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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  02:52:51  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Heh. Seamstresses as something more sexual is far, far older than Terry (he's looking back some centuries at our real world).

Kajehase, Ed tells us:

Tenants have all three of those options open to them in Cormyr, and usually choose the third (but sometimes the second). This is the norm across the Realms, wherever tenant farmers exist.
In Amn, however, only coin is accepted by the landlord, so the farmers have to sell their crops or labour as dearly as they can, to get coin enough to pay (or be forced into a period of unpaid labour, in lieu).


So saith Ed. Who is busy busy busy with Realms writing, these last few days.
love to all,
THO
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Aysen
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  05:14:56  Show Profile  Visit Aysen's Homepage Send Aysen a Private Message
Hi Ed, THO, and fellow scribes,

It's been some time since I visited, and I see that the lore-pile hasn't suffered for my absence in the slightest

My curiosity has led me to ask you questions on two separate areas:

1.) With respect to the entrepreneurial mage Aurora (she of the oh-so-useful Catalogue), was she your creation? If so, are there any other notable members of her former adventuring band (aside from Jhegaan the Maestro?) as of 3.5 edition? I'm interested in whether any of them have become as prominent as her.



2.) In the novel "The City of Splendors", after Khelben is laid low by a magical backlash, his apprentice Tammert Landral prays to Mystra for guidance and reassurance and sacrifices one of his memorized spells in the hope that his prayer is heard. (Mystra does later answer him in a somewhat direct fashion.) This whole scene intrigued me, as this was the first I'd ever read of a wizard doing this.

Was Mystra moved to respond more because the situation involved a Chosen who happened to be the apprentice's master, or because Tammert had made a personal sacrifice of one of his spells? Is this practice common among mages who wish to show the depth (or urgency) of their devotion? Does the number and power of the spell(s) sacrificed cause a bigger reverberation in the Weave so as to draw the attention of Mystra or Azuth? And accordingly, would such a sacrifice be similar to "lighting a votive candle" for giving up a simple spell, all the way up to "offering the fatted calf on the holocaust pit" for a major sacrifice of the Art?


Thanks Ed!

Edited by - Aysen on 29 Nov 2009 05:17:57
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  05:44:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Oh, I like that second question!

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2893 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  06:12:31  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message
Thirded! The second question that is THO.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  06:14:13  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

In Amn, however, only coin is accepted by the landlord, so the farmers have to sell their crops or labour as dearly as they can, to get coin enough to pay (or be forced into a period of unpaid labour, in lieu).
Actually, this ties in somewhat, with my current campaign. Thus, my question.

Ed, have there been any officially documented cases in the past, whereupon coin wasn't accepted by a Amnian landlord? Perhaps because the landlord was feeling generous, or agreed to other more "special" types of payment...

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  20:02:48  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all!
Some quick housekeeping, as we wait for more Ed Realmslore...

Aysen, Aurora and her band weren't Ed creations, but I've sent your queries to him, of course, to see if any of the band were drawn from Ed's NPCs (he created batches of them for the use of others at TSR, back in the day), and to see if he incorporated them into "his" ongoing Realms and created ongoing histories for them.

As for your second question (or series of same), I can tell you that Mystra DEFINITELY responded more because of Tammert's sacrifice than because Khelben was involved; I can speak this emphatically because Ed and I discussed this, in the past, and I remember that much of his reply, right off the top of my head. And yes, for those mages who venerate Mystra more deeply than, say, Azuth or other deities, offering a memorized spell as a sacrifice IS a common practice.

Menelvagor, Ed tells me he will have more to say about Haelaera, for you.

Sage, Ed also tells me that there have been many cases where Amnian landlords have accepted other payment than coin. Here are his words:


Some Amnian landlords find it more advantageous to have a debt or "favour" forgotten, or something that was witnessed formally but secretly repudiated, in a document the landlord keeps hidden until (if ever) it becomes needful. Some landlords even prefer taking payment in the form of taking over one end of a business deal, or accepting part ownership in something (or even, in the case of some of the more venal landlords, carnal access to a tenant's wife or daughter), or taking a prized horse or just the right to breed that animal (and keep the resulting offspring). In short, there have been many exceptions, down the years, but Amnian law doesn't formally speak of them, most Amnians don't publicly discuss them (they fall under the heading of "accommodations," meaning not places to stay but things yielded in private, in business negotiations), and non-Amnians would think them very rare and unlikely.
Like a real-world statement beginning with "The government always - -" it's one of those cases where there are always exceptions . . . but don't count on being one. :}


So saith Ed. Who is hard at work in the Realms as I post this.
love to all,
THO
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  20:08:57  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
Another question, but this one I feel is of utmost importance. Perhaps even more than Aysen's question (which I fourth):
In Elminster's Daughter, when Noumea visits Candlekeep, a monk named Thaerabho speaks with her, and reveals information about the Thayans. He reveals that the Chosen of Mystra have worked against the Thayans, and I quote: "With spells they 'twist' many of the portalsestablished by the Thayansin thier enclaves so those who use such translocations can have sapells stolen from their minds en route, suggestions planted, memories and information 'read', and so on." Thaerabho continues to reveal that the Chosen can blow up the portal along with all those using it at the moment, or implant a suggestion in all those who pass through it to do what they want; he gives attacking Szass Tam beofr he succeeds in some evil ritual as an example.
How true is this? Has any use ever been made of this, if it is possible? Is it still possible to do this after the Spellplague?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'."
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2009 :  22:59:30  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

I was just thinking about pantheons lately, because I was a little concerned with the way the pantheon for my home brewed world is coming out. Then I realized that the Faerunian pantheon seems to have the same problem...

It seems there's dearth of actual familial relationships between the deities. Most Real World (tm) Pantheons have somewhat of a family tree - the Greek/Roman pantheon and the Norse pantheon for example (which are the two I am most familiar with!)... This is something I'm planning to fix with my homebrew pantheon, because it seems to be more realistic for the gods to have closer ties to each other... But, what about the Faerunian pantheon?

About the only relationships other than alliances (which are listed in each deity's entry, but not many details are really given about the nature of those alliances) that we know of is that Lliira and Waukeen were once very close, Lathander was once Tyche's lover and is now Chauntea's, Tymora and Beshaba are sisters in the sense they split from the same initial deity, Eilistraee is "unusually close"* to Mystra, and Tempus seems to think of The Red Knight as a daughter. The Evil deities have less of this (or it could just be I'm missing something because they don't interest me as much). I have probably left out some of the relationships, but I don't seem to remember there being very many.

Why is this? Page count? Editors wanting to steer clear of making them too much like real world pantheons? Or just simply the nature of the pantheon?

* That is a direct quote from Demihuman Deities, not just me putting quotes around the words implying a euphemism that isn't there. Though I must admit, I gleefully read more into the wording than is probably really there.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3524 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  01:07:28  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

THO, I just saw the "Cover" to Elminster Must Die. It was in the WotC Summer Catalogue. August 3 2010, just in time for Gencon.

I was wondering if that was a Mock Up or the real deal. It shows El in front and the Simbul behind him surrounded by blue/silver fire. It also had some Warriors facing them. All, in all really nice cover.

The blurb said that El has to "feed" The Simbul Magic Items so she wont go insane..., and that their stash is running out!

So what if any can Ed share on that tid-bit?

It also said that when you have been alive as long as Elminster you tend to get alot of enemies. So is this Ed's version of the FR Master's of Evil teaming up against El and The Simbul?

August needs to get here now!




Wow...The Simbul may be all strung out on magic.....that could make for some interesting reading! I just hope some of the magic items he feeds her are his enemies!

Glad to hear its got a date and I just pre-ordered my copy!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  06:17:44  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

It seems there's dearth of actual familial relationships between the deities.


Well, there is a lot of import, and deities probably consider each others as 'bloody foreigners' or 'new kids on the block' for quite some time. Anyway, just to add from what is known before Ed adds his own:

In 4th ed there are a few extra relationships. Tempus' lover is Beshaba. Bane's consort is Loviatar.
And don't forget Kelemvor-Mystra, the hotbed that is the Seldarine (with the Lolth - Corellon Larethian - Sehanine Moonbow love triangle), and the actual family relations between Selune, Shar, Chauntea, Mystra, a load of other deities that were 'born' of the fight between Selune and Shar.
Also, Tyr once courted Tymora.

Gomez
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  07:49:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
That's brilliant Ed. Thanks.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  10:36:44  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
Oh, another quick question which has probably been asked: Noumea Fairbright, who visited Elminster in Elminster In Hell with four other Sembian ladies and became his apprentice, is the same as Noumea Cardellith, who appears in Elminster's Daughter as an ally of Joysil. What did you intend by having her appear again?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'."

Edited by - Menelvagor on 30 Nov 2009 10:38:48
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  16:08:07  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar


It seems there's dearth of actual familial relationships between the deities. Most Real World (tm) Pantheons have somewhat of a family tree - the Greek/Roman pantheon and the Norse pantheon for example (which are the two I am most familiar with!)... This is something I'm planning to fix with my homebrew pantheon, because it seems to be more realistic for the gods to have closer ties to each other... But, what about the Faerunian pantheon?

[...]

Why is this? Page count? Editors wanting to steer clear of making them too much like real world pantheons? Or just simply the nature of the pantheon?



Zandilar, since you're asking about the Faerūnian pantheon in the context of working up your own, I highly recommend you track down Ed's original "Down-to-Earth Divinity" article from The [sic] Dragon #54, October 1981. It provides invaluable advice on pantheon-building and, as Gomez intimated, may answer your question about that "dearth" as well, given the origin of many of the Realms gods (their origin in the sense of their being literary characters, not their "in game" origins).

Cheers,


My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe

Canada
161 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  19:32:07  Show Profile  Visit Baleful Avatar's Homepage Send Baleful Avatar a Private Message
If I remember my university comparative religion studies correctly, having familial relationships in a pantheon is slightly more popular/frequent than having deadly opposed foes portrayed as having no blood connections to each other (not that you can't have bitter feuds within families, a la Loki versus most of the Norse pantheon).
Note that "slightly" - - meaning it's by no means essential to have family relationships within a pantheon. So Ed might well not see it as a "problem," if you catch my drift.
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  19:40:29  Show Profile  Visit Broken Helm's Homepage Send Broken Helm a Private Message
Dear Ed and THO,
Having just bought some boxes of frozen "appetizers" (hors d'oeuvres, party "finger foods," call them what you will) for Christmas, I'm moved to ask: are there mass-produced, buy-from-a-shop "finger foods" for revels, feasts, and celebrations? If so, what are they called and what are they? (I'm looking for what can be bought in human cities, not undersea or underground.)
Thanks!
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  21:08:12  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Heh. Broken Helm, I presume you mean the above question to apply in the Realms, yes? :}
BB
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2009 :  21:09:22  Show Profile  Visit Broken Helm's Homepage Send Broken Helm a Private Message
*facepalms* Yes. Thanks.
Brain, brain, I know I had one once . . .
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Sandstorm
Learned Scribe

Canada
80 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2009 :  17:09:57  Show Profile  Visit Sandstorm's Homepage  Click to see Sandstorm's MSN Messenger address Send Sandstorm a Private Message
THO, I have a question for Ed, or if you know the answer yourself, feel free to oblige. This one isn't about writing, I think I'm on a good track with that now and am writing somethign I think fit to submit to BAEN BOOKs. No this one is about my current campaign I'm DMing.

I'm running a campaign set in Athkatla. We have four characters: Tiefling Shadowblade working for the Temple of Shar, A Kenku Drugdealer/informant. (Kinda running a sort of Jarlaxle type character, but not to that extent) The Kenku doesn't fight etc...and is currently trying to gather 1000 pounds of flesh so that this gnome will create him a Flesh Golem. heh heh. How's he getting the flesh? He's recetnly contacted our third player who is running a Gnoll Graverobber. SO sick. The gnoll is however, secretly under the influence of a vampire living in the sewers of Athkatla. The fourth is workin for one of the merchant houses, and he is a drow spellchaser. His job is to apprehend anyone using arcane magic in the streets of Athkatla.

My question was for this drow. How do the mages in the city detect the use of arcane use?
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3073 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2009 :  18:38:18  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Sandstorm

THO, I have a question for Ed, or if you know the answer yourself, feel free to oblige. This one isn't about writing, I think I'm on a good track with that now and am writing somethign I think fit to submit to BAEN BOOKs. No this one is about my current campaign I'm DMing.

I'm running a campaign set in Athkatla. We have four characters: Tiefling Shadowblade working for the Temple of Shar, A Kenku Drugdealer/informant. (Kinda running a sort of Jarlaxle type character, but not to that extent) The Kenku doesn't fight etc...and is currently trying to gather 1000 pounds of flesh so that this gnome will create him a Flesh Golem. heh heh. How's he getting the flesh? He's recetnly contacted our third player who is running a Gnoll Graverobber. SO sick. The gnoll is however, secretly under the influence of a vampire living in the sewers of Athkatla. The fourth is workin for one of the merchant houses, and he is a drow spellchaser. His job is to apprehend anyone using arcane magic in the streets of Athkatla.

My question was for this drow. How do the mages in the city detect the use of arcane use?



Just on principal, I'm sending my adventuring group out to kill yours...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe

USA
489 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2009 :  20:40:30  Show Profile  Visit Joran Nobleheart's Homepage Send Joran Nobleheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Sandstorm

THO, I have a question for Ed, or if you know the answer yourself, feel free to oblige. This one isn't about writing, I think I'm on a good track with that now and am writing somethign I think fit to submit to BAEN BOOKs. No this one is about my current campaign I'm DMing.

I'm running a campaign set in Athkatla. We have four characters: Tiefling Shadowblade working for the Temple of Shar, A Kenku Drugdealer/informant. (Kinda running a sort of Jarlaxle type character, but not to that extent) The Kenku doesn't fight etc...and is currently trying to gather 1000 pounds of flesh so that this gnome will create him a Flesh Golem. heh heh. How's he getting the flesh? He's recetnly contacted our third player who is running a Gnoll Graverobber. SO sick. The gnoll is however, secretly under the influence of a vampire living in the sewers of Athkatla. The fourth is workin for one of the merchant houses, and he is a drow spellchaser. His job is to apprehend anyone using arcane magic in the streets of Athkatla.

My question was for this drow. How do the mages in the city detect the use of arcane use?



Just on principal, I'm sending my adventuring group out to kill yours...

Well said, Ashe!

I always kind of wondered if it was sort of like an analyze dweomer spell of some sort (that is far more powerful) that the mages had cast on them that could pick up tremors in the Weave, actually. It was how I tried to explain the situation to one of my players, at least. I hope I'm at least partially right!

Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart

Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 01 Dec 2009 20:41:39
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2009 :  23:22:25  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Zandilar, since you're asking about the Faerūnian pantheon in the context of working up your own, I highly recommend you track down Ed's original "Down-to-Earth Divinity" article from The [sic] Dragon #54, October 1981. It provides invaluable advice on pantheon-building and, as Gomez intimated, may answer your question about that "dearth" as well, given the origin of many of the Realms gods (their origin in the sense of their being literary characters, not their "in game" origins).



I should have that article floating around on a CD somewhere. Been a while since I've read it though, so I suppose I should go looking - I have a sneaking suspicion it's on Dragon Archives CD 1 (given the early number of the magazine), and that it has been missing since I moved. Will have to go and check. Thanks for the reminder though.

I actually do also have the World Builder's Guide which was released towards the end of the 2nd Edition era, which I think had some good information on pantheon building too. Time to dust that off too. Thing is, though, the pantheon is built - I just now need to work out the ties between each of them (considering this campaign has been running for over a year, it's way over due! ).

But I am still curious about the reasoning behind not having (many) clear familial (as in deities who are spouses, siblings, or off spring of other deities) ties between the non-immigrant deities in the Faerunian pantheon.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Sandstorm
Learned Scribe

Canada
80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2009 :  01:43:02  Show Profile  Visit Sandstorm's Homepage  Click to see Sandstorm's MSN Messenger address Send Sandstorm a Private Message
Well ya I would think it wuold have to be something like that, something that detects the weave, and not the actual spell caster itself.. because then simply donning cloaks of non-detection would make it easy. no scrying, no nothing. but the Cowled Wizards would usurp those somehow... because right now none of them are running magic users... but lets say one of them one day knows an NPC wizard, and simply asks for him to don a cloak of non detection... wha then??
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Sandstorm
Learned Scribe

Canada
80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2009 :  01:45:54  Show Profile  Visit Sandstorm's Homepage  Click to see Sandstorm's MSN Messenger address Send Sandstorm a Private Message
and as for AShe... you could take out the Kenku informant like nothing if ya get him before he gets his Flesh Golem, though he does have a host of spearman with him at all times... the Shadowblade of Shar, good luck finding him... the Drow Spellchaser... he's taken the Forsaker class, so he's got a 28 SR.. but otherwise killable... but then there's the Gnoll Graverobber... man... you dont want to face the Gnoll Graverobber. Especially since he's kind of ummm... a vampires 'pet'...
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2009 :  15:43:19  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Kajehase, Ed tells us:

Tenants have all three of those options open to them in Cormyr, and usually choose the third (but sometimes the second). This is the norm across the Realms, wherever tenant farmers exist.
In Amn, however, only coin is accepted by the landlord, so the farmers have to sell their crops or labour as dearly as they can, to get coin enough to pay (or be forced into a period of unpaid labour, in lieu).

So saith Ed. Who is busy busy busy with Realms writing, these last few days.
love to all,
THO


Thanks for the speedy reply Ed and THO

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2009 :  00:12:08  Show Profile  Visit Broken Helm's Homepage Send Broken Helm a Private Message
Re. Menelvagor's latest question: ARE the two Noumeas the same person?
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