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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:05:57
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Hello fellow scribes
I have A LOT of questions this morning. All of them regarding outsiders. I will post them as different posts to make it easier to edit if I need to do so
Outsiders... That is a confusing type of monster (well, to me at least). According to the MM, an outsider is at least partially composed of the essence of his plane other than the material plane. It’s also noted that some being may attain the outsider status when they attain a higher or lower state of spiritual existence. It’s soul and body forms one unit, except native outsiders.
So, demon are outsiders: (chaotic, evil), devil: (lawful, evil), elemental of fire (fire). No problem, I get it.
1st question: Monks. When they reach “perfect self” they become an outsider, a magical creature. They are no longer affected by charm person and the like. Since the material plane “produces” no outsider, of which plane is the monk outsider of? By outsider, isn’t it like, somewhere else? I don’t get it.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:06:57
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2nd question: When a demon is killed on the material plane, he’s sent back to the abyss, if he’s killed in the abyss, he’s destroyed forever*. WHY? I understand that their body and soul are one, but what is the link between where they die, and the result from it? If I was an outsider, I would try to leave my home plane forever
*A wish or Revive outsider from Spell compendium can resurrect an outsider.
3rd question: Native outsiders, what the hell does that mean? An Asimaar is descending from good outsiders, tiefling from evil outsiders. Why don’t they share the same attachment then? How can you be part outsider when it’s definition is having a part of the plane’s essence? You have part of it, or you don’t, no?
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Edited by - Kilvan on 24 Nov 2008 16:47:14 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:07:45
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4th question: In the dark elf trilogy, when Ertuu (sp?) is killed by Drizzt, there is something about him being locked in the abyss for a hundred years, unless he is summoned by the one who killed him. Is it true for any type of outsiders or is it some curse reserved to demons (or tanar’ri)?
5th question: Can you freely travel in and out of the lower (or upper) planes? In Elminster in Hell, the Simbul and Halaster do it without difficulty. I thought you were “locked” once you traveled there, unless you found a portal.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:08:30
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6th question: In neverwinter nights: hordes of the underdark, it is revealed that Mephistopheles used you to switch position as Lord of Cania to a citizen of the material plane. That raises many questions, why was he unable to travel to the material plane considering his tremendous power? Is it true for any citizen of hell?
7th question: Following my sixth question, why would he want to throw his position as the 8th lord of hell anyway? Wouldn’t he be instantly slain by the combined major forces of Faerun if he wrecked too much havoc (if not by the gods themselves)? I also suppose that without the souls of Cania to fuel his powers, he must be greatly weakened up there.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:09:22
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8th question: Githyanki and Githzerai, they are humanoid (extraplanar). What the hell is that? In what do they differ from outsiders? Does charm person works? In expanded psionics handbook, they are now regular humanoid. If it's only because they were regular humanoid who established in limbo/astral plane and that they have no attachment to their plane, then explain why Shades are outsiders. They are native from the material plane and established to the plane of shadow, and they became outsiders.
Ok, that’s enough for today, I know I could go on, trust me. That’ll be for another day. I normally wouldn’t ask so many questions, but now I know you guys are so good at it  . If you don't mind me asking more questions, tell me, I have more.
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Edited by - Kilvan on 24 Nov 2008 16:44:35 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:46:46
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Monks ... read as: they become some sort of higher being, perfected or elevated self ... which cannot be described as solely human any longer. In game terms - and only game terms - they are considered outsiders for some effects. It is, on the whole, not that much. I would still assume that they remain normal human*s (with an edge) and thus e.g. would normally reproduce as humans.
*Or whatever race takes the class.
2nd ... demons: The Fiendish Codex I explains a lot on that. I'd say when summoned (not gated!) their essence remains in the Abyss. If they walk as whole beings though, within the Abyss or after being Gate'd in, they are utterly destroyed much like undead are. It is better explained in the book. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 24 Nov 2008 14:54:43 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:50:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
1st question: Monks. When they reach “perfect self” they become an outsider, a magical creature. They are no longer affected by charm person and the like. Since the material plane “produces” no outsider, of which plane is the monk outsider of? By outsider, isn’t it like, somewhere else? I don’t get it.
When they become an outsider, it means they are so beyond their original race, they are no longer affected by spells that would affect that race. They are the 'perfect' form of their alignment and are considered outsiders with their 'home' plane being the plane the native plane they are from (so, if you try to banish a monk, he doesn't go anywhere, just as if you try to banish a devil in his home plane). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
2nd question: When a demon is killed on the material plane, he’s sent back to the abyss, if he’s killed in the abyss, he’s destroyed forever*. WHY? I understand that their body and soul are one, but what is the link between where they die, and the result from it? If I was an outsider, I would try to leave my home plane forever
*A wish or Revive outsider from Spell compendium can resurrect an outsider.
3rd question: Native outsiders, what the hell does that mean? An Asimaar is descending from good outsiders, tiefling from evil outsiders. Why don’t they share the same attachment then? How can you be part outsider when it’s definition of having a part of the plane’s essence? You have part of it, or you don’t, no?
Demons (and devils and everything else) that is on the Material plane effectively are 'traveling' here and still keep a tie to their home plane, kind of like how the lich has a phylactery. Think of it as an 'escape clause'. This is WHY they are always trying to leave their home plane, they know they really can't die in the Material Plane and they can do a lot of things here that will help them gain power.
Native outsiders (as I mentioned in the Monk answer) are so 'different' from the normal in the Material plane that they aren't affected as normal creatures of that plane. But they are native to that plane because that is where they are born (figuratively in the case of the classes and literally in the case of Aasimar and Tieflings), thus meaning they can't be banished unless they travel outside the Material plane. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
4th question: In the dark elf trilogy, when Ertuu (sp?) is killed by Drizzt, there is something about him being locked in the abyss for a hundred years, unless he is summoned by the one who killed him. Is it true for any type of outsiders or is it some curse reserved to demons (or tanar’ri)?
5th question: Can you freely travel in and out of the lower (or upper) planes? In Elminster in Hell, the Simbul and Halaster do it without difficulty. I thought you were “locked” once you traveled there, unless you found a portal.
Both are creative licenses. I always saw Ertuu's imprisonment as a curse placed on him personally as a side effect of the spell used to summon him to the Material Plane.
In regards to Elminster in Hell, Simbul and Halaster are very high-level magic users and they had help from Mystra. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 24 Nov 2008 15:00:15 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
6th question: In neverwinter nights: hordes of the underdark, it is revealed that Mephistopheles used you to switch position as Lord of Cania to a citizen of the material plane. That raises many questions, why was he unable to travel to the material plane considering his tremendous power? Is it true for any citizen of hell?
7th question: Following my sixth question, why would he want to throw his position as the 8th lord of hell anyway? Wouldn’t he be instantly slain by the combined major forces of Faerun if he wrecked too much havoc (if not by the gods themselves)? I also suppose that without the souls of Cania to fuel his powers, he must be greatly weakened up there.
I never played NWN, so I can't answer based on the story. He may have had a curse placed on him similar to Ertuu or he might just not trust his lieutenants enough to be gone for a long time without a backup plan.
As for his reasons? He'd still have all his outsider powers, but would be able to be banished from the Material plane, making him that more powerful. *shrug* Like I said, I'm not sure what NWN was about, so I can only guess at his reasons. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
8th qustion: Githyanki and Githzerai, they are humanoid (extraplanar). What the hell is that? In what do they differ from outsiders? Does charm person works? In expanded psionics handbook, they are now regular humanoid. If it's only because they they were regular humanoid who established in limbo/astral plane and that they have no attachment to their plane, then explain why Shades are outsiders. They are native from the material plane and established to the plane of shadow, and they became outsiders.
Ok, that’s enough for today, I know I could go on, trust me. That’ll be for another day. I normally wouldn’t ask so many questions, but now I know you guys are so good at it . If you don't mind me asking more questions, tell me, I have more.
They are humanoid, so they can be affected by spells like Charm Person and such, but being extraplanar, they can also be affected by things that effect extraplanar creatures. Shades are outsiders because they change what they effectively are, whereas Githyanki and Githzerai are humanoids that evolved on the Astral Plane.
Hope these helped. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 24 Nov 2008 15:10:09 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
4th question: In the dark elf trilogy, when Ertuu (sp?) is killed by Drizzt, there is something about him being locked in the abyss for a hundred years, unless he is summoned by the one who killed him. Is it true for any type of outsiders or is it some curse reserved to demons (or tanar’ri)?
5th question: Can you freely travel in and out of the lower (or upper) planes? In Elminster in Hell, the Simbul and Halaster do it without difficulty. I thought you were “locked” once you traveled there, unless you found a portal.
Creatures from the lower planes usually dont have the power to travel to the prime material planes when they want to (else Faerun might look a lot different), they usually need to be summoned. Errtu was linked to the crystal shard, so he had boot in the door to the Realms. Before he got killed he could be summoned by anyone, but after getting killed he probably lost the power to answer these summons for some time (100 years) with the exception of the owner of the shard / his killer probably because they were probably linked by the door.
Theoretically it should be possible for characters who know the Gate spell to exit lower planes whenever they want to. This doesnt make great stories however, so DMs generally are better off probably in adding this rule of needing a permanent gate to get out. Gods and rulers of planes probably shut down planar travel in their realms (to prevent adventurers "Gate-crashing" them ...), but not every square inch in the lower planes belongs to a gods realm. In the spots between realms it might be possible to escape with traveling spells. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
When they become an outsider, it means they are so beyond their original race, they are no longer affected by spells that would affect that race. They are the 'perfect' form of their alignment and are considered outsiders with their 'home' plane being the plane the native plane they are from (so, if you try to banish a monk, he doesn't go anywhere, just as if you try to banish a devil in his home plane).
But to be an outsider, you must have part of the essence of your home plane in you OTHER than the material plane. It is not the case of monks, or shades, or any planetouched. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Demons (and devils and everything else) that is on the Material plane effectively are 'traveling' here and still keep a tie to their home plane, kind of like how the lich has a phylactery. Think of it as an 'escape clause'. This is WHY they are always trying to leave their home plane, they know they really can't die in the Material Plane and they can do a lot of things here that will help them gain power.
Ah, that makes sense. I love your comparaison with a lich's phylactery. Thank you.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In regards to Elminster in Hell, Simbul and Halaster are very high-level magic users and they had help from Mystra.
Then if I want to plane shift freely in hell, what do I need? Is there a point where your "caster level" is stronger than the plane itself or is it some kind of epic spell? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
When they become an outsider, it means they are so beyond their original race, they are no longer affected by spells that would affect that race. They are the 'perfect' form of their alignment and are considered outsiders with their 'home' plane being the plane the native plane they are from (so, if you try to banish a monk, he doesn't go anywhere, just as if you try to banish a devil in his home plane).
But to be an outsider, you must have part of the essence of your home plane in you OTHER than the material plane. It is not the case of monks, or shades, or any planetouched.
Hence the 'Native' moniker. Basically, it's just a game rule to show that they are no longer humanoid (or whatever their base type was), thus no longer affected by those spells/effects, yet they cannot be banished. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In regards to Elminster in Hell, Simbul and Halaster are very high-level magic users and they had help from Mystra.
Then if I want to plane shift freely in hell, what do I need? Is there a point where your "caster level" is stronger than the plane itself or is it some kind of epic spell?
Well, considering that El's level 35 (CR 39 with Chosen template, Caster level is around 29) and he need the help of his goddess and some high-level allies to escape hell, I'd say you REALLY need high-powered mojo. Demigod or above level. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
When they become an outsider, it means they are so beyond their original race, they are no longer affected by spells that would affect that race. They are the 'perfect' form of their alignment and are considered outsiders with their 'home' plane being the plane the native plane they are from (so, if you try to banish a monk, he doesn't go anywhere, just as if you try to banish a devil in his home plane).
But to be an outsider, you must have part of the essence of your home plane in you OTHER than the material plane. It is not the case of monks, or shades, or any planetouched.
Hence the 'Native' moniker. Basically, it's just a game rule to show that they are no longer humanoid (or whatever their base type was), thus no longer affected by those spells/effects, yet they cannot be banished.
I agree with you all the way. But in that case, then the term "outsider" is ill-chosen IMO, for he may be above regular humanoid, he is not bound to any planes. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I agree with you all the way. But in that case, then the term "outsider" is ill-chosen IMO, for he may be above regular humanoid, he is not bound to any planes.
Not so! He is bound to the Material Plane. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Many questions about outsiders
