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 Dale-Reckoning Timeline of Buiyrandyn
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2902 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  03:23:25  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
-So I began the entry on Buiyrandyn, and it's not the relative lack of information that is driving me crazy, but the relative lack of a timeframe. This website (http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/droworigins.html) contains a timeline that places Qilue's assault on the Pit of Ghaunadaur in 767 DR. Problem is, none of the sources I am investigating can support this claim. The only sources on Buiyrandyn, Demihuman Deities and Dragon 176 don't contain supporting information, and both the print and .PDF AGHotR leave out said information. Demihuman Deities simply states, concerning this event, "Centuries ago...". It is because of this, and the lack of citations on said website, that lead me to be hesitant of assigning this event said date. It is of note that, having scanned it, and checked other events against my own chronologies, other dates are indeed correct.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:13:46  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say it has to be after 767, since she was born in that year, according to Seven Sisters, but I'd say it's not to long after that because Seven Sisters says Qilue, and her play mates, with Eilistraee's help, were led from that place when Qilue was still a child.

Maybe you want to ask Steven since he wrote up a lot of Qilue's info. But I would probably say it wasn't much longer then 5 to 10 years after she was born, depending on what "A child" means in the Qilue's entry in Seven Sisters.

Edit: DD's entry for Ghaudie only says it was "several years" after Qilue was born, which, again is listed as 767. So, again, it CAN'T be done in 767!

Edit 2: Skullport sourcebook says it happened several centuries, so again, it doesn't give a specific darn date!

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 18 Nov 2008 04:39:53
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:29:11  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Mmm, I completely forgot to check The Seven Sisters. That is, I intended to, but got sidetracked, and asked before consulting it. Luckily, I can save face, as no direct dates are mentioned there, either. I asked Steve, so...We'll see, we'll see...

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:31:43  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't forget that, in elven standards, child may be 50 or 60 years old. Drizzt coming leaving Menzo. in his late 60s/early 70s seems to be akin to a human running away from home at 13 or 14.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Kuje
Great Reader

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7915 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:33:37  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're right, I was thinking in human terms. Sorry. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Don't forget that, in elven standards, child may be 50 or 60 years old. Drizzt coming leaving Menzo. in his late 60s/early 70s seems to be akin to a human running away from home at 13 or 14.


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:41:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But thats beeen retconned and now all demihumans age at the same rate as humans until they reach adulthood (to alleviate the problem with having 50-year-old children).

Since that is a retcon, and not a 'new condition' brought about by the Spellplague, it should be applied.

To be on the safe side you could say she was about 15 or 16, which would be a child either way (old child for a human, very young child for an Elf). Plus Drow only live about as long as Dwarves, not other Elves, so the age ratio should only be about double or so.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Nov 2008 04:42:34
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Kuje
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  04:54:19  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. lame but okay. However, my problem with that is that most of this info was written in 2e, so ya'd have to kinda use the 2e drow age tables. :) I know what you're saying, I just don't agree with it cause the material we are looking at, originally, had different age tables.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But thats beeen retconned and now all demihumans age at the same rate as humans until they reach adulthood (to alleviate the problem with having 50-year-old children).

Since that is a retcon, and not a 'new condition' brought about by the Spellplague, it should be applied.

To be on the safe side you could say she was about 15 or 16, which would be a child either way (old child for a human, very young child for an Elf). Plus Drow only live about as long as Dwarves, not other Elves, so the age ratio should only be about double or so.


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Lord Karsus
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2902 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  05:05:51  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Since that is a retcon, and not a 'new condition' brought about by the Spellplague, it should be applied.


-Older lore is not written with such things in mind. As such, it would have to toe the line that 2e set, and not that that 3e or 4e information set. So, in other words, when the 2e product calls her "a child", you'd look on the theoretical 2e chart that defines what is and what isn't "a child", and not on the 1e chart, 3e chart, or 4e chart.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 18 Nov 2008 05:07:48
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  05:06:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I agree, and with most stuff I just follow the older lore, but in this case it just a little strange because they are using the "it was always that way" explanation (which is no explanation).

Thats why I offered the 15-16 thing as a compromise - either way you can say she was 'just a kid'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  05:44:27  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But thats beeen retconned and now all demihumans age at the same rate as humans until they reach adulthood (to alleviate the problem with having 50-year-old children).

I've never thought that elves or other long-lived races aged differently. Physically a twenty-year-old elf looks the same as a twenty-year-old human, but the emotional age of the elf is much more immature.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  09:27:57  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it is a bit of guesswork, but the designers could lend a helping hand (whether they want to give this unofficial info is another matter, of course). Anyway, as has been said, it must have been way after her birth (I'd say 100 years?) and according to Skullport long before 1355, since that was the day when construction of The Promenade begun. For The Pit of Ghanaudaur was, going by the same source, destroyed several centuries ago. This is, AFAIK, just info copied from said Dragon and DD. No source about the drow give a exact date, though I'd have to read LP III again, as it does feature the Pit quite heavily.
(Skullport, page 16f)

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!

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Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.

Edited by - Zanan on 18 Nov 2008 09:29:15
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Brimstone
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USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  12:58:52  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But thats beeen retconned and now all demihumans age at the same rate as humans until they reach adulthood (to alleviate the problem with having 50-year-old children).

-Markus you are a 44 year old kid! Thats almost 50!

-Yeah it looks like you got a problem here.


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 18 Nov 2008 13:01:36
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Lord Karsus
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2902 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2008 :  15:51:57  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

No source about the drow give a exact date, though I'd have to read LP III again, as it does feature the Pit quite heavily.


-It doesn't mention any exact dates, either. Mind you, I just skimmed it, but I didn't run across anything to the effect of the author establishing a definitive date.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1632 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2008 :  19:35:17  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To correct Kuje only slightly, I never wrote that much about Qilue. Other than my input and work on the Promenade article with Ed and mentioning that it might be neat to make that seventh sister drow, the dark Sister was all Ed and his genius.

That said, I've got an opinion for you here.

quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

-Sage Schend, I've got it on good information that you'd be able to hook me up, here. To make a long story short, (which you can read in this thread, http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11872), I'm trying to piece together some events that don't have officially published dates concerning Buiyrandyn, but, more specifically, the date in which Qilue assaulted the Pit of Ghaunadaur. Kuje mentioned that you penned a lot of the Qilue section, so if anyone would be able to shed some illumination on the issue, it'd be you.



Without doing more hard research on this topic, I'm going on the discussion from that other thread (and I'll post this there too).

I can't give you an absolute, definitive answer on this (i.e. "It was a Tuesday. Rained that day. The dog caught a mole in the yard."), or rather I won't. Simple reason--it's too easy to trip up and set a date and then have to walk it back for one reason or other (as George Krashos and Eric Boyd will tell you, having cleaned up my manuscripts before).

That said, I think the span between 837 and 1055 DR is a very good benchmark for when this happened; if you need an absolutely solid date, just set it at 837 (when Qilue is a fresh 60 year old drow, long before she builds the Promenade) and it still matches with other references.

Now, as for the "demihumans age at the same rate" issue, it's a non-starter as far as my opinion goes. You can state that "this is how it is now" and claim that "it's always been like this;" that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily. Thus, within the game, yes, demihumans age the same rate. However, as a matter of story and narrative and lore, there's differences that won't affect your game at all (such as when an elf reaches puberty or whatnot) that can be left alone.

That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things.

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2008 :  20:11:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, after thinking about it, I realized I was being an idiot there - if the dating of something in older sources pertains to someone's apparent age, then the older lore MUST be used to date the particular event.

I hadn't gotten that point the first time Kuje addressed it, so I'd liked to apologize for the rather stupid mathematical error on my part.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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USA
2902 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2008 :  20:22:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Thank you, sir. Much appreciated.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 19 Nov 2008 20:22:39
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