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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13248 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  16:09:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

I do know that Ed has always had some secret maps of a few realms clustered around a sea-gulf, with open sea to the east.. <snip>
I'll trade Ed my first born for a copy of that.

Then again, I wouldn't want to do that to Ed... the kid is 6'5" and never stops eating...

Anyhow, I have LOTS of room on the K-T map for a gulf with some cities, and Wizbro can't get mad at something if they don't know where it came from...

Can't blame a guy for trying...
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Cartographers and map-lovers of the Realms, let us collectively swoon together.

You had me at 'Hello' (or rather, "realms map").

Realms Maps make me drool like one of Pavlov's dogs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jun 2009 00:20:20
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29705 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  18:28:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade


And then, of course, there's the HUGE original map of the city of Waterdeep, that covers the floor of a large room . . .
Cartographers and map-lovers of the Realms, let us collectively swoon together.
BB



How does that map compare to the 10-poster map of Waterdeep that was in the City System boxed set?

(Note: I've got two or three copies of that map set! I do not, however, have enough wall for all of them... I don't think my wife would even entertain the idea of putting them up in the living room! )

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jun 2009 18:34:48
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  20:09:09  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
The map Blueblade's referring to DWARFS the City System map. We're talking over 20 17" x 35" inch white pieces of paper, with buildings drawn on them as black outlines ("empty boxes" not "filled in boxes"). A typical rectangular two-to-three or three-to-four storey Waterdhavian building, with street-level shop and two or three floors of living quarters above, is a rectangle of about 3/4" wide by around 1" long (in other words, the base of an old Airfix model soldier figure will JUST fit inside one, which is how Ed denoted where "the PC party" was, where Watch patrols were, where "bad guys we were following" were, and so on. Trees, ponds, public pumps, fountains, and statues were all included, too.
In other words, HUGE. Two lucky gamers, out there in the world, have copies of this (aside from whoever kept it at TSR, if it didn't just go into the dumpster): it was a "door prize" at a long-ago PHANTASM convention in Peterborough, Ontario (the Guests of Honor that year were Richard and Lilly Garfield, and Ed), and it was a charity auction item at a Milwaukee-era GenCon.
Ed didn't send it to TSR on 17x35 mapsheets; he sent it to them on foolscap-length photocopies, overlapped copiously to minimize photocopier "around the edges" distortion (so buildings would line up, and all distortions, by judicious cut-and-paste surgery, could be shifted into the "white space" of streets and alleys.
When CITY SYSTEM came out, all of us original players were greatly disappointed, not just at the small size of the maps, but at the "districts get strong color hues" rather than having cobbles, dirt, and building roofs. I'm a big girl; I can tell boundaries by myself by reading street names and referring to a 1-page district boundaries guide.
Ah, well . . .
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 Jun 2009 20:09:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29705 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  20:45:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Wow... I'd love to see that original map.

I'd love it even more to own a copy of it, but that's rather unlikely, thinks I.

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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  00:27:51  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by gomez

Looking at how Shar acts made what her goal is, I was wondering whether Shar could be a deified Primordial, rather than a 'mere' deity. History seems to oppose this idea, but if you look at how Shar works in Shadow Realm (from Paul Kemp), it is not hard to imagine her being one - possibly without the other gods being aware - seieng as she was bron from the chaos like the primordials themselves.
What does Ed think of this idea?



Logically, if Shar's a primordial, then so is Selune.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 09 Jun 2009 00:36:25
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  01:02:47  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

And then, of course, there's the HUGE original map of the city of Waterdeep, that covers the floor of a large room . . .
I've got a nice large-ish white-wall in my library room which would be the perfect place for such a map.

Ed, if you ever need a *place* to store it...

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  01:08:53  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed didn't send it to TSR on 17x35 mapsheets; he sent it to them on foolscap-length photocopies, overlapped copiously to minimize photocopier "around the edges" distortion (so buildings would line up, and all distortions, by judicious cut-and-paste surgery, could be shifted into the "white space" of streets and alleys.
By, Shaundakul, that would've been something to see.

A lot of my old Realms maps that I personally generated exist in much the same way. I spent hours ensuring each edge of every page would match-up with the next section of the map. My attention to detail was meticulous. Even when such areas weren't included on maps, or detailed in the Realmslore, I'd generate my own map locations and include them on the map.

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Jun 2009 01:09:56
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Nightseer
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  05:27:03  Show Profile Send Nightseer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Nightseer

Whoa...

What issue was the "DRAGON article on Crimmor" in?


I just bought said issue for $1.00 from Paizo.
Lisa Stevens is selling off magazines cut rate. I guess they are moving.
http://paizo.com/store/blog#v5748dyo5lach
Quick question, It said that Crimmor was the first article by Mr. Greenwood on cities in the Realms. What other issues do I NEED to get?

Shar!

Edited by - Nightseer on 09 Jun 2009 05:32:18
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  06:38:37  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Logically, if Shar's a primordial, then so is Selune.



Possibly - if the creation myth that both are 'true' sisters is correct.
Selune migth have emerged as a primal creature tied to the feywild, a mother-of-archfey (it fits with her associations with the moon and Sehanine Moonbow). The embodiment of light and fey.
Shar could have been a more distructive primal force tied to the shadowfell. The embodiment of shadow and death.
The beings born from their battle would be true deities (a bit like the greek myths) - with possibly a few exceptions to account for darker primal or shadow beings born from Shar, or the archfey born from Selune. The battle that brought forth Mystryl may even have removed part of their primal nature.
They would also have sided with their children in the Dawn War, and being powerful enough to grant spells, possibly awarded by Ao or gained through the birth of Mystryl, people would forget - if they ever knew - of the two's true origin.
But the origin may still be there. Shar is a destructive force, and who says how supportive her role was in the Dawn War, and if she does not, secretly, still turn to the primordials from which she came to have the end of the universe realized. The death of Mystra may have returned a portion of her primal power to her, and in seeking out that power may grow yet again into a primordial force.

Gomez

Edited by - gomez on 09 Jun 2009 06:41:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29705 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  06:47:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by gomez

Looking at how Shar acts made what her goal is, I was wondering whether Shar could be a deified Primordial, rather than a 'mere' deity. History seems to oppose this idea, but if you look at how Shar works in Shadow Realm (from Paul Kemp), it is not hard to imagine her being one - possibly without the other gods being aware - seieng as she was bron from the chaos like the primordials themselves.
What does Ed think of this idea?



Logically, if Shar's a primordial, then so is Selune.



And by extension, Mystryl would have been a primordial, as well.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  08:08:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Folks, it might be more convenient to take this speculative side-discussion about other Primordial-beings, to another scroll. Please? Let's keep this one set on questions for Ed.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  09:52:51  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
It started with a question for Ed: his opinion/take on the Shar-is-a-primordial theory.
I just expanded the theory a bit.

Gomez
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edappel
Learned Scribe

Brazil
211 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  14:36:17  Show Profile  Click to see edappel's MSN Messenger address Send edappel a Private Message
Hey THO...
What's better for Ed? His message, or El's message probably would have the same impact.

Obviously, El's message would be different, but even so, if there's any problem writing on his name, we would understand. Thanks THO!

--- Ed Appel

*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english.
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  17:28:20  Show Profile  Send Rhewtani an AOL message Send Rhewtani a Private Message
quote:

Rhewtani, a proper answer from Ed is still forthcoming, but he wanted you to know right away that the family line persists. Specifically:

There is indeed still a House Tsornyl, though these days they are few in number, go by another name, and are powerful in another place in the Realms.



So ... un ... fair.
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe

242 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  18:41:58  Show Profile  Visit Malcolm's Homepage Send Malcolm a Private Message
Sorry, is this House Tsornyl from A GRAND HISTORY? I'm drawing a blank on where they're mentioned in Realmslore . . .
Anyone?
Thanks!
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  19:12:40  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

The map Blueblade's referring to DWARFS the City System map. We're talking over 20 17" x 35" inch white pieces of paper, with buildings drawn on them as black outlines ("empty boxes" not "filled in boxes"). A typical rectangular two-to-three or three-to-four storey Waterdhavian building, with street-level shop and two or three floors of living quarters above, is a rectangle of about 3/4" wide by around 1" long (in other words, the base of an old Airfix model soldier figure will JUST fit inside one, which is how Ed denoted where "the PC party" was, where Watch patrols were, where "bad guys we were following" were, and so on. Trees, ponds, public pumps, fountains, and statues were all included, too.
In other words, HUGE. Two lucky gamers, out there in the world, have copies of this (aside from whoever kept it at TSR, if it didn't just go into the dumpster): it was a "door prize" at a long-ago PHANTASM convention in Peterborough, Ontario (the Guests of Honor that year were Richard and Lilly Garfield, and Ed), and it was a charity auction item at a Milwaukee-era GenCon.
Ed didn't send it to TSR on 17x35 mapsheets; he sent it to them on foolscap-length photocopies, overlapped copiously to minimize photocopier "around the edges" distortion (so buildings would line up, and all distortions, by judicious cut-and-paste surgery, could be shifted into the "white space" of streets and alleys.
When CITY SYSTEM came out, all of us original players were greatly disappointed, not just at the small size of the maps, but at the "districts get strong color hues" rather than having cobbles, dirt, and building roofs. I'm a big girl; I can tell boundaries by myself by reading street names and referring to a 1-page district boundaries guide.
Ah, well . . .
love to all,
THO



I'm one of the lucky few with a copy of a copy of Ed's original Waterdeep map(s) PLUS the close-ups he'd done for the Volo's Waterdeep materials. It was all part of his turnover for the 1993 CITY OF SPLENDORS box and I've sneakily kept my 1.3 inch-think pile of 11x17" sheets of that map in a safe place. It was vastly helpful when I worked on Blackstaff Tower to check against some of the lesser known neighborhoods up in Sea Ward (as the foundations aren't apt to change, no matter how many times the buildings fall over). :)

Steven
who isn't gloating but noting that Ed (and Professor Tolkien) set the bar on how to detail a world for stories and hopes to put it to use sooner than later....

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  19:17:36  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
Where did you say you live again Steven? I've got a scanner and it would be a TERRIFIC shame if we didn't have an electronic backup of those pages...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs

Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 09 Jun 2009 19:18:22
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  20:57:48  Show Profile  Send Rhewtani an AOL message Send Rhewtani a Private Message
Okay, finally have to ask - and I think Ed might know - about this, since it pertains to early DND Realms.

What happened with Pool of Radiance/Ruins of Adventure? I feel like there has to be a story here.

-Phlan naming structure is bad spanish with a little german thrown in. The Realms details seem to have been sprinkled on after the fact.

-The book is very inconsistent with the adventure (and I know the adventure was from a PC game). The adventure has someone looking for their wizard master ... Ren, while the book has Ren (Ranger/Rogue) teamed up with the apprentice looking for Ranthor.

So, I was just curious - since this is a VERY early Realms adventure, if Ed could talk about it a little.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2009 :  21:49:46  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hmmm. Well, I can tell you this much: POOLS OF RADIANCE, complete with the river and the town/city, was inserted into the Realms by TSR (I strongly suspect that some or all of it was "done" before they bought the Realms), in place of what Ed had there.
So I doubt Ed's going to be able to say much.
love,
THO
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2009 :  02:36:34  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Hi. Nightseer, Crimmor was the only Ed city article ever published in the Paizo era of DRAGON. He finished Teziir and handed it in, but it never saw print before the license was ended, and Paizo handed it to Wizards. As the Realms then got "jumped" into the future, it probably never will get published, now.
This information comes from two GenCons ago (the last sentence from someone senior at WotC I got referred to at last year's GenCon). Ed or THO, please correct me if I'm wrong. So, Nightseer, you've got the only issue you need for cities.
I took notes at some WotC seminars, and from them I can tell you this: Ed had worked out a list of a dozen cities that Paizo got approval to do from Wizards (meaning: it wouldn't interfere with WotC game or novel publishing plans, but they could then use Ed's work for later novels, the way they used Oeble from his POLYHEDRON column, and Selgaunt for the Sembian novels from FR ADVENTURES plus a later lore writeup Ed did for the Sembian series - - and the recent lore writeup Ed did for Waterdeep for the current Waterdeep series). A WotC staffer mentioned we might soon see the capital of Aglarond, so I'd guess that was one of the later cities on the list.
BB
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4740 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2009 :  03:07:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

I seem to recall someone (Rich Baker? Bruce Cordell? The new lore stuff, explicitly, somewhere?) explicitly saying the Dawn Titans (a WotC invention, not Ed's) ARE Primordials.

Dark Wizards, years ago at the GenCon "Ed Roast," Julia Martin brought in the Realms map she'd inherited from Jeff Grubb or Steven Schend: Ed's turnover "master map" photocopies taped together and magic-marker-colored. I distinctly remember she said it was "55 or 59, depending on whether or not you count the sheets that are empty sea except for a few tiny islands" sheets of 8.5" x 11" paper, all oriented horizontally (east to west, to someone looking at a map with north at the top). Ed also drew less-detailed "player's maps" (what you can buy as a PC in the Realms, or assemble out of your own head from your own traveler's knowledge) and lots and lots of city, town, village, and Dale maps, plus fortresses and dungeons, and turned most of them in to TSR. I've seen photocopies of some of the originals, and except for being hand-lettered, they're of professional quality. Dead Orc Pass is even a professional-level topographical map.
And then, of course, there's the HUGE original map of the city of Waterdeep, that covers the floor of a large room . . .
Cartographers and map-lovers of the Realms, let us collectively swoon together.
BB



Whilst I don't have a copy of the big Waterdeep map, Ed had prezzies for the first time we met face to face at GEN-CON 2007. My FR party pack included various maps of the North and the Heartlands as well as some original art of various Knights of Myth Drannor and p/copies of Ed's original hand-drawn graph pad maps of the Haunted Halls including the heretofore never seen (by me) lower level.

The man's attention to detail is faultless and has always been my personal FR standard to aspire to when writing or thinking Realms. To do otherwise would fail to do justice to Ed's amazing work over the last 40+ years.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

613 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2009 :  12:34:32  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hmmm. Well, I can tell you this much: POOLS OF RADIANCE, complete with the river and the town/city, was inserted into the Realms by TSR (I strongly suspect that some or all of it was "done" before they bought the Realms), in place of what Ed had there.
So I doubt Ed's going to be able to say much.
love,
THO


Interesting, Lady Hood I have two questions for you and/or Ed. The first question, you wrote ‘Pools’ in your reply. Is this a typo or do you follow along the path that there are multiple Pools? And now for the really obvious question which may not be answered do to NDA’s: What did Ed have there originally?

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2009 :  14:56:25  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
George, your words of praise for Ed warm me, and I'm sure will make Ed smile happily.

Bakra, I got to see some of the TSR design drafts at a GenCon seminar well after the printed TSR product came out, and the concept there ("borrowed," I suspect from Zelazny's Pattern in Amber and other teleport "gates"/portals from fantasy) was that there were multiple Pools, scattered in remote sites all over the campaign world and even a few other planes, and that those who knew how could "pass" (teleport) from one Pool to another.
So that, of course, coloured my answer.
love,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13248 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2009 :  17:34:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The man's attention to detail is faultless and has always been my personal FR standard to aspire to when writing or thinking Realms. To do otherwise would fail to do justice to Ed's amazing work over the last 40+ years.
Bravo. <we need a clapping smiley>

I'll find juicy tidbits about something (like the Shadowsil) spread through a half-dozen books, and all of it is consistent to itself, and makes the world seem that much more real to us. Its not the 'heavy-hitters' that make the realms seem so real... quite the contrary. Its all those people, places, and things that you "catch out of the corner of your eye" that makes the Realms so different from any other setting I've ever encountered.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hmmm. Well, I can tell you this much: POOLS OF RADIANCE, complete with the river and the town/city, was inserted into the Realms by TSR (I strongly suspect that some or all of it was "done" before they bought the Realms), in place of what Ed had there.
So I doubt Ed's going to be able to say much.
love,
THO

I believe you may be right, THO, and it may go back much further then anyone realizes. A friend of mine who was a DM used the city of Phlan, and that game was run in the early 80's. I think he got the name/idea from a Dragon article, but it may have been some older module (or novel) produced by TSR.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2009 17:35:55
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe

Canada
161 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2009 :  03:24:52  Show Profile  Visit Baleful Avatar's Homepage Send Baleful Avatar a Private Message
I believe I recall hearing Ed once at a con answer a question very similar to Bakra's - - and his reply was something like:

Two small ruined, monster-haunted human cities that had been wealthy mining ports, but got overrun by orcs and ogres so often that eventually the humans stopped coming back to refortify and reoccupy them. They faced each other on opposite sides of a rivermouth, right where the river emptied into the Moonsea.

. . . and he later described one of these ruins as having lots of roosting wyverns, whose presence makes any shipcaptains entertaining thoughts of tying up at the crumbling wharves to rearrange or exchange cargoes have second thoughts.

THO? Ed? Am I remembering rightly?
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