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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  07:58:34  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Barshevy

I'm going to go back and read Spellfire. I remember it as a fun book, and I'm a bit confused regarding the animosity towards it.

You might also want to spend some time reading through Ed's previous replies to questions about the both the content and the writing of the Spellfire novel itself. They make for interesting reading.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  16:03:11  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Very good point, Sage. I don't want to go on talking about SPELLFIRE, but Ed has said publicly more than once that no one has ever seen the book he wrote, only various "heavy edits" of it. It was cut (by other hands) by almost two-thirds, and rewritten (not by Ed). With that said, I was astonished, a few years back, to read Gaider's comments; that's VERY unprofessional, when the company you work for, and on whose boards you're commenting (identifying yourself in your posts as a company designer), has licensed a property.
Imagine the fan furor that would have resulted if the first thing Peter Jackson had said, when word spread that he was going to do THE LORD OF THE RINGS, was that Tolkien got it all wrong and he was going to fix it and do much better.
I've read the first Gaider novel, and I found it to be a fast-moving adventure, with some good characterization and some "I know big words, see?" passages of overwriting. In short, a better-than-average first novel.
I'd guess that Ed will probably find a politer way to say much the same thing, because he's Ed - - but I shouldn't put words into his mouth. After all, he's done all or a share of, what, 160-plus books now? He's probably learned how to probably speak for himself . . .
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  16:14:32  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Very well said, Blueblade.
One other facet of the entire SPELLFIRE affair that always seems to get neglected and overlooked is that Ed was asked to write the book for a specific purpose: "show us the Realms."
In other words, it was always intended to introduce LOTS of characters and locales, without necessary having a central plot that resolves. It was a specific writing assignment, not a "write us a story." That a complete change in the management of the Books Department (between Ed being given the assignment and the book being delivered) meant got viewed very differently from what it was intended to be.
And as what Ed was asked to do, even in the seriously shortened version that first got published, it succeeds admirably: it throws tons of vivid characters, places, and Realms details (of food, washing up, jargon, et al) at the reader.
Though Ed still winces, almost every time he sees a copy. Sigh.
love to all,
THO
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  16:31:10  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message
Please let Mr. Greenwood know that I was introduced into his writing by Spellfire, but my personal favorite of his so far is Elminster in Myth Drannor. I always try to run Myth Drannor (well, I should say when I used to run my Arcane Age campaign) the way that he showed it to us in that novel. The sights, sounds, and the wonders. My players have always enjoyed that part. I guess I get my love of describing that city of legend from reading his own words on it. I always read it, put it to the side, and try to picture it in my own mind. Truly, it's one of his best in my opinion.

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  17:16:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
I was fortunate enough to read Spellfire only recently, and it was the newer edition that Ed was able to 'patch' to the best of his ability (although still not the original novel, I have to assume it reads much better then the version I never got to see).

Great Yarn, and a perfect example of what I was talking about above - Ed's 'world-building' style. Its also the perfect introduction to the Realms - how a small party of fairly weak characters can accomplish great things.

Thats what the Realms has always been about.
It's a setting built from the ground-up to go adventuring in.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2009 17:16:39
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  23:43:25  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message
I recently read Elminster Making of the Mage. Boy would I love to have a map of that area at that time. Those Magelords really got my attention.

So Sage do you have a list of the Magelords around by chance?

I am going to start El in Myth Drannor tonight at work.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  23:51:56  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I recently read Elminster Making of the Mage. Boy would I love to have a map of that area at that time. Those Magelords really got my attention.

So Sage do you have a list of the Magelords around by chance?

I am going to start El in Myth Drannor tonight at work.

BRIMSTONE



I thought there was a map in Ed's Athalantar article in Dragon #228. That article also contained the Magelords. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 23 Apr 2009 23:52:21
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  00:41:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
No map, but a description of Athalantar and the surrounding environs at the time is more then adequate to picture how things were.

Also a VERY comprehensive list of Magelords was includied, with backgrounds, physical descriptions, etc, etc...

Ed never disappoints.

I just double-checked (you threw me when you mentioned a map) - fortunately that mag is never more 12" or so from my fingertips. It really is a must-have issue.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2009 00:44:40
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  00:48:06  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I recently read Elminster Making of the Mage. Boy would I love to have a map of that area at that time. Those Magelords really got my attention.

So Sage do you have a list of the Magelords around by chance?

I am going to start El in Myth Drannor tonight at work.

BRIMSTONE



I thought there was a map in Ed's Athalantar article in Dragon #228. That article also contained the Magelords. :)

Hmmm... I don't recall any maps for Athalantar being published.

The DRAGON #228 article and the entry for Athalantar in Lost Empires of Faerūn [pg. 88] provide some details on how the nation was geographically situated. It should be enough for you to plot a rough map of the Kingdom of the Stag.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  01:55:38  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Ed drew a very detailed map of Athalantar, at the request of TSR, and sent it in. It was, of course, never published, and remains their copyrighted property (whether or not it ended up in the dumpsters, when TSR was shut down), so Ed can't distribute it now.
Sigh.
However, from memory I can tell you: Hastarl occupied the site of present-day Secomber, the river effectively formed the southern border of Athalantar (and had much the same location and meanderings as it does "today"), but the High Forest hadn't been cut back nearly as much, then, and extended long fingers down almost to the river's edge in the east, and so as to almost divide the realm into segments, west of that.
Ed is still scrambling to get back atop his paid writing commitments and real-world obligations (such as his taxes), but promises a return just as soon as he can.
love to all,
THO
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  04:23:14  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message
Thanks Scribes and THO.

Now I wonder where that Dumpster would be. I would go "Dumpster Diving" for some of Ed's Realmslore.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 24 Apr 2009 04:25:18
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  05:13:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Sure, sure...

We know your just looking for some Pizza crusts and a half-eaten bagel....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Barshevy
Learned Scribe

275 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  05:58:12  Show Profile  Visit Barshevy's Homepage Send Barshevy a Private Message
I hope TSR / Wizards pays Ed for all these gems that they never use !
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  08:28:38  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message
Well I have a shrink wrapped copy of Dragon 228 on the way via Noble Knight.com Plus Volo's Guides To Waterdeep, The North, and The Sword Coast.

Now if only Ed could do a Pathfinder Chronicals book or three for Paizo.

BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  12:25:51  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

Currently resisting the urge to make a few long winded observations about Spellfire (it's the novel that drew me into the Realms, but it's not without problems - not all of which can be attributed to the editors chopping large amounts out) and David Gaider (in whose defense I will say that he was bluntly expressing his opinion on a single novel, and not the entire Realms or about Ed Greenwood)... But this talk about David Gaider brings me to the topic of Neverwinter Nights 2 (yes, I know NWN2 is by Obsidian not Bioware - but it's the mental association of the two).

I just purchased Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir, and was most interested to find that one of the major NPCs you interact with, at least at the start of the game, is the irrepressible Volothamp Geddarm. He's one of the few NPCs to be fully voiced, and his converse is rather amusing (well done whoever wrote his dialogue!)... Volo also takes on the part of the narrator, and he makes an off hand comment at the start that made me curious - apparently Elminster stopped Volo from publishing "Volo's Guide to the Behaviour of Nymphs" because it was too naughty. Now I'm pretty sure that probably wasn't the real reason, I wonder if Ed knows (or can take a guess, knowing El and Volo) what the real reason was? Or was it really just too naughty?

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  13:36:27  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message
I have a question that I'm sure one of you will be able to answer, though if Mr. Greenwood has more information on it, I'd *love* to hear it. Was the city of Lothen of the Silver Spires in the High Forest in 2nd Edition, or was it added later for 3.xE? I've been looking at my old 2nd Edition maps but I don't have any that really detail the High Forest all that well. Hmm... come to think of it, I'm sure that Markus can answer part of this too. I'm especially curious since my players and an NPC of mine recently took control of the city after cleansing it from orcs. I'm really proud of them. They did it so well! Also, was Lothen an idea of Mr. Greenwood's for 3E (provided it wasn't part of 2nd Edition)?

Also, since every edition kind of stayed away from the High Forest, are there any parts of elven lore from that area that Mr. Greenwood can share with us? Pretty please?

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document

Edited by - Penknight on 24 Apr 2009 13:38:54
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  19:13:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Out of curiousity, Zandilar, what year does that game take place in? It appears to be pre-plague, and yet we have Zehir...

Does it use 4th edition rules?

"Volo's Fieldguide to Nymphs"...

Maybe El was afraid Volo was going to be giving away 'trade secets'.

And Volo-style guides for Golarion would be pure WIN.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2009 :  21:24:49  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Storm of Zehir is last 3.5 expansion for NWN2.

It is pre-plague and introduces the diety Zehir attempting to gain a foothold in faerun.
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  00:15:59  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Out of curiousity, Zandilar, what year does that game take place in? It appears to be pre-plague, and yet we have Zehir...


I think it's 1374 DR, I'd have to start up the game to check (if it even says?). There's also a doomsayer that predicts the death of Mystra in the first town you come across.

quote:
Does it use 4th edition rules?


It's using the NWN2 engine (though they've done some interesting stuff with it, including allowing you to have a self-created party that can interact in conversations), so it's still the hybrid 3.5e rules (computers generally can't implement game rules fully) that was used in the OC and Mask of the Betrayer.

quote:
"Volo's Fieldguide to Nymphs"...


Hmm.. I dunno if I really want to read about Volo's romp with some nymphs. (On the other hand, if Volo was a girl... )

quote:
Maybe El was afraid Volo was going to be giving away 'trade secets'.


HA!

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  00:30:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

There's also a doomsayer that predicts the death of Mystra in the first town you come across.
I guess Mystra was the only one who didn't see it coming.

quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Hmm.. I dunno if I really want to read about Volo's romp with some nymphs. (On the other hand, if Volo was a girl... )
I'm down with that.

Thanks for the reply (and I apologize to the mods - I should have asked her in PM).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  14:11:38  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Was the city of Lothen of the Silver Spires in the High Forest in 2nd Edition, or was it added later for 3.xE?
Lothen is first mentioned in print in the Dragon #228 Athalantar article discussed above.
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  15:07:43  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Was the city of Lothen of the Silver Spires in the High Forest in 2nd Edition, or was it added later for 3.xE?
Lothen is first mentioned in print in the Dragon #228 Athalantar article discussed above.

Ok, thank you!

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Longtime Lurker
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  20:35:29  Show Profile  Visit Longtime Lurker's Homepage Send Longtime Lurker a Private Message
Hmmm.
Dear Lady THO and Ed,
All this talk of Volo reminds me of a rumor that was making the rounds some years back. So I thought I'd ask: is there, or is there not, an unpublished Volo story (by Ed) kept under wraps all these years because of its amusing and scatalogical nature?
Or was that just the fabrication of someone wanting to inflate Ed's "dirty minded" reputation?
Thanks.
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  20:59:58  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
Well, now. I have a similar but different request. I know Ed wrote and published at least one novel (FOOL'S MASTER) before SPELLFIRE, and a lot of short stories, but are there any other completed and professional-quality novel-length works that Ed wrote in his early years? Either published, that I've missed, or never published?
Thanks!
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2009 :  21:21:43  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
What I'd love to know is: are there any Wizards plans to publish another collection of Ed's Realms short stories? I loved the first one, and it had a LOT of previously-unpublished fiction.
In fact, one of my idle dreams is a poll or contest run by Wizards for "great Realms moments of the past that we'd like to see," or some such, involving Ed characters (so, none of Drizzt's or Liriel's pasts, because Bob or Elaine should write those). Then Ed would write a short story covering that moment or confrontation or big event or just the personal life of a character who right now is only a name.
I'd LOVE to read a book like that. (Hint, hint.)
BB
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