more energy/ spell levels than sammaster had available. the disk probably was collecting power not to be used against lathander.
and as for being not so bright, he was insane and he was still around when he had to fight the company of 12. sounds like he knew how to survive, even against a god. |
~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 17:27:15
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Page 8, Netheril: Encyclopaedia Arcana. "What is known about the nether scrolls is that they appeared as sheets of gold and platinum. They were covered with magical runes and sigils that shimmered upon their surface'
I suggest that the metal sheet Sammaster bradished at Lathander was one of the nether scrolls (although how he came by it is another question). The scrolls were immune to damage from magic and would reform if damaged by mundane means, perhaps it would require a god's actions to destroy one of the scrolls. If Sammaster cast a contingency spell on the scroll, specifying that the scrolls magic would be released if the scroll was destroyed. Then he waves it threateningly at Lathander...
Of course, we still don't know what the magic on the scroll actually did... |
ooops. |
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Sebastrd
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 00:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Malanthius
Then, with a tremendous effort,
he reached up and sideways with his left hand to elsewhere
and drew back a single thin sheet of metal glinting with a
faint, silvery sheen. Strange symbols and glyphs crawled
across its surface.
Sammaster held it up before him, as if to force Lathander
to read it. Fool! Lathanaer thundered, and Dawnspeaker
came down resoundingly through the metallic
scroll and into Sammaster, whose body twisted in the aftershock
of the blow and then, miraculously, started to
straighten. The scroll shattered in all directions into a million
slivers of light, but one small, dagger-shaped piece
stuck in the golden plate armor above Lathanderës heart,
scratching his chest, and four drops of his blood fell to the
ground at his feet.
My theory on the metal scroll is that it's somehow tied to the prophecy. It's very possible that the shattering of the scroll and Lathander's subsequent loss of blood could be part of the prophecy's fulfillment. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 01:10:52
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| Can someone give me some detailed information about Sammaster's demise and the events that led up to the confrontatino between him and the Morninglord's avatar? All I know is that several Harpers and some Lathandite priests ambushed Sammaster's entourage and then the avatar of Lathander was just injured before killing Sammaster. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 03:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Can someone give me some detailed information about Sammaster's demise and the events that led up to the confrontatino between him and the Morninglord's avatar? All I know is that several Harpers and some Lathandite priests ambushed Sammaster's entourage and then the avatar of Lathander was just injured before killing Sammaster.
The tale is told, in full, in the 2nd edition source The Cult of the Dragon. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 03:23:27
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| Well, I don't seem to possess that tome, which is why I asked all these sages here. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 04:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, I don't seem to possess that tome, which is why I asked all these sages here.
:) Scroll down after clicking the link, its one of the freebies.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 17:59:16
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Well met!
So then ,where is Harrowsmouth, aka the Gate of Hell, where Sammaster the Lich fell in battle agianst the Harpers and the Twelve?
Somewhere in the SE Anauroch to be sure, but is there anything more specific?
Hygelac's kinsman |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 20:39:02
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| well it looks like no-one is biting. I still think Sammasters scroll was one of the Nether Scrolls (see my earlier post). |
ooops. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 06:49:00
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I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it as all I have is a few disparate timeline/realmslore references which point to the above, nothing definite. If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.", which doesn't really add much to the thread. Cheers.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 17:39:08
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Master Krashos,
Did anyone ever find out the answer to this? I looked and couldn't find anything either.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it as all I have is a few disparate timeline/realmslore references which point to the above, nothing definite. If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.", which doesn't really add much to the thread. Cheers.
-- George Krashos
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 21:02:03
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Hello all,
I was just going through my subscriptions to keep or unsubscribe from certain ones, and this one was very interesting to me.
Bumping to see if anyone ever did find anything else out about what that spell was, that Sammaster though to challenge the Morninglord with?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 07:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it
Indeed, there are other possibilities. Including simple "it was added to the empty pages by a later owner".
quote:
If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.",
Also, not impossible.
Who tracked all these?
quote:
from The North (GEOGRAPHY / The Delzoun Region / Morueme#146;s Cave:
All Morueme dragons can speak and use magic. Their spell selection is usually exotic, taken from ancient Netherese and
Ascorian spell books in their treasure (including at least one page of the Nether Scrolls).
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 00:22:40
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Master TBeholder,
I agree with Master Krashos regarding the scroll issue. It seems plausible, but there is a dirth of information that would provide credibility to the idea.
It would be fantastic if we could get an answer from Steve Schend as a person who was somehow involved in the Netheril boxed set (said Special Thanks To), as well as Eric Boyd who was a proofreader at the time. Slade and Jim Butler did the work though, so not sure how they are reached.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it
Indeed, there are other possibilities. Including simple "it was added to the empty pages by a later owner".
quote:
If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.",
Also, not impossible.
Who tracked all these?
quote:
from The North (GEOGRAPHY / The Delzoun Region / Morueme#146;s Cave:
All Morueme dragons can speak and use magic. Their spell selection is usually exotic, taken from ancient Netherese and
Ascorian spell books in their treasure (including at least one page of the Nether Scrolls).
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Sammaster - A Question
