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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 20:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
More than once Ed has included scenes in his fiction about the true wisdom of the veteran trained archwizard being knowing when NOT to use power.
Mr. Pratchett also has that in his discworld novels. The wizards are very good at NOT using magic, since in far too many places where they practised no such restraint, grass will never grow again... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 20:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So saith Ed. And there you have it, Faraer and all. Useful Realmslore; clip and save! (Collect [ahem] 'em all!)
I did ;) This will be helpful.
Gomez,
who wished he could have a PokéBall with a THO inside... ;P
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 02:30:49
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No, no, gomez! "PokéBall" is what * I * do to YOU. 
Ahem.
Realms relevance? Oh, yes ...
bradhunter, Knight of the Gate, and other interested scribes: Ed has confirmed that his view still stands: Kelemvor (and by his instruction, his clergy) ignore baelnorn. That is, they do not treat them as undead to be destroyed, and deal with them only as necessary; polite avoidance and minimal contact is best (and being as Ed is the creator of baelnorn, he's by definition the go-to expert on them).
According to Ed, archliches are regarded as undead to be aided in achieving their task/mission and then cajoled to "pass on" into true death rather than hanging around; archliches who disagree, or who have established "unfulfillable" or really long-term tasks or missions for themselves, are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis (i.e. Kelemvor, working through his servants as proxies, wants to truly understand the motivation and natures of each individual archlich before deciding on a policy towards each particular archlich).
I grinned at that and sent Ed a "weasel, weasel, weasel" tease, and he replied:
Weasel, of course. :} Yet on the other hand: why not? Herein lies the sort of roleplaying that should be at the heart and core of every long-running D&D campaign. So long as the DM arranges it so that players, through their characters, have a chance to govern/substantially influence outcomes, rather than being reduced to spectators of the DM's acting out events.
So saith Ed. Here endeth the latest word from the Greenwood.
love to all,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 02:37:39
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khorne, yes indeed!
Both Ed and I love Terry's books, and devour them all as they appear. (Attendees at the last Toronto Worldcon may remember Terry's panel, wherein he and Ed, who shared the panel podium with him, got along just fine.)
Knowing when NOT to use your magic, and the folly of forgetting that prudence, is an old, old idea in fantasy literature (as in: at least as old as the knightly romances and Celtic folklore, to say nothing of the Brothers Grimm). Ed and Terry just both happen to believe it should apply to the truly wise spellhurlers in their respective fantasy worlds, and both of them have firmly put it there, by example and by narrator's comment. More than once, each. 
love,
THO |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 13:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, no, gomez! "PokéBall" is what * I * do to YOU.
That is a promise?
Would Ed like to explain how he determines regional (or racial) names? Is it a 'gut feeling' mix-and-match (which is basically how I do names) or does he use a certain system (i.e. the use of certain vowels or combinations of letters for names in specific regions or races)?
Gomez,
who recalls the last years of the Living Greyhawk campaign (other setting, I know), where PC wizards/sorcerers apparently got so lazy they would teleport or fly anywhere (often polymorphed or shapechanged), rather than walk... It got so 'bad' that Nesalia (my PC) banned the use of magic in her bathhouse out of sheer annoyance over the ego-tripping.
Ands tehn she went isnane and almost set her bath house on fire.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 14:22:56
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I was gong to repond to the Pokéball thing, but I bit my tongue...
Now I just can't help myself. The first thing I pictured in my twisted little mind was throwing one of those much-beloved red & white balls and yelling "Hooded One! I choose you!"
"Hooded One! Saucey Dance Attack, now!"
Anyhow, Ed, and Terry, and many, MANY other authors (including 'pulp' greats such as Howard and Moorcock, and tons and tons of folklore) traditionally have mages growing weaker as they cast spells - something sadly missing in D&D (I have my own stamina system which deals with this).
Any author worth his salt will portray Magic-users thusly, and thats why a truly great Mage knows how to do the most while exerting the least amount of energy. Many a Magister tired himself out, only to be taken by surprise by another contender for the title (and why Mystra had to change the rules). Only an idiot - or wet-behind-the-ears apprentice - uses-up his best spells at the start of any conflict.
As shown in Elminster in Hell, even an Archmage and Chosen of Mystra can leave himself so exhausted as to become helpless.
Magic itself is a resource, and like any resource, you must use it wisely, and sparingly. This is a hard-won lesson that comes with age and experience, and as we know, anything that comes with age is something Elminster should be exceedingly good at. 
Elminster is more about being 'proactive', then 'reactive'. Very little happens that he hasn't already anticipated. He actually enjoys it when an opponent surprises him, just for the novelty of it.
Another reason that is occasionally used in stories for NOT over-using magic is the Yin-Yang principle, or rather, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." We see this with both Gandalf and Belgarath - you do not go-about changing the wheather unless you have a very good reason, because somewhere else in the world you just created an entirely new wheather problem. I've even seen that applied in Marvel comics, and it is one of the few 'limiting factors' of Dr. Strange's magic (and why he won't meddle in the timestream - it usually leads to something far worse).
And the reason why I bring this up is because I have yet another question - which THO could probably answer - does that come into play at all in Ed's Realms? I'm fairly certain Ed uses the first one - that Mages become weaker as they use magic - but I'm not sure how much he applies that second 'law' (Basically, the Butterfly effect). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:08:41
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He does. During the climactic spell-battles near the end of SPELLFIRE, the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, and other Ed books, Ed wrote a lot of "window cutaways" that were akin to this:
Meanwhile, somewhere in Amn, an old and mighty duskwood turned a brightly glowing pink, tore itself up out of the forest loam, and shot several hundred feet into the air. Several vastly impressed vultures, squawking on nearby branches, promptly turned into green flowers.
(I'm making that one up, paraphrasing Ed rather than quoting him, but it's fairly close to the sort of passage Ed wrote.)
Unfortunately, these are the sort of touches that editors who don't "grok the Realms" sufficiently furrow their brows at, proclaim, "Huh?" - - and edit out. So the published books contain very few of them. They're always there in Ed's original manuscripts, though. Nor is this a problem confined to Ed's Realms fiction. Copy editors at other publishers have pounced on such touches with such comments as: "Doesn't directly advance the plot" and "Seems part of another book, dropped in by your word processor, perhaps?" and so on. One wonders just how anyone writing fantasy books above the level of, say, car-chase and bang-bang gets them published these days. (As an editor, hearing - - and in Ed's case, seeing with my own eyes, written on manuscripts - - such horror stories make me sick. If the editor wants to tell a story their way, they should write their own book. Of course, they'd better make sure they get to edit it, too, or they'll know just how it feels to have someone tromp all over their prose.  )
love to all,
THO |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:14:21
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Hi, Ed and THO.
I was watching an old M*A*S*H* episode yesterday, wherein the 4077th encampment was freezing in unusually cold weather. The action opened with a poker game being played for socks, hats, scarves, and so on.
Which made me wonder: in the warmer parts of the Realms (Chult, the Tashalar, etc.), how often does sudden cold weather hit, and how do "just plain folks" deal with it? Are there closets full of "keep warmer" clothing that people maintain? Do they build fires and huddle around them? Does this sort of weather bring travel and commerce to a grinding halt (i.e. merchants don't bother to travel to markets to open their stalls)?
Thanks!
BB |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:19:52
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Ah, MASH! Now, THERE was good TV scriptwriting. Then, as now, too few shows display it. Sigh. Guess that's the nature of talent: never enough to go around.
Which (ahem) leads to my question: in stable, long-term, relatively non-tyrannical regimes like Waterdeep and Cormyr, how many smart, capable, dedicated courtiers are there, and how many drones and lazy obstructionists? Does the proportion of "bad bureaucrats" increase steadily over time, or does the presence of the War Wizards in one place and the (masked, and therefore able to snoop "out of uniform") Lords in the other help to weed out the really corrupt and keep things groaning, if not humming, along?
Thanks in advance. No rush on this one, I'm just curious. |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:23:53
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This talk of M*A*S*H reminds me to ask: is Ed doing - - or has he done recently - - any television writing that he can tell us about?
Some of the dialogue on NCIS, though modern American, has at times reminded me of some of Ed's dialogue in his early Realms novels.
Thanks. |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:27:24
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Dear Ed and Lady THO,
I was at a party last night at which some writers were discussing the pros and cons of joining SFWA. Is Ed still a member?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was a lifetime member; true? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 15:32:49
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Hi again, all.
Yes, Broken Helm, Ed is a Lifetime Active Member of SFWA. I'll leave it to him to comment on those pros and cons. SFWA has done some great things, and been very useful, but has also been home to many, many vicious internal feuds and bickering, down the years. I DO know that Ed ALWAYS votes in its elections and for the Nebulas, and diligently reads every work he can find that's on the ballots and candidates' platforms, too, so as to place his vote most intelligently - - which argues that he takes that part of SFWA very seriously.
love,
THO |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 20:26:09
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If I may try to give a tentative answer:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay:
Another reason that is occasionally used in stories for NOT over-using magic is the Yin-Yang principle, or rather, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." We see this with both Gandalf and Belgarath - you do not go-about changing the wheather unless you have a very good reason, because somewhere else in the world you just created an entirely new wheather problem. I've even seen that applied in Marvel comics, and it is one of the few 'limiting factors' of Dr. Strange's magic (and why he won't meddle in the timestream - it usually leads to something far worse).
And the reason why I bring this up is because I have yet another question - which THO could probably answer - does that come into play at all in Ed's Realms? I'm fairly certain Ed uses the first one - that Mages become weaker as they use magic - but I'm not sure how much he applies that second 'law' (Basically, the Butterfly effect).
Well, I don't know whether this is Ed speaking or Troy Denning, but this is what Vangerdahast thinks, from Death of the Dragon, Page 183 (hardback edition):
"The problem was that wishes were reasonable things. They were entirely reasonable, and it was that which made them entirely unpredictable. For the multiverse to stay in balance, there had to be a certain equilibrium so that even as the thing the wisher asked was granted, something he did not wish also came to be. If people could simply go around wishing thing without consquences, the multiverse would quickly go unstable and spin out of control. By wishing Nalavara out of existence, he had merely taken her out of his immediate existence and placed her in another where he wanted her even less, and the multiverse had stayed in balance." |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 01:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, Ed, and Terry, and many, MANY other authors (including 'pulp' greats such as Howard and Moorcock, and tons and tons of folklore) traditionally have mages growing weaker as they cast spells - something sadly missing in D&D (I have my own stamina system which deals with this).
Any author worth his salt will portray Magic-users thusly, and thats why a truly great Mage knows how to do the most while exerting the least amount of energy. Many a Magister tired himself out, only to be taken by surprise by another contender for the title (and why Mystra had to change the rules). Only an idiot - or wet-behind-the-ears apprentice - uses-up his best spells at the start of any conflict.
I'm sure Terry Brooks' Shannara books would be a part of that "magic at a price" theme. One of my earliest fantasy reads was "The Elfstones of Shannara" and I vividly remember an ending scene where the druid-mage Allanon reveals how his magic has burned away much of his lifeforce and aged him. He says, "There is only so much life/power given to us, only so much, and no more." |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 02:26:44
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Hi, all.
Menelvagor, that's one of Troy's passages. Ed was facing heart surgery at the time that book was being written, so in case he "went" early, he wrote the death of Azoun scene first, then worked his way backwards through the book (he and Troy having divided up the chapters). In general, if you have Tanalasta onstage, or Vangerdahast onstage outside of Suzail, you're in Troy's hands.
Back at the time just post-publication of the book, we went through in detail "who'd written what." (Each collaboration Ed has done has happened in a different way, because Ed wants to try every sort of method, and so always wants his collaborator - - Jeff Grubb or Rob King or Troy or Elaine Cunningham - - to "do" the collaboration the way they're most comfortable, and Ed will go along with whatever they prefer, so they're happiest and we get the best resulting writing, and so Ed has the fun of potentially doing it differently every time.
love,
THO |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 07:49:03
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| Well, that's certainly interesting. But the question is, did Troy write this scene without 'agreement' from Ed, or did Ed agree with the general theory given in this scene? |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 08:11:37
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Hello again everyone,
Ed and LHO, I have a question regarding how the different religious faiths of Faerun carry out executions within their own organizations (i.e. for heresy or unforgiveable crimes), or against a sworn enemy of their faith or ethos (usually another deity's followers.)
My curiosity springs from two sources: your article on the Scarlet Mummers engaging Loviatans with dance, bladed boots, and chimes of harmonic agony, and a description from a novel that notes how Oghmanytes once bound authors of false/evil tomes with their books and burnt them both amidst bonfires.
I'd imagine evil gods decreeing specific methods on how to execute heretics or enemies of the faith more often than goodly gods, but you never know (I was surprised by Llira's Mummers). I'm most interested in the faith-based execution methods of Mystra, Lathander and Sune if they exist, but anything that you share would be wonderful.
Thanks in advance!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:17:48
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I had always thought gods merely placed the thought "Kill the infidels!" in the heads of priests, and clergy came-up with all the interesting and inventive ways to carry that out.
The way heresies work, and the way 'godly power' works (especially post-ToT), I think a god would support his/her own heresies, if only because it would attract persons to the faith who would not ordinarilly be drawn to it. I think mortal priests would have the bigger problem with them, because they view them as competition.
Now, going against other religions is a whole different ball of wax, and something that is quite common in the Realms. I wouldn't mind hearing about how certain churches 'handle' executions of specific other god's clergy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jul 2009 16:54:47 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had always thought gods merely placed the thought "Kill the infidels!" in the heads of priests, and clergy came-up with all the interesting and inventive ways to carry that out.
The way heresies work, and the way 'godly power' works (especially post-ToT), I think a god would support his/her own heresies, if only because it would attract persons to the faith who would not ordinarilly be drawn to it. I think mortal priests would have the boigger problem with them, because they view them as competition.
Now, going against other religions is a whole different ball of wax, and something that is quite common in the Realms. I wouldn't mind hearing about how certain churches 'handle' executions of specific other god's clergy.
MT, I'm always amazed at your ability to totally threadjack a topic on a side-trip to Mordor, but then bring it back to the Shire before you wrap it up.   |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:30:34
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Hi, all.
Menelvagor, Ed was in total agreement with Troy (they did each read each other's chapters, and Troy asked Ed to do a "light overwrite" to catch anything that didn't "sound like the Realms" [meaning dialogue or detail that was just wrong; as I recall, Ed didn't find anything that he felt was "wrong enough" to justify monkeying with another writer's storytelling]).
The agreement was hardly surprising; Troy and Ed were, after all, both game designers who worked a lot on and with D&D (Troy on staff, Ed as freelancer), and the DM misuse and player abuse of wishes was one of the "hot problems" of the game at the time. For one thing, any novel writer, faced with a book in which a beloved monarch dies or a kingdom is faced by a great monstrous foe, has to dispose of the "so why doesn't someone solve/prevent the whole thing with a properly-worded wish spell?" (and leave us with no book full of derring-do) conundrum.
love,
THO |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:32:48
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| Re. killing priests: discipline within a church is one thing, but killing off your own priests, if godly strength is tied to amount of worship, would seem to be counter-productive. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:35:26
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I remember this being discussed at a Milwaukee-era GenCon seminar about the Realms, and Ed and some TSR staffers agreeing that "cleansing fire" would be the most popular method of killing a "completely fallen and unrepentant" priest. Yes, those are direct quotes; I took notes.
BB |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 15:38:46
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Re. this, from our Lovely Lady Hooded:
"a book in which a beloved monarch dies or a kingdom is faced by a great monstrous foe"
. . . I just wanted to comment that I always loved how that book was both; it could have been a great train wreck in which the one overshadowed the other, and ALMOST was, but in the end . . . wasn't. |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 20:37:03
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I just got around to reading Ken Hite's Tour de Lovecraft, and it struck me that giving the same treatment to Ed's Realms fiction would be a very useful and fun read (themes in Ed's tales).
What do other scribes think? What do YOU think, Ed and THO? |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 20:47:32
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Wellllll... I see a problem with it.
Not that Ed's work isn't literarily worthy of it (heck, the very success of the Realms, even if the world sold ten products and its sole popularity was Drizzt novels, qualifies it; far more obscure writers, turning out stuff that many will agree is "bad" [really hack pulp writers, for instance], have received such treatment in the past).
The "problem" is that Ed (thank all the gods of the Realms!) isn't dead and gone and hasn't stopped writing about the Realms, yet.
The Chulthu canon is alive and flourishing, but Lovecraft is long dead and so a critic or writer or anyone else can look over his entire canon and reach some valid conclusions; we can't yet do that with Ed's writing, despite its vastly greater volume than Lovecraft's (Lovecraft's own writing, that is, not counting the letters and non-horror and everything else that Hite leaves out), because it isn't finished, and Ed could change any conclusion by something he writes next, or two books from now.
We can't yet see the "whole picture" when it comes to Ed's themes. I can list some of them off the top of my head (for instance, the "little guy/gal or common man being forced into doing something heroic, and doing the right thing, and that being as heroic as any wild action sequence"), but I can't yet draw a final, valid conclusion about Ed's use of them because Ed isn't finished using them.
It's like looking in Ed's kitchen and saying, "Okay with meats and vegetables, but doesn't do pastry at all" - - and the next day Ed starts learning how to bake for the first time, and becomes a superb (or lousy but persistent) pastry cook, and stops preparing meat and vegetables and anything else. My first opinion is then not just dated, it's useless. |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 20:53:19
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Full agreement with Sage of the Stars, from me. As Tolkien used to say about critics of LOTR (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting exactly): "I'd prefer that they waited until I was dead - - and I'm not, yet."
I know quite well the marketing reasons behind calling Ed's short story collection the "Best of Ed Greenwood" and doing the same with Elaine's, but in both cases I winced. Who knows what better short stories they'll do later?
I happen to think that at least three of Ed's SPIN A YARN tales, despite all the silly ideas he was forced to include in them, are better STORIES than many in his "Best" collection. I also happen to know that several tales that Ed considers better than the ones that were included in that book were left out of it for various reasons.
Judging Ed's Realms fiction without having seen most of it is a waste of time, IMHO. By all means let's discuss the themes Ed's shown us thus far; just leave any notion of "touring his canon" out of it. We've seen probably three or four rooms in his literary mansion (I hope). |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 20:55:40
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I, too, am going to wheel my creaking old bones up to stand in agreement with A Publishing Lackey and Sage of Stars.
Not that looking at Ed's themes is a bad idea, Baleful Avatar. It's just that the sort of overview Mr. Hite gives to Lovecraft just can't be gained with Ed, yet. Not that both men haven't given us all great sandboxes to play in. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 20:59:53
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Acck! I turn my back to do some Canada Day security work, only to see "litter-ah-choo-er" discussions breaking out behind me.
"Ed Greenwood: Guilty of Literature?"
Reminds me of Terry's face, when someone started reading out his (real) version of that (spun from Terry's by me) book title while interviewing him: a little pleased, a little amused, and a little despairing. 
Oh, nooooo! (And so forth.)
Just let Ed write the next dozen Realms things first, okay? Don't distract him with this; look at all the unanswered lore questions we have here at the Keep for him to dig through!
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 01 Jul 2009 21:05:50 |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 01:01:10
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Aysen
My curiosity springs from two sources: your article on the Scarlet Mummers engaging Loviatans with dance, bladed boots, and chimes of harmonic agony, and a description from a novel that notes how Oghmanytes once bound authors of false/evil tomes with their books and burnt them both amidst bonfires.
Both examples sound wrong. In the former, subjecting the Loviatans to pain before death would seem to be playing straight into Loviatar's hands, and the other just seem wrong for a largely neutral faith (false/evil tomes... what?! That seems a highly highly highly subjective judgment to make for a god of knowledge (knowledge is knowledge, evil or not)! Maybe it's just that burning books is abhorrent to me... *shrug*).
quote:
I'd imagine evil gods decreeing specific methods on how to execute heretics or enemies of the faith more often than goodly gods, but you never know (I was surprised by Llira's Mummers). I'm most interested in the faith-based execution methods of Mystra, Lathander and Sune if they exist, but anything that you share would be wonderful.
If execution is really performed by good faiths (I have no doubt about evil faiths, they'd be very cruel about it too), I would hope that truly good faiths would make their execution methods as quick and painless as they could - and only after they were 100% sure, with no doubt about it, that the person they're executing was really guilty... Also, given the way the afterlife works (and given what everyone knows about it, particularly clergy), killing an enemy is just handing them back to their deity (especially if they were true to their deity). It's can't be much of a punishment.
It's possible that my opinion here is coloured by modern sensibilities, but execution just seems like a wrong headed approach to punishment for a good society. (Most modern western nations have done away with the death penalty, and for very good reasons.)
Anyway, just my musing. I will be interested in Ed's answer to this question too. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 07:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Aysen
My curiosity springs from two sources: your article on the Scarlet Mummers engaging Loviatans with dance, bladed boots, and chimes of harmonic agony, and a description from a novel that notes how Oghmanytes once bound authors of false/evil tomes with their books and burnt them both amidst bonfires.
Both examples sound wrong. In the former, subjecting the Loviatans to pain before death would seem to be playing straight into Loviatar's hands, and the other just seem wrong for a largely neutral faith (false/evil tomes... what?! That seems a highly highly highly subjective judgment to make for a god of knowledge (knowledge is knowledge, evil or not)! Maybe it's just that burning books is abhorrent to me... *shrug*).
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I'd imagine evil gods decreeing specific methods on how to execute heretics or enemies of the faith more often than goodly gods, but you never know (I was surprised by Llira's Mummers). I'm most interested in the faith-based execution methods of Mystra, Lathander and Sune if they exist, but anything that you share would be wonderful.
If execution is really performed by good faiths (I have no doubt about evil faiths, they'd be very cruel about it too), I would hope that truly good faiths would make their execution methods as quick and painless as they could - and only after they were 100% sure, with no doubt about it, that the person they're executing was really guilty... Also, given the way the afterlife works (and given what everyone knows about it, particularly clergy), killing an enemy is just handing them back to their deity (especially if they were true to their deity). It's can't be much of a punishment.
As to the Scarlet Mummers, they are special militant sect devoted to punishing the Loviatans for daring to murder a high priestess who was Llira's lover during the Time of Troubles. Ed personally makes no mention of the magical chimes in his article, but the item is later mentioned here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070306a) as being used by the Mummers to show the Loviatans that true pain comes from the loss of love, not scourges. Nice flavor text, but like you I'm skeptical as to whether a Loviatan would take time to appreciate the irony...
As to the Oghmanyte practice, unfortunately I can't remember which novel I read it from, but the speaker refers to the burnings in the past tense, so I assume that it was a practice that was either isolated, or met with disfavor and was not continued.
Also, while I hope that none of the goodly faiths of Faerun have as cruelly elaborate methods of execution as their evil counterparts, I suspect that not all would go for quick beheadings/sword-through-the-heart type executions. Hence, I didn't request those for whom "quick and painless" would be most likely, such as the three T's (Tempus, Torm, and Tyr) or Ilmater. Aside from Lathander, the other two faiths tend more toward neutral/chaotic goodly tendencies which might allow for some surprising practices.
Finally, elaborate and ritualized executions are more for the living than the soon-to-be dead. True, it's a final punishment for that individual, but it's also meant as a deterrent for those who would follow in his/her wake ("This is the fate that awaits you, and its not going to be pretty!"). For the victimized religious community, perhaps it also serves to satisfy a visceral need for vengeance, more than a rational desire for justice. In any case, though the execution sends the offending person straight to their deity, that's one less individual running around on the Prime Material advancing their deity's goals.
Anyways, I'm glad that I've piqued a few others' interest on the matter. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2009)
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