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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 08:09:20
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I've currently been reading up a lot on the spellplague / spellscars and what not. But now I found something called 'spellfire' and I dont realy know what it is..*puts Shandril's Saga on his 'to read' list*.
Anyone that can help me clearefy it? All I can find on spellfire is that it is a power some people possess and that unlike normal arcane magic it gives people the possibility to absorb magic and cast healing spells..
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"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 15:54:49
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There's 2e rules and descriptive text for it in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical and Heroes Lorebook. For 3/3.5e in uh. Magic of Faerun I think it is and uh, I wanna say Champion of Valor has the expanded prestige class.
Also, check through Ed's replies which are linked in The Sage's sig. :) Do a search/find for spellfire. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 20:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
There's 2e rules and descriptive text for it in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical and Heroes Lorebook.
Which can be downloaded here.
Spellfire was introduced as a plot device for Ed's first Realms novel; it wasn't intended, and doesn't work well, as a rules-quantified ability or one for PCs. As the Hooded One posted in 2004:quote:
Ed couldnt see any realistic way, within the Realms as hed created and detailed it, to keep Shandril alive unless spellfire was so gosh-awesome powerful as to let an inexperienced idiot (which Shan basically starts as) blow away mighty foes, AND to be so important that good NPCs would show up to guide and aid her, as well as evil NPC power groups swoop in to grab spellfire. He couldnt otherwise see any realistic way to drag all the important Realms VIPs onstage that he was asked to feature in the book (this was, remember, the very first Realms novel written FOR the Realms, unlike the added in Moonshae novels by Mr. Niles), plus the places and people he wanted to squeeze in, AND provide young female readers with a character they could identify with
The rules interpretation appeared in FR7 in answer to readers' curiosity. Spellfire was later converted to 3E rules as part of that edition's philosophy of quantifying every ability and making it freely available to PCs, with Ed writing a sidebar for the FRCS rationalzing this distortion with respect to spellfire's evident extreme rarity in the novel.
In retrospect we can now easily see that the spellfire rules, along with the reader-demanded game writeup of Elminster in Dragon #110, were the start of a trend that caused great harm to the Realms. |
Edited by - Faraer on 29 Nov 2008 20:46:06 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 22:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
...it wasn't intended, and doesn't work well, as a rules-quantified ability or one for PCs.
-The rules, they are indeed quite funky, and don't fully match up with how it is portrayed in setting.
-I've seen it elsewhere, there is a homebrew template that, I find, works much better. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Nov 2008 22:17:26 |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 07:56:18
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| I've read the topics on spellfire in some of the books mentioned and it DID help. However I'm more interrested in what spellfire is then the rules around it. Is it realy just a gift from the gods? |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 09:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In retrospect we can now easily see that the spellfire rules, along with the reader-demanded game writeup of Elminster in Dragon #110, were the start of a trend that caused great harm to the Realms.
And what trend is that? (I have an idea, but I've been wrong before about perfectly obvious stuff so I'm asking just to make sure) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 18:03:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zapato
I've read the topics on spellfire in some of the books mentioned and it DID help. However I'm more interrested in what spellfire is then the rules around it. Is it realy just a gift from the gods?
-A gift? Depends on how you want to see it. A gift, maybe. A curse, maybe. Mortals getting access to it, it's totally random and unpredictable. Maybe the deities have more foreknowledge about it, but... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 18:39:14
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| Was there ever really a downside to having it though? Let's be honest for a second: it seems like the 'curse' of Spellfire (being that it attracts lots of badguys) is undone by its ability to fry everything in sight. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 30 Nov 2008 18:39:37 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 18:53:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Was there ever really a downside to having it though? Let's be honest for a second: it seems like the 'curse' of Spellfire (being that it attracts lots of badguys) is undone by its ability to fry everything in sight.
-As Peter Parker knows all too well, with great power comes great responsibility. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 19:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In retrospect we can now easily see that the spellfire rules, along with the reader-demanded game writeup of Elminster in Dragon #110, were the start of a trend that caused great harm to the Realms.
And what trend is that? (I have an idea, but I've been wrong before about perfectly obvious stuff so I'm asking just to make sure)
Quantifying powerful stuff, especially that which was never intended for players. Having to have rules for everything means you're wasting space on something of limited use, making some players see the acquisition of such powers as a goal (not that it's not a worthy goal, but a player shouldn't want it simply to be more of a tank), and making other players see it as a target (ooh, he's level 26? Well, my 19th level assassin/17th level cleric/28th level Ubertank can take him!). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 19:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Was there ever really a downside to having it though? Let's be honest for a second: it seems like the 'curse' of Spellfire (being that it attracts lots of badguys) is undone by its ability to fry everything in sight.
It's a little difficult to accomplish anything when you're busy having to fight off yet another wave of bad guys...
And let's not forget what sneaky, sublte bad guys can do. Your PC fighter has spellfire, and fries several legions of mages. Finally, after months of this, they leave him alone. But not until after he rescues a beautiful merchant's daughter, who falls in love with him... The fighter falls for her, too. The complication? Maybe she's under mind control from someone who wants the spellfire. Maybe she's a polymorphed nastybad that wants it for herself (or himself, if you really want to screw with the PC). Maybe she's a distraction, so that the fighter could be attacked while his guard (and maybe his trousers, too) is down. Maybe there's nothing going on with her at all -- but then she could be used as a hostage and/or a human shield. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 20:13:04
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Oh, I'm not saying that having 'the weapon' is a walk in the park...but neither was carrying the One Ring, toting around the baby Alora Dannon or even being the One (course, then you get the monopoly on cool sunglasses). It's a standard in fantasy literature (the 'normal' person suddenly given incredible power)...but it seems like Shandril just wanders around, scared out of her wits for herself and those she cares about (rightfully so), then just nukes the baddies back to the stoneage, fries their bones into glass.
Now - when as an author or DM you use personal issues as conflict for an 'overpowered' PC, I'm all for it. Like you say Wooly, level 20s fall in love, get cheated on and have to pay food bills just like everybody else ('feast' spells notwithstanding), and all kinds of issues that no amount of Spellfire will protect them from.
But in the case of Shandril, I stopped reading Greenwood because she and Elminster were always just a nuclear blast away from solving their problems. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 21:13:32
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
And what trend is that? (I have an idea, but I've been wrong before about perfectly obvious stuff so I'm asking just to make sure)
The Realms as conceived and published in Dragon and early sourcebooks was made so that players couldn't predict or rely on the capabilities of their foes, the workings of their granted magic, the reliability of magic items or gates. It used the rules in a subsidiary role to the roleplaying; Ed published one piece about how players don't need to know the rules at all.
Giving full stats for rare abilities and NPCs led it to be expected, a situation where NPCs and the setting as a whole were perceived more rigidly than intended, the Realms got a backwards reputation for being about powerful characters (stats being more quickly digested than context and nuance), limited publishing space was given up to non-content . . . right through to the current D&D culture, where, at its worst, setting information without rules is 'fluff', explicit player rules 'options' are the norm and rules-deviation is seen as 'DM fiat', campaign settings are secondary to rulesets and twisted to fit them rather than the sensible way round, and Realms sourcebooks aren't being published any more.quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
But in the case of Shandril, I stopped reading Greenwood because she and Elminster were always just a nuclear blast away from solving their problems. :)
No, from getting to live one more day. I don't see how one could read the books and get the idea that her spellfire solved any of Shandril and Narm's problems at all. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 10:46:54
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One thing that made me want to give the villains in the Shandril story a stern talking to was their obsession with gaining spellfire. If I was an evil mage conspiring in the realms I would consider three facts and decide to stay the hell away from Shandril.
1. Defeating her. If you want to gain her spellfire you have to beat her first, and remember, this is a girl who blasts dracoliches out of the sky with one blow.
2. Controlling her. Congratulations, you have captured her. Now what? Taking the spellfire from her or making her serve you is akin to wrestling an australian crocodile (the biggest in the world) in the middle of the river.
3. Everyone and their mother's dog are going to come after you. So, now you've gained spellfire for yourself. Well, hooray for you because the Chosen, Szass Tam, Manshoon and Larloch just showed up outside your door. Now everyone who was after Shandril will be after YOU.
Seriously, if I was a Zhent or a Red Wizard, I would have poured myself a cup of coffee and sat laughing at the scrying orb, watching all my rivals get blasted to bits by the girl. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - khorne on 01 Dec 2008 10:47:26 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 14:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Was there ever really a downside to having it though? Let's be honest for a second: it seems like the 'curse' of Spellfire (being that it attracts lots of badguys) is undone by its ability to fry everything in sight.
If you haven't read Shandril's Saga yet, you may want to check it out, and note Shandril's mental state in the final book. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 16:52:35
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I say meh, check yourself into a mental ward while you're getting healthy, and when, oh say, a dracolich, or a small ARMY of beholders show up...zap zap zap. :)
EDIT: Having not read a Greenwood for a few years I thought I'd randomly plug Shandril into wiki and see what came up. I found this sentence by someone named BlackZen: "Shandril simply wants to live a quiet life with her family and friends. She desires no conquests, no deaths, and no more power than the spellfire she already wields."
Well, I thought. That's good. No more power than that. Just Spellfire.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 01 Dec 2008 16:59:03 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 00:18:07
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| *shrug* I've actually read all the books, and I think your assertions about Shandril are quite faulty. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 02:03:10
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| Yeah, me too. Working my way through all of Shandril's Saga didn't do much to assuage the feeling that Spellfire is just way too much...'Superman'-type characters don't do anything for me, I guess. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 15:20:13
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| Shandril isn't Superman, though. She's a scared, vunerable girl who comes to find that her powers (which she finds are beyond her control) can hurt the people she cares about. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Dec 2008 15:20:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 16:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I say meh, check yourself into a mental ward while you're getting healthy, and when, oh say, a dracolich, or a small ARMY of beholders show up...zap zap zap. :)
EDIT: Having not read a Greenwood for a few years I thought I'd randomly plug Shandril into wiki and see what came up. I found this sentence by someone named BlackZen: "Shandril simply wants to live a quiet life with her family and friends. She desires no conquests, no deaths, and no more power than the spellfire she already wields."
Well, I thought. That's good. No more power than that. Just Spellfire.
What's so funny about that? She's got spellfire, and it's a part of her. It's certainly more problem for her than it's worth...
Not wanting anything more than she already has doesn't seem like anything worth commenting on, to me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 19:01:02
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Though I want to read those novels even more, now that I've read all your reactions.. Is there anyone who knows the awnser to my question  ?
So back on track: What Is spellfire exactly? Is it really just a simple gift from the gods? Or is there a bit more lore to that? And yes I've read the DnD information books mentioned but it only explains how to use it in campaigns etc.
Thing is I'm pretty sure I heard some story about the original Mystra having a hand in this, though I'm not quite sure if that's true.. |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
Edited by - Zapato on 02 Dec 2008 19:11:03 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 19:59:27
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"Briefly defined, spellfire is the ability to use one's body to absorb life energy from diverse sources on the Prime Material Plane and later to release that energy either as uncontrolled bolts of silvery fire that can penetrate most defenses and wreak awesome damage or in a variety of ways controlled by silent act of will."
Its exact nature, in terms of its relation to the silver fire and the Art in general and Mystra and the other gods, is a Mystery, exactly the kind of thing Realmslore purposely leaves to sagely disputes and the ravages of knowledge-hungry mages, to be explored in play rather than known for sure in advance. But you can look through Ed's answers for possibilities and hints. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Dec 2008 20:00:58 |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 21:02:50
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| Thanks for clearing that up, sounds like nice possibilities for DM's te play with then *pokes his DM* |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2008 : 06:33:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Now - when as an author or DM you use personal issues as conflict for an 'overpowered' PC, I'm all for it. Like you say Wooly, level 20s fall in love, get cheated on and have to pay food bills just like everybody else ('feast' spells notwithstanding), and all kinds of issues that no amount of Spellfire will protect them from.
But in the case of Shandril, I stopped reading Greenwood because she and Elminster were always just a nuclear blast away from solving their problems. :)
Well in the case of Shandril that ended differently from most stories, but you are right in that she - same as Elminster and Drizzt - got a bit boring after the second / third novel.
I also have to agree with Wooly and Faraer that Spellfire is something that should not be given stats for. These things (Spellfire, Elminster and other high powered people, the Windwalker, the Ring of Winter, ...) only work out in a novel but become unstylish when they are comparable to / attainable by PCs. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Spellfire?
