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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2008 : 03:45:17
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However you want to spell this, and there are more than the title above...what do you guys think Mithril could be in the real world?
I was reading up on metals a bit ago and ran across this pretty thing:
Molybdenum: "...used in high strength alloys...sixth highest melting point of any known element...in its pure metal form is silvery white, with a Mohs hardness of 5.5..."
If not this one...does anyone have a suggestion?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2008 : 10:06:11
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| The DMG (AD&D to 3E) et al speaks of Mithral. Tolkien et al speaks of Mithril (methinks). |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2008 : 13:58:52
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Actually, older books (ie: Dwarves Deep) spell the metal mithril. It is essentially a direct, intentional port from Tolkien, like halflings and to some extent the Balor, but unlike Aglarond, which was a placeholder Ed forgot to take out in the first publishing of the Realms. It's sort of a "super steel," lighter, harder, prettier, and MUCH rarer, without a real-world counterpart.
I'm not really sure when TSR changed the spelling from "mithril" to "mithral" or what the specific circumstances were, though obviously their intention was to avoid some sort of intellectual property infringement. Probably why "mithril" got changed but "halfling" didn't. We could probably ask Ed about it.
"Mythral" is a spelling I've never seen and I assume it's just a typo with the author meaning "mithral." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2008 : 15:29:10
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Hmmm...guess I didn't make myself clear enough.
I was simply talking about what possible real world metal would be equal to mithril...sorry if I wasn't clear.
I read Tolkien every year; from beginning to end (from The Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings Trilogy and Unfinished Tales...and everything else too!). Tolkien and R.E. Howard (with a dash of other authors like Robert Jordans time as a Conan writer) have given me most of my inspiration for writing and creating...with a heavy dose of Real World Fantasy/Epic thrown in the mix.
So really, while I know what it is and where it came from in writing; I was simply trying to talk about what real world metals might be the equal of this fantasy metal. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 01 Nov 2008 15:30:43 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2008 : 20:34:11
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| Ah. Well, in that case, I cede the floor to those who know more metalurgy than I do (which would be just about anyone who knows anything about metalurgy). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 05:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
does anyone have a suggestion?
The only problem with molybdenum is that it is atomic weight 96 versus iron's 55 which makes it almost twice as heavy as iron. The advantage of mithril was that it was so lightweight.
I have two suggestions for a real-world equivalent of mithril: aluminum or titanium. Or possibly even some alloy containing both.
Aluminum has an atomic weight of 26 which is less than half the weight of iron, but it is not quite as strong as steel. Certain alloys of aluminum mixed with zinc can achieve strengths approaching steel but nearly two-thirds lighter than steel. If the primary characteristic of mithril is its light weight then aluminum may be the best candidate.
Alternatively titanium has the strength needed. At atomic weight 48 it is slightly lighter than iron. A quick perusal of wikipedia says that "Commercial (99.2% pure) grades of titanium have ultimate tensile strength of about 63,000 Pound per square inch (434 MPa), equal to that of some steel alloys, but are 45% lighter. Titanium is 60% heavier than aluminium, but more than twice as strong"
A little more googling reveals that the most common type of titanium used commercially is a titanium alloy that is mixed with 6% aluminum and 4% vanadium by weight. That might be the closest real-world version of mithril right there.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 06:26:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
does anyone have a suggestion?
The only problem with molybdenum is that it is atomic weight 96 versus iron's 55 which makes it almost twice as heavy as iron. The advantage of mithril was that it was so lightweight.
I have two suggestions for a real-world equivalent of mithril: aluminum or titanium. Or possibly even some alloy containing both.
Aluminum has an atomic weight of 26 which is less than half the weight of iron, but it is not quite as strong as steel. Certain alloys of aluminum mixed with zinc can achieve strengths approaching steel but nearly two-thirds lighter than steel. If the primary characteristic of mithril is its light weight then aluminum may be the best candidate.
Alternatively titanium has the strength needed. At atomic weight 48 it is slightly lighter than iron. A quick perusal of wikipedia says that "Commercial (99.2% pure) grades of titanium have ultimate tensile strength of about 63,000 Pound per square inch (434 MPa), equal to that of some steel alloys, but are 45% lighter. Titanium is 60% heavier than aluminium, but more than twice as strong"
A little more googling reveals that the most common type of titanium used commercially is a titanium alloy that is mixed with 6% aluminum and 4% vanadium by weight. That might be the closest real-world version of mithril right there.
Thanks Gray...that may indeed be a goodly world equal to Mithril. Now, I wonder what it would cost to get a suit of that stuff...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 14:42:19
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| In the last decade, titanium has been surprisingly cheap and competitive against steel, mainly due to the opening of Russia's markets (they own most of earth's supply in titanium, and moreover, they have been scrapping warships and submarines made of the stuff, so around 2001 and 2002, the stuff was dirt cheap so to speak... not exactly sure if it's still true) |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 15:06:03
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Stable Scandium would be a very good candidate.
Looks like Silver, has the properties of Titanium for a similar atomic weight and about 60% of the density.
But Scandium is also incredibly incredibly rare. It's produced by the gramme rather than the ton! Scandium-Aluminium compounds are pretty high performance too. Though, cause its so rare, we're still not 100% sure it's non-toxic. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 02 Nov 2008 15:12:13 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 15:15:40
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Nice call on Scandium, it indeed would get my vote for "closest to Mithril".
Molybdenum is just too darn heavy to be useful other than for maybe a treasure chest (Strong, hard to break, and hard as hell to steal!) |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 17:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
Nice call on Scandium, it indeed would get my vote for "closest to Mithril".
It doesnt seem to have the mechanical properties expected of Mithril; it is "too leftish" in the periodic table. The metals in the first and second column only have very very exotic applications and are used mostly for their chemical and not their mechanical properties. Mithril needs to be "smithable" and most of the exotic metals simply arent, because they are too soft, too brittle or do other funky stuff when exposed to oxygen.
In any case an alloy usually has better mechanical properties compared to a pure metal, so a Titanum alloy would get my vote for "RL Mithril equivalent". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 17:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
Nice call on Scandium, it indeed would get my vote for "closest to Mithril".
It doesnt seem to have the mechanical properties expected of Mithril; it is "too leftish" in the periodic table. The metals in the first and second column only have very very exotic applications and are used mostly for their chemical and not their mechanical properties. Mithril needs to be "smithable" and most of the exotic metals simply arent, because they are too soft, too brittle or do other funky stuff when exposed to oxygen.
In any case an alloy usually has better mechanical properties compared to a pure metal, so a Titanum alloy would get my vote for "RL Mithril equivalent".
But we know mithril is a mined metal, so it can't be an alloy either. Straight titanium would get my vote, since it has the highest strength to weight ratio of any metal. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 17:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
But we know mithril is a mined metal, so it can't be an alloy either. Straight titanium would get my vote, since it has the highest strength to weight ratio of any metal.
Why cant an alloy be mined? We know from history that the alloys in some comets were a boon for some and in any case I dont think there is any metal that is "mined" in its pure form (as shown in the LotR movie when they go through the mines of Moria). All metals are more or less found in "oxidized form" (Titanium is no exception there) as part of a mineral and need to be processed before they can be used as metals.
One of the points of Mithril and Adamantium is that they are rare. This is another point in favor of them being an alloy, especially an alloy you cant create in a "low tech environment" which a fantasy world is. Magic might help, but why bother? To create more armor / weapons for fighters to threaten mages? Nah. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 02 Nov 2008 17:38:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 04:17:07
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I've always thought of Titanium as well.
But what about Adamantium? Would Molybdenum work for that?
I think the color would be off (thats fixable,right?), but isn't Adamantium supposed to be very heavy?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2008 04:17:32 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 22:10:47
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| I think it's fairly well established that both mithril and adamantine are metals, not alloys. However, the purpose of this discussion, I think, is to come up with the closest real-world approximation of mithril's observed properties. Therefore, I think that alloys should be allowed. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 09:01:33
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Not so! Adamantine is an alloy to be certain, there is a great deal on the subject in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical:
"Adamant: This is the pure metal form of the hard, jet-black
ferromagnetic ore known as adamantite, from which the famous
alloy adamantine is made. Adamant is rarely found in nature, but
when it is, it is always be in large spherical pockets in hardened
volcanic flows.
Adamant is one of the hardest substances known on Toril, but
it is also brittle. A sword made of adamant could slice through
most metals#151; but would snap off if struck by another blade or
even a smartly wielded wooden cudgel."
"Adamantine: This alloy, of five-eighths adamant to two-eighths
silver and one-eighth electrum (itself a natural alloy of silver and
gold) retains the hardness of adamant, but combines it with a
rugged durability that makes adamantine so hard to shatter that it
is the favored substance for the making of war hammer heads, the
best nonmithral armor, and harbor chains. (By one of the miracles
granted by the gods, adamantine can also be derived by combining
steel and mithral#151; if one knows how.) Adamantine is
black, but has a clear green sheen in candlelight #151;a sheen that
sharpens to purple-white under the light given off by most magical
radiances and by will-o#146;-wisps."
"Mithral: Known as truemetal to the dwarves, this silvery-blue,
shining metal is derived from soft, glittering, silvery-black ore
found in rare veins and pockets all over Faerūn #151;from the depths
of the Underdark to surface rocks, particularly in the easternmost
Sword Coast North lands. Mithral can be combined with steel
(varying alloys of iron and carbon) to derive adamantine if one has
no access to adamantite ore, but this process is both difficult and
known only to a very few dwarves, who do not perform it for
nondwarves unless there is a very good reason.
Mithral is the lightest and most supple of metals hard enough
to be used in the making of armor; it is extremely valuable."
You might want to read the rest in Volo's guide to glean any further clues. Adamantine turns out to be an alloy of adamant mixed with silver and gold. Adamant is the pure metal derived from raw adamantite ore. We don't know for sure if mithral is a pure metal or a naturally occuring alloy. Adamantine alloy, however, can also be made by combining mithral with carbon steel in an arcane process. ( a process that Elminster describes as "almost as arcane as that necessary for making a philosopher#146;s stone and requires a smith, a mage, a priest, and an alchemist#151; - at least - #151;to
complete."
I assume there is some alchemical transformation that creates a fundamental change at the atomic level because I don't see how mithral (whether an alloy or pure metal in its own right) can combine with steel (carbon and iron) to produce an alloy containing adamant, silver and gold. Which leads me to believe that chemistry (or alchemy) works very much differently in the Realms than it does in our own world. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 14:18:08
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| Hmmm... taking all that Gray and Pandora have to offer into account, maybe Scandium would be the equivalent to Adamant? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 23:50:01
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| Good point on adamantine. I was thinking of adamant, which is the pure metal of the two. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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What is Mithril/Mithral/Mythral?
), I'll point out that it's among the free downloads on 
