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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29892 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2009 :  22:40:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
That is indeed an awesome bit of lore. I am especially impressed that he spun it without having to contradict what's in the FRCG.

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2009 :  22:50:44  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Agreed.
I love the way Ed made the Titans as powerful as gods yet DIFFERENT than the gods. I told him so, and he reminded me that being as various "lost" gods (the Seven Lost Gods and others) are remembered by mortals only in (distorted) legends, that doesn't prevent the Titans from BEING those "lost gods."
Ed has also made the Titans into a version of the stock "Destroyer of Worlds" trope (they lay waste to worlds they invade, by devouring life-energies, and so must continually move on), and thereby linked them to all the fantasies where there's a quest to "close a gate" to keep some evil out of a world (just to pluck forth one at random, Lin Carter's OUTWORLDER) and, once again, to one of Ed's favorite long-standing fantasy tropes: the battle for control of gates that link worlds (Philip Jose Farmer's WORLD OF TIERS series and many, many others).
Lovely stuff. He hasn't lost his touch, to be sure.

(edappel, Ed tells me he's at work on a message for Alan; do you want it written as from Elminster, or as Ed?)

love,
THO
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Sage of Stars
Seeker

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2009 :  23:01:27  Show Profile  Visit Sage of Stars's Homepage Send Sage of Stars a Private Message
I feel one of my rare needs to delurk coming on . . .
THO and everyone, some years back, at a convention, when Realms fans were deep in arguments over whether or not dragons were a "Creator Race," and Ed had let on that there was a time when dragons ruled the Realms, before humans came to dominate, Ed and I had a chat about the ancient past of the Realms.
He said that in his opinion, dragons had "come to" the Realms through magical gates or rifts, and stayed because they found the word to their liking.
"But why did they come?" I asked him. "Were they adventurers? Or bored teenagers looking for new thrills? Dragons fleeing overpopulation and needing to find new lands full of food to rule over? What?"
"I think they were fleeing something," Ed replied. "A group or race more powerful than the most powerful dragons, who had started to enslave dragons."

Ladies and gentlesirs, I believe we now know who that race or group was!

Now, back then when Ed and I were talking (it's highly worth the time to sit and chat with Ed at conventions, believe me), I raised a design objection to that "fleeing from a more powerful group" theory by asking: "What about Bahamut and Tiamat and other dragon gods in the game?"
Ed replied (I am of course paraphrasing) that gods aren't all-seeing and all-knowing, however much priests may claim they are. And that gods can be duped, or manipulated, or even taken over by some Overpower that speaks through them, and so gains a measure of control over their worshippers.
Holy dancing dragons, Batman! So if Tiamat is secretly a Titan, or the mind-slave of an unseen Titan "puppeteer" . . .
I believe I can hear the sound of DMs starting to rejigger their campaigns, on all sides of me!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2009 :  23:04:42  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
You, sir, remember things all too well!
I now know why Ed added this line to me, in the e-mail in which he sent me his lore-reply to Wooly:

Sage of Stars just may have something to add to this, once you post this and he reads it. Let's just keep mum for now, and see (heh-heh).

Ladies and gentlesirs, they're all around us. We stand in the midst of . . . a conspiracy!

love to all,
THO
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2389 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  01:05:59  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
I believe I can hear the sound of DMs starting to rejigger their campaigns, on all sides of me!



Or DM's ignoring it completely. But that's another great thing about Ed: he doesn't care if you mix and match, or selectively ignore lore to better suit your campaign, your players, or your preferences. In fact, he expects you to.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  01:25:00  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed has also made the Titans into a version of the stock "Destroyer of Worlds" trope (they lay waste to worlds they invade, by devouring life-energies, and so must continually move on)...
I knew it! Ed's a Galactus fan.

Awesome write-up Ed. This is indeed where the grandness of your lore-crafting ability shines through. You compliment, rather than contradict previous work on Returned Abeir -- ensuring that fans of either the pre- and/or post-Spellplague Realms can find something to use here.

Good stuff, as always.

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Edited by - The Sage on 07 Jun 2009 03:01:40
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe

Canada
161 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  02:06:07  Show Profile  Visit Baleful Avatar's Homepage Send Baleful Avatar a Private Message
Yes, indeedy! I especially like the way it explains how characters (the inhabitants of Shade) and even gods (Cyric, Shar) could do things "they shouldn't have been able to do" . . . we now know it was the unseen help and influence of the Titans making such things possible. Perhaps with everyone not knowing it . . .
Brilliant. Just brilliant.
And we got it for free, too!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13435 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  06:50:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
The only thing I could possibly add to Ed's great 'Laerakond Now!' lore is that if you use it to replace Anchorome, you should double all distances (which leaves lots and lots more room for cool stuff, like ruins and 'bandit Kingdoms').

In fact, BRJ was asking me recently about using Ed's far-western Island chain (which was detailed in an L-List entry I found) in a version of Anchorome, and if we go back to the original concept of Anchorme just being the Island Chain, then Laerakond could be the continent 'behind' them.

I feel a map coming on....


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2009 15:49:40
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  15:43:25  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
I bring a reply of sorts from Ed to Rhewtani, re. this query: "I understand that the city Tsornyl was destroyed by a Moander-related creature in 75 DR. The House of Tsornyl lost most of its members in that incident.
What was the basic status of the House in the later eras (specifically, 1340s-1350s).
I know the city was reduced to a village. Did the house regain any footing or does it eventually die out?"

Rhewtani, a proper answer from Ed is still forthcoming, but he wanted you to know right away that the family line persists. Specifically:

There is indeed still a House Tsornyl, though these days they are few in number, go by another name, and are powerful in another place in the Realms.

So saith Ed. Mysteriouser and mysteriouser, as Alice might have said . . .
love,
THO
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2009 :  22:14:26  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message
Wonder work on Returned Abeir sir. I might actually use that bit at least in
passing.

More questions for the que:

Who or what made the Onaglym, when was it created, and what was its purpose?
What are some of the elf clans that have gone extinct due to the Weeping War?
Which of the mage schools in Myth Drannor did the adventure "Lashan's Fall" occur in?
Next time I have a neat theory about Hesperdan I want to give out to the
group.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  00:19:08  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message
Hi Lady THO and Ed,

I recall mention that the original Realms only went as far east as Thay and perhaps the Endless Wastes (before TSR added whole continents). If a character (before the Kara-Tur days) inquired about what laid far beyond even the Unapproachable East and the known world for the people of Faerun, what would be the answer? What rumors and stories trickled through the wastes about potential distant locales, legendary denizens and fabled realms? What in those rumors and tall tales are fact?

Thank your both for taking the time to answer questions.

Also that wonderful post of Ed's about Laerakond as applicable to pre-4E Realms, just fantastic. It helps open up a whole new realm of possibilities without restricting anything. It's done in a way that is coherent with the rest of the setting and offers a number of enticing plot hooks. As always a pleasure to read and ponder over.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  02:45:51  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi, all.
News flash from Ed: the 2008 Spin A Yarn story, which is over 20,000 words long (and incorporates, if only in small and sneaky ways in some cases, EVERY LAST STORY ELEMENT suggested here at the Keep and by the seminar audience at GenCon) has been turned in to Wizards. Its working title is: VOLO BREAKS A HOT TALE, and tells me it is set in Waterdeep and even has a plot, "once you get to it."

So, expect some forthcoming reading pleasure on the Wizards website.
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  03:01:27  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, everybody. A few swift matters . . .

althen artren, a little bird tells me we may in the fullness of time learn more about Hesperdan in published Realmslore.
That is: already-written but not-yet-published, canon Realmslore (and no, not a Spin A Yarn story).

Dark Wizard, it's a pleasure to answer the questions you and every scribe pose here at the Keep, for both Ed and myself. Ed is one of those writers who never forgets that, behind and beneath all the contracts and marketing strategies and author tours, he does this for fans, not for publishers.
To answer your questions:
The original Realms did not end at Thay, nor the Wastes beyond. "Known Faerun" ended about two mapsheets east of Thay, with "everyone" knowing that there were lands, strange and exotic and never seen except by dragons and other flying creatures, or folk with access to magic or flying steeds, beyond (east of, and south of) what the maps showed.
Of course, bards and priests and everyone else knew they were free to make up all sorts of wild stories about those Far Lands - - and did so, especially when they needed excuses to account for contraband, things gone missing, and failures of magic or grand plans.
As a longtime player in Ed's home Realms campaign, I can confirm that this was what folk "knew" and were told. From my notes I can probably dredge up half a dozen tales our PCs heard in taverns or around firesides, down the years of play - - and some persistent names and rumors I took note of.
I do know that Ed has always had some secret maps of a few realms clustered around a sea-gulf, with open sea to the east, that didn't get shared with TSR back in the day because they specifically called a halt to his sending in stacks of lore, and said (I paraphrase, of course) "Save it for some other day or other project, we've got more than enough to work with here."
I also know that Jeff Grubb took the attitude that what Ed never submitted and got paid for was still Ed's, not part of TSR's purchase of the Realms, but I have no idea how Hasbro's lawyers, all these years later, would view those unseen lands. I suspect Ed will be reluctant to share details of them here for fear of landing himself - - and Candlekeep - - in possible legal troubles.
Nor does it seem likely, unless Eberron's newest incarnation and the current WotC business models fail utterly, that the Realms will be resurrected in a form that would want new lands added to the east.
After all, we now have Laerakond/Returned Abeir to play with, to the west, and we STILL don't have half the level of detail Ed wanted, for the familiar bits of Faerun. Remember his DRAGON article on Crimmor? Ed wants about every third city as one travels along major trade-roads in the Realms (including every capital city, of course) detailed to that level, with the ones between left to individual DMs to flesh out.
Ah, so much to do, and so little time . . .
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 Jun 2009 03:04:26
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Nightseer
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  03:07:30  Show Profile Send Nightseer a Private Message
Whoa...

What issue was the "DRAGON article on Crimmor" in?

Shar!
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  03:41:05  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message
Lady THO,
Thank you for your reply. I suspected the majority of details on those far lands would old NDAs or virtually so given the direction TSR and WotC chose to take with the areas beyond Faerun. Already the lore tidbits you revealed give me much to digest. Knowing how Faerun proper actually used, rumored about, elaborated upon, or embellished those areas goes a long way in "filling in the map" (so to speak) in a continuous way coherent with the overall vibe of the Realms.

Jeff Grubb is right of course, having Ed's interest (and general fairness) in mind as opposed to some corporate lawyers doing their job. Ed should hold his unrevealed creations to unleash if and when he decides and the time is appropriate. We never know what will happen in the future or what setting-altering calamity may befall the Realms. Alternatively, perhaps Ed will someday consider them as seeds for a standalone setting that we could all not-so-stealthily slip east of the Faerun map with a knowing wink and nod amongst fans.

Going back to your response, you said "Known Faerun" ends two map sheets east of Thay. How much distance is two map sheets? What was on those map sheets?

I'll throw one last comment out, preaching to the converted style. We certainly don't even have half of the detail Ed wants (or most of us here want). Even then, that's only about a third of the setting. Its mind boggling how much room and potential there is, despite some misplaced perception to the contrary.



quote:
Originally posted by Nightseer

Whoa...

What issue was the "DRAGON article on Crimmor" in?



It was in Dragon #334.
An excellent article and a sorely missed style of article now that I don't get Dragon. The article gave Crimmor a character, life, and history of its own far beyond the brief blurbs it gets in most books.

Edited by - Dark Wizard on 08 Jun 2009 04:43:38
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
623 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  04:56:14  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message
I'm sorry, but I saw the avatars of the two scribes above me (Nightseer and Dark Wizard) and all I could think was 'JAWA RAID!'.
Ok, I'm better now.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:02:42  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
Looking at how Shar acts made what her goal is, I was wondering whether Shar could be a deified Primordial, rather than a 'mere' deity. History seems to oppose this idea, but if you look at how Shar works in Shadow Realm (from Paul Kemp), it is not hard to imagine her being one - possibly without the other gods being aware - seieng as she was bron from the chaos like the primordials themselves.
What does Ed think of this idea?

Gomez
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:18:37  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi, all.
News flash from Ed: the 2008 Spin A Yarn story, which is over 20,000 words long (and incorporates, if only in small and sneaky ways in some cases, EVERY LAST STORY ELEMENT suggested here at the Keep and by the seminar audience at GenCon) has been turned in to Wizards. Its working title is: VOLO BREAKS A HOT TALE, and tells me it is set in Waterdeep and even has a plot, "once you get to it."

So, expect some forthcoming reading pleasure on the Wizards website.
love to all,
THO

Awesome news! My thanks, Lady, for the update.

I'm looking forward to some new Volo-fiction.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:25:51  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Or not, if you prefer; I designed both the continents of Faerūn and Laerakond to function perfectly in isolation, each as a campaign setting.


Noticed that - one of teh dumbest ideas of WotC was to NOT make it into two settings. With two setting books. And two player guides. And an adventure. Missed chance, really.

Ah well. I haven't done much with Abeir. I may get a chance to play in it come GenCon.

How does the lore re: the Dawn Titans work in 4e Realms? I am stuck to canon, but how to match it?
And does this mean this Gods War occurred after Toril was created, so after the fight between gods and Primordials (I am thinking Titans are Primordials, and the Primordials were already defeated by then)?

Gomez
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:28:38  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gomez

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Or not, if you prefer; I designed both the continents of Faerūn and Laerakond to function perfectly in isolation, each as a campaign setting.


Noticed that - one of teh dumbest ideas of WotC was to NOT make it into two settings. With two setting books. And two player guides. And an adventure. Missed chance, really.

Ah well. I haven't done much with Abeir. I may get a chance to play in it come GenCon.

How does the lore re: the Dawn Titans work in 4e Realms? I am stuck to canon, but how to match it?
And does this mean this Gods War occurred after Toril was created, so after the fight between gods and Primordials (I am thinking Titans are Primordials, and the Primordials were already defeated by then)?

Gomez


I think the Titans and Primordials are "apples and oranges". It was in answer to how to fit Laerakond into pre-SP realms without the "Returned Abeir" baggage. In other words, a different take on the same place, not lore to the current 4E.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:37:07  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
Yes, but the Primordial vs Gods war also happened in the Pre-realms, iirc, before Toril was created.
And my question was how to fit it into 4th ed Realms.

Gomez
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Nightseer
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  06:40:08  Show Profile Send Nightseer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

I'm sorry, but I saw the avatars of the two scribes above me (Nightseer and Dark Wizard) and all I could think was 'JAWA RAID!'.
Ok, I'm better now.


Your Droids belong to me now.

Shar!
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
216 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  10:37:30  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage  Send Drizztsmanchild a Yahoo! Message Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message
Actually I thought NS and DW's avatar looked a lot like the dink-dinks(the little creatures who helped Lonestar find Yogurt):P
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Nightseer
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  10:46:27  Show Profile Send Nightseer a Private Message
Oh, it's Dr. Manthingy. I was wondering where you wandered off to. Did you get lost, or something? Now all we need is your boy JD to show up and then you two can whisper sweet nothings to one another.





Shar!

Edited by - Nightseer on 08 Jun 2009 11:20:51
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2009 :  16:02:58  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
I seem to recall someone (Rich Baker? Bruce Cordell? The new lore stuff, explicitly, somewhere?) explicitly saying the Dawn Titans (a WotC invention, not Ed's) ARE Primordials.

Dark Wizards, years ago at the GenCon "Ed Roast," Julia Martin brought in the Realms map she'd inherited from Jeff Grubb or Steven Schend: Ed's turnover "master map" photocopies taped together and magic-marker-colored. I distinctly remember she said it was "55 or 59, depending on whether or not you count the sheets that are empty sea except for a few tiny islands" sheets of 8.5" x 11" paper, all oriented horizontally (east to west, to someone looking at a map with north at the top). Ed also drew less-detailed "player's maps" (what you can buy as a PC in the Realms, or assemble out of your own head from your own traveler's knowledge) and lots and lots of city, town, village, and Dale maps, plus fortresses and dungeons, and turned most of them in to TSR. I've seen photocopies of some of the originals, and except for being hand-lettered, they're of professional quality. Dead Orc Pass is even a professional-level topographical map.
And then, of course, there's the HUGE original map of the city of Waterdeep, that covers the floor of a large room . . .
Cartographers and map-lovers of the Realms, let us collectively swoon together.
BB
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