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The Sage
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Posted - 26 Jul 2003 :  13:51:05  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Reading through the Cult of the Dragon tome I came to realise that the spell Sammaster used shortly before he was killed by the avatar of Lathander has never been defined.

Needless to say, this spell would probably be very powerful (probably of epic considerations with 3e rules), and would most likely be necromatic, or, if not that, an invocation-type spell. I would however believe that such a spell would be almost impossible to duplicate, at least not without years of study first.

For those wishing for to discuss this, I refer you to pg. 19 of the afore mentioned tome for details concerning this event.

Thoughts?.


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Malanthius
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Posted - 26 Jul 2003 :  18:48:04  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage  Send Malanthius an AOL message  Send Malanthius a Yahoo! Message Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a wild guess, but considering lathander being a greater god (even taking into account pre-TOT divine levels) and there infamous resistance to magic, Sammaster probably used a spell to affect something else that did physical damage to lathander's avatar. It's what i usually do whenever i have to battle deitic creatures. For some strange reason they're always shocked when you drop a river of lava on them instead of hitting them with a fireball...

Mal.

"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's."
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The Sage
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  02:21:09  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have a point, although in the description of the confrontation, it makes mention of a binding of souls, or some such. I can't check the tome at the moment for clarification, but I remember 'binding' and 'souls'.


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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  12:11:43  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You sure? I didn't see it. I have it in a PDF, and I couldn't find any such mention in that passage with a text search, with both words.

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The Sage
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  12:14:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I may have the spell description wrong, but I am pretty sure about the actual page number. I'll check my copy.


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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  12:56:44  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the page number was right. I just didn't see anything about a "binding" or any mention of "souls."

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The Sage
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  13:00:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still, any ideas as to the spell?.


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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  13:15:29  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None. Sorry. Maybe I'll look at it closer and longer later . . . .

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The Sage
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Posted - 27 Jul 2003 :  13:18:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually I am hoping to get Mournblade's particular take on this. Or maybe even Bran, if he still wants to talk to us, of course .


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Malanthius
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Posted - 28 Jul 2003 :  10:05:15  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage  Send Malanthius an AOL message  Send Malanthius a Yahoo! Message Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, this is a little long but it is an exact quote from Cult of the Dragon I've highlighted the passage in question...

The Death of Sammaster
Lathander heard their dawn prayers. Outraged at the future
Sammaster prophesied and the abominations of creation he
had perpetrated unceasingly, Lathander sent a battle avatar
to the field. The undead creatures forming a wall around
Sammaster disintegrated in a flash of light as the full glory
of the god of the dawn touched them, but the choking ash of
their remains clogged the air immediately as an unearthly
wind howled forth from Sammaster, forming the ash into a
cloud that obscured the sky and turned the dawn light red
as blood. Sammaster's dracolich steed breathed a massive
gout of dragonfire upon the golden breastplate of the Morninglord,
only to scream an unearthly keening wail that
faded into nothing as Dawnspeaker, Lathanderís mace,
smote its head and disrupted its unliving existence.
Sammaster, seemingly untroubled, floated in midair
where his steed had been, and in the twinkling of an eye a
coruscating aura of ineffable blackness surrounded him, as
if a cloak of night and death had been knit about his body.
His eyes glowed dark purple, and he gestured with his
staff, and a mighty turning wheel of faintly glowing energy
appeared between him and Lathander. Energyóthe auras
streaming out from every living and undead being on the
battlefield except Lathander and Sanmasteróappeared as
multicolored threads, and all of them were being sucked
into the wheel, spun around, and pulled tight. Within an
instant, all were taut.
Those who were there speak in what accounts remain of
a sharp pain followed by a sense of anticipation, as if some
hugeóthingówaited just beyond the doorways of their
senses to happen. What happened next is recalled by very
few, and only in dreamlike snatches, as past this point
apparently only Sammaster and Lathander could move.
Lathander looked upon Sammaster and a fierce delight
seemed to play behind his eyes. ìAbomination,î he cried,
ìdie!î Crackling streams of lightning and golden radiance
poured out from his eyes, assaulting Sammaster with
deadly force. Sammasterís skeleton was visible briefly,
glowing like an inner light within his corporeal form, and
he convulsed suddenly in midair, dropping his staff as his
fingers curled into claws. Then, with a tremendous effort,
he reached up and sideways with his left hand to elsewhere
and drew back a single thin sheet of metal glinting with a
faint, silvery sheen. Strange symbols and glyphs crawled
across its surface.
Sammaster held it up before him, as if to force Lathander
to read it. ìëFool!î Lathanaer thundered, and Dawnspeaker
came down resoundingly through the metallic
scroll and into Sammaster, whose body twisted in the aftershock
of the blow and then, miraculously, started to
straighten. The scroll shattered in all directions into a million
slivers of light, but one small, dagger-shaped piece
stuck in the golden plate armor above Lathanderës heart,
scratching his chest, and four drops of his blood fell to the
ground at his feet.
(After the battle these were gathered up
in an amber flask by a priest of the Morninglord from the
village of Hap. Today this holy relic of the Morninglordís
church is revered as the artifact, the Blood of Lathander.)
Lathander reached out with one hand and crushed the
wheel of spellstuff that held all in thrall while twin globes
of dull red and black flew from Sammasterís hands to burst
against Lathanderís breastplate ineffectually. Lathander
gestured, and a hole of light was ripped through the flying
ash that obscured the sun. Light brighter than any who witnessed
the event ever saw before or later in their lives shot
down through the hole, cloaking Sammaster from view.
Sammaster did not have time to even scream as he was
instantly killedóapparently incinerated in the sunís fire.
Upon investigation of the battlefield later, nothing remained
of him but about two pounds of fine ash.
With Sammaster and most of his entourage (containing
the majority of his most loyal followers) dead after the
battle with the Harpers and Lathanderís avatar, Algashon
relocated his personal sect of followers to Urmlaspyr and
then beyond, taking the organization underground as he
had long advised Sammaster to do. Over the intervening
centuries, the sect of the Cult loyal to Algashon and those
cells loyal to the Cultís founder that earlier had been
instructed to branch out across Faer°n came into conflict
many times. In all likelihood, this early schism of the Cult
resulted in the fractious nature of the organization to this
day.

Mal.

"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's."
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The Sage
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Posted - 28 Jul 2003 :  10:10:37  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's the relevant section, thanks Malanthius. I would have done that myself, but I haven't had access to that particular tome since the 26th so...


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Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jul 2003 10:11:21
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Malanthius
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Posted - 28 Jul 2003 :  10:10:47  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage  Send Malanthius an AOL message  Send Malanthius a Yahoo! Message Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would almost seem the damage inflicted upon Lathander's avatar was caused by an unintentional means. The scroll Sammaster conjured seemed something akin to a Symbol spell...

Mal.

"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's."
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 28 Jul 2003 :  22:49:40  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well sammaster I beleive was a master of Lost magics. That could be what it was. Of course it could be EASILY explained with the seeds of the Epic Level Handbook, but of course Cult of the Dragon was not published then...


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The Sage
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Posted - 29 Jul 2003 :  02:00:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking about the ELH, but as you said it really is not relevant due to printing dates.



Malanthius, you may be right about it being something akin to a Symbol spell - maybe an epic level spell of such great power that only a few masters of magic are even aware of it's existence, and even rarer still are the wizards who can actually cast it.


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Malanthius
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Posted - 29 Jul 2003 :  16:49:13  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage  Send Malanthius an AOL message  Send Malanthius a Yahoo! Message Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, didn't the old system have something called "true dweomers"?

Mal.

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Mournblade
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Posted - 30 Jul 2003 :  00:59:53  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pretty sharp...

For a troll

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The Sage
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Posted - 30 Jul 2003 :  05:10:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anybody remember which tome these 'true dweomers' were detailed in for 2e?.

I don't have access to my books at the moment, so any information would help a lot.




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Mournblade
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Posted - 31 Jul 2003 :  07:13:23  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Possibly the 2e hardcover tome of magic?


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The Sage
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Posted - 31 Jul 2003 :  07:22:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, it wasn't in that tome. I have already checked. There is a wild magic spell Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, but that is only a first level spell, and does not exactly perform what is illustrated in that description.

I even looked through Player's Option - Spells & Magic, but there was very little in there either. Hmm...I wonder whether the High Level Campaigns book will have anything on this.


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Edited by - The Sage on 31 Jul 2003 07:27:35
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The Sage
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Posted - 31 Jul 2003 :  07:36:54  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found it.

True Dweomers are detailed in the Dungeon Master Option - High Level Campaigns tome.

Here is a base description taken directly from that tome. It is described by Skip Williams -
quote:
True dweomers are essentially 10th-level spells. I included them not just to satisfy power gamers, but to allow high-level spellcasters to create world-shaking magic. When the rules are used properly, the casting of a single true dweomer can keep a group of PCs busy for a long time.
Of the spells that are listed however, none match the description of the spell used by Sammaster.


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Mournblade
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Posted - 31 Jul 2003 :  22:45:40  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sage it was a special super secret spell sorcered by sammaster. Certain sages of silent keeps are not meant to know it

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The Sage
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Posted - 01 Aug 2003 :  05:29:05  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh...I understand .


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Swordsage
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Posted - 03 Aug 2003 :  03:40:24  Show Profile  Visit Swordsage's Homepage Send Swordsage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems to me that the only spell Sammaster cast was the one that talks about drawing everyone's souls into the "wheel" - that looks to me like a 'Spell Engine' that sucks up life force and perhaps allows the caster to draw on such lifeforce to power their spells, etc.

The 'single sheet of metal' seems to be a magic item, probably an artifact. Of course, when you are messing with the gods, even artifacts only go so far. It'd be interesting if someone could come up with a spell and magic item description for these two things.

- The Swordsage
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Malanthius
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Posted - 03 Aug 2003 :  20:20:35  Show Profile  Visit Malanthius's Homepage  Send Malanthius an AOL message  Send Malanthius a Yahoo! Message Send Malanthius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Into the hallowed halls of candlekeep walks a frequent customer that is slightly differed from the rest of the inhabitants by the fact that he is covered in the tell tale scorch marks of spell battle, some of which are still smoking, all the while muttering "Fire. Why is it always fire? Former chosen of mystra, legendary necromancer, and he still resorts to fire?! Rasafricking lich, doesn't even have the decency to stay dead..." continuing on in this matter the tall figure walks into the Sages quarters and lays a rather decayed and ancient looking journal on his desk. "There it is. This is the LAST time i'm going to just ask somebody what spell they used though." in frustration, the "practioner" strides quickly out of the room to find a means of bathing.


Sammaster's Final Sin
Necromancy
Spellcraft DC: 27
Components: V,S,M,XP
Casting time:2 full Rounds
Range:1200 feet
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half as physical damage
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 250,000gp; 3 years; 10000XP. Seed:SLAY(DC 25)

Destroy the life force of one living creature who's HD is equal to or less than that of the dying creatures(less than 0 hit points) in a 1200ft radious around the caster which are "absorbed" by the caster to empower the spell. Target of the spell must be within line of sight of the caster and range of the spell.Target can make a fortitude save to take half the stolen HD as physical damage.

"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's."
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The Sage
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Posted - 04 Aug 2003 :  12:29:35  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a worthy creation Malanthius. Although I find the "To Develop" requirements may be a little low. I would probably modify the DC as well.


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Nakil Delquion
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Posted - 07 Aug 2003 :  23:32:13  Show Profile  Visit Nakil Delquion's Homepage  Send Nakil Delquion an AOL message  Send Nakil Delquion an ICQ Message  Click to see Nakil Delquion's MSN Messenger address  Send Nakil Delquion a Yahoo! Message Send Nakil Delquion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to let you know, I believe that I read in a Netheril Arcane Age book that Sammaster's spell was of 10th or 11th level (this is Second Edition rules).
Mystra had stipulated that none could cast spells of such a high level, but, it was given to her chosen and her chosen magister the ability to cast a 10th or 11th level spell, ONCE, before falling out of favor with Mystra. After Sammaster had previously fallen from Mystra's grace, he was still endowed with numerous abilities of a chosen and I believe amongst them was this exception to the spell-limit rule. So, if memory serves, his spell was 11th level (maybe tenth) and the reason it was never defined was because no one in modern Toril could use so high level a spell except chosen and the magister, and the writers don't believe any PCs should be chosen or magisters. Though, of course, that didn't stop my DM from allowing my character to become the Magister. He he.

Anywho, I hope this has given you more insight or a different perspective. Enjoy!

Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet.
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