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storrs19
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 13:25:34
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What is the reasoning for replacing so much of the artowrk whenever WOTC reprints so many of the FR (and for that matter the DL) novels? IMHO the original artwork is much more colorful and appealing to the eye. Maybe it is because I am used to the artwork that I saw when the books came out so long ago, but the new artwork just looks so drab and colorless. Anyone else feel the same way? I was just doing some comparisons on the o-love.net website between the original (which is what I have as I bought my books when they first came out) and the new artwork for many which have been reprinted.
Chad
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Fantasy Reader for 25 years and counting! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 13:59:57
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| I look at it more on a case by case basis, but in most cases, I prefer the newer artwork (most of the ones for the Legend of Drizzt come to mind, especially the ones from Legacy of the Drow, hate the original artwork). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:37:23
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It's likely cheaper to go with new artwork, rather than pay the royalties on the existing stuff.
I've not liked the majority of the artwork, the last several years. Some of it I've thought was just plain horrible. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by storrs19
Maybe it is because I am used to the artwork that I saw when the books came out so long ago, but the new artwork just looks so drab and colorless. Anyone else feel the same way?
Sometimes, yes--the new artwork does seem drab, colorless, and/or overly stylized. That said, some of the older artwork definitely looks...well, dated. I'm not surprised that WotC would change its style over the years, and sometimes the results are actually quite nice. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 17:38:34
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| I think it's standard practice throughout publishing to slap a new cover on a new edition of a book. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 17:49:24
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| True, Richard. But in the olden days, the changes weren't as profound, usually just a change in the color or reformat of the image. Nowadays, with all the digital stuff, it seems the preference is entirely new artwork every print cycle. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 02:48:37
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I thought the stuff since 3.0 began was a massive improvement over Advanced D&D. Gone was the photoshop-via-painting in of people who worked at TSR and calling it a book cover. Drizzt was no longer pink and wrinkly. Characters actually looked like their descriptions and NOBODY had poofy 80's hair.
That said...I already miss Todd Lockwood's influence on the Realms - it was more realistic. Although 4.0 copy/pastes a lot of images from 3.0 (poor poor Leevoth...), the newer images just look cartoony and unrealistic...like...oh, I dunno, let's say Warcraft.
(again...*sits...waits for thrown fruit...*) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 25 Oct 2008 02:51:41 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 21:35:30
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| -By and large, most of the newer covers are vastly superior to the older covers, which certainly show their age. Most newer covers are more interpretive, whereas most older covers were scenes. As such, I greatly appreciate the newer ones to the older ones. A specific scene in a story does not the entire story tell. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 Oct 2008 21:36:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 22:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-By and large, most of the newer covers are vastly superior to the older covers, which certainly show their age. Most newer covers are more interpretive, whereas most older covers were scenes. As such, I greatly appreciate the newer ones to the older ones. A specific scene in a story does not the entire story tell.
I don't like having to interpret a cover. I like to know at a glance what it is I'm looking at. That has not been the case for me with a number of newer covers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 23:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like having to interpret a cover. I like to know at a glance what it is I'm looking at. That has not been the case for me with a number of newer covers.
-I wholly disagree. As I said, no one scene in a book can explain the substance that the book is made of. To me, the cover of a book should encapsulate the broader...outlook of the book, the broader goal, the broader sense that the book conveys. Not just a single specific scene, person, place, whatever. A single person/place/scene/whatever does not get across the essence of the entire work.
-Let me just grab the closest 'old' book I have here...Finder's Bane, decent example. The cover has Finder Wyvernspur and Joel looking at the Hand of Bane while (presumably) the Banelich lurks in the background. The novel is much more than these characters or things, however. It has Sigil. It has Saurials. It has other things not included on the cover. It has a bunch of other things that are not included on the cover.
-In lieu of what is on the over, were I to update it, I'd simply have the cover be a illuminated Hand of Bane on a black/dark background, and leave it at that. The major plot line within the book is the Hand of Bane. It is the central idea that everything else is tied to. Thus, I would highlight it, and nothing else.
-To put it in mathematical terms, I want a cover that can, either directly or via esoterica, translate into the LCD, the lowest common denominator, of the book. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 Oct 2008 23:33:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 00:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like having to interpret a cover. I like to know at a glance what it is I'm looking at. That has not been the case for me with a number of newer covers.
-I wholly disagree. As I said, no one scene in a book can explain the substance that the book is made of. To me, the cover of a book should encapsulate the broader...outlook of the book, the broader goal, the broader sense that the book conveys. Not just a single specific scene, person, place, whatever. A single person/place/scene/whatever does not get across the essence of the entire work.
Well, my thing is, a lot of the newer covers are just a single specific scene or person -- and looking at the cover, I often find I have no idea what it is I'm looking at. Not that I don't know what's going on (though I don't), it's that I don't know what it is I'm seeing. If something is so stylized and/or lacking in detail that reading the book still leaves me wondering about the cover art, then there's an issue there.
I like looking at a cover, seeing some scene, and being intrigued by the scene. I don't like looking at a cover and wondering what the guy on the cover is.
I guess we will disagree, but I like a cover to be at least a hint of what's in the book, and I don't think a lot of the recent covers have accomplished that. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 01:37:50
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The first Realms book I ever read was Homeland, which I read the majority of in the 7th grade waiting for my football game to start (ah the good ol days... ).
One of my favorite memories was realizing that the drow on the cover was not this Zaknafien character I thought was so cool, but this new guy Drizzt and wondering what it meant that he was climbing over the wall. Once I finished the book I realized what it was eluding to, and it made it much more enjoyable.
As such, I feel that a cover that gives the reader the overall feel of the text throughout the book and yet eludes to a specific core scene in the novel is the best way to go (the Harry Potter series with the American covers was notorious for this). |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 02:02:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess we will disagree, but I like a cover to be at least a hint of what's in the book, and I don't think a lot of the recent covers have accomplished that.
-That's what the summary on the back cover is for.  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 04:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess we will disagree, but I like a cover to be at least a hint of what's in the book, and I don't think a lot of the recent covers have accomplished that.
-That's what the summary on the back cover is for.
Granted -- but if the front cover doesn't get my attention, I won't look at the back cover. I'm a BattleTech fan solely because the Daishi on the cover of Way of the Clans caught my eye in the store one day. Had it not been for that one cover, it's likely I never would have dumped a lot of money on BT sourcebooks (twice!), a lot on BT novels (gods, I've got so many of those to replace yet), and many hours of time playing the game would have been spent in some other (likely frivolous) manner.
That's why I feel that cover art must grab you and get your attention. Wo obviously feel differently, but for me, a lot of the newer covers don't get my attention beyond making me raise an eyebrow and wonder what it is I'm looking at -- and that reaction almost guarantess I won't pick up the book to look at the back cover. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 12:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That said, some of the older artwork definitely looks...well, dated.
'Dated', as ever, is more a comment about the observer than the observed, about fashion rather than art. Much of the current art is so self-consciously 'hip and edgy' that it'll soon look quite as dated (if you want to look at it that way) as the Caldwell/Easley/Elmore generation.
I don't think much of the colour Realms art there's been at any point represents the Realms very well. I doubt many of the artists have tried to do that.quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
The major plot line within the book is the Hand of Bane. It is the central idea that everything else is tied to. Thus, I would highlight it, and nothing else.
I think one of the main failings of Realms fiction thus far has been not to properly embrace the massive decentralized interrelated complexity of the world, so I think to embody monoptic focus and simplicity on covers would be to go quite the wrong direction, in most cases. |
Edited by - Faraer on 26 Oct 2008 12:09:24 |
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storrs19
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 13:48:19
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| I guess it just boils down to a matter of preference. I really don't look for a cover to explain what the book is about. I just like good artwork. That being said, I have nothing against the modern covers, its just that I prefer the older ones. I guess it is because I grew up with them and am used to seeing that style of art. |
Fantasy Reader for 25 years and counting! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 14:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by storrs19
I guess it just boils down to a matter of preference. I really don't look for a cover to explain what the book is about. I just like good artwork. That being said, I have nothing against the modern covers, its just that I prefer the older ones. I guess it is because I grew up with them and am used to seeing that style of art.
I'm not looking for an explanation on the cover, but I do want a reasonable idea of something that happens in the book. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 03:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think one of the main failings of Realms fiction thus far has been not to properly embrace the massive decentralized interrelated complexity of the world, so I think to embody monoptic focus and simplicity on covers would be to go quite the wrong direction, in most cases.
-In a cover that depicts a specific scene, you run into the same 'problem' that you highlight here. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 15:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
'Dated', as ever, is more a comment about the observer than the observed, about fashion rather than art. Much of the current art is so self-consciously 'hip and edgy' that it'll soon look quite as dated (if you want to look at it that way) as the Caldwell/Easley/Elmore generation.
True enough, although I think there's middle ground between characters having poofy 80's hair (like Midnight on the old avatar trilogy covers--is there hairspray in the Realms?) and characters being so stylized that they look like monsters (ie. the covers of the Fighters series).
My favorite Realms art probably would be the old black and white pictures from the Volo's Guides--old, but not dated, at least not to me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Oct 2008 15:53:04 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 17:01:30
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I definately think you can call things dated - although it mustn't necessarily be a bad thing. For instance, the cover of the Beatles album Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is clearly an artefact of the sixties but it still looks great. The "80's hairstyle" on a lot of the women on the covers of early Realms-novels on the other hand are just as obviously from a certain decade (something one would hope fantasy-artists would try to avoid, in m opinion), but as someone who became a teenager in 1992 and thus had the good fortune of never having to consider Europe (the band, not the continent) or Iron Maiden cool: it's an infinitely worse "dating."
That said - if I have to choose between an Elmore/Easley/Caldwell cover complete with big-haired woman on it or one of the new covers for the Sembia-series (the old Sembia-covers are my favourites of all Realms-series) or one of the covers of the Fighters-series, I'd definately go for the old school stylings.
(The covers for Richard Lee Byers's latest series are coming close to the old Sembia series in me liking them, though. They're very stylised, sure. But stylised in a good way. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 23:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I definately think you can call things dated - although it mustn't necessarily be a bad thing. For instance, the cover of the Beatles album Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is clearly an artefact of the sixties but it still looks great.
Well of course--they're the Beatles. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 00:05:57
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Hoping for art to ever be wholly out-of-its-time or sui generis is pretty pointless. On the other hand, with bad art there's so little left when you subtract its influences and current cultural norms that it tends to be forgotten once pushing those generic buttons falls out of popularity.
Is it hairspray, or just curly? I dare say in 20 years' time people will say 'Are there hair straighteners in the Realms?' (I'm sure there are concoctions and spells that do both, and fashions for both, in Faerūn.)
Yeah, Dameron and Valusek are the only artists whose Realms work consistently looks Realms to me. And Ed G, as glimpsed fascinatingly in The Annotated Elminster, and the Baron's Blades modules. |
Edited by - Faraer on 28 Oct 2008 00:08:41 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 03:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
...is there hairspray in the Realms?
-There'd be a magical way to emulate it's effects, sure. When you have vain Elven women like Queen Amlauril, there'd have to be. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 Oct 2008 03:38:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 05:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
...is there hairspray in the Realms?
-There'd be a magical way to emulate it's effects, sure. When you have vain Elven women like Queen Amlauril, there'd have to be.
Well, there's Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye... It was originally a flip answer on the WotC forums, responding to why some artwork of Alustriel showed her with brown hair.
Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye
Okay, I'll admit it: it's me. I've been selling Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye in the Realms for many years now. Ten gold for a bottle, ten doses to a bottle. A single dose of Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye will cover the head of a medium-sized humanoid, and can be applied in minutes, but lasts for one full month (thirty days). During that time, the wearer can mentally control the color and style of their hair, changing either by act of will, once a day. The style and color choice will remain until the wearer decides to change either, or until the dose wears off.
A side effect is that all body hair (eyebrows, etc) is affected by Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye, even though it's usually only applied to the head.
Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye is currently available in larger cities of the Realms, and from any outlet of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog.
Disclaimer: Wooly Rupert is not a Thayvian, and his products are not in anyway connected to that nation or its people.
Wooly Rupert's Wondrous Hair Dye: Prerequisite: Brew Potion, Disguise self. Minimum Caster Level 5
*Notation: I just came up with the concept. I don't recall who added the notes on the in-game creation of the potion, but that creator is of course fully credited with adding the crunch! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 13:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Is it hairspray, or just curly?
What gives a girl
Power and punch?
Is it charm?
Is it poise?
No it's hairspray!
I agree that Ed's illustrations were quite good. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Oct 2008 13:51:28 |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 14:21:11
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I like the new stuff for the most part. Cover art is important for me. The first Realms book I ever wanted to buy was The Thousand Orcs simply because I loved the cover. I'd never heard of the realms before then and didn't read much fantasy, but that cover just pulled me in for some reason. It took me nearly 7 years to finally start reading the realms, but my interest was captured right there. I love Lockwood's stuff. I also love Swanland's art (especially in the Sembia series) although it's incredibly stylized. It just grabs my attention and make's me want to see what's inside. Not all the "newer" stuff is all that great though. For example, I almonst don't want to read The Return of the Archwizards just cause I hate the covers so much. I'd take the original Moonshae or Finder's Stone artwork over that any day.
That being said, I also want the artwork to depict an actual scene from the book. For some reason I just enjoy finding that place in the book where the story matches the cover. Imagine my surprise then when I realized that the scene on the front of The Thousand Orcs (my whole reason for getting into the realms in the first place) never actually happened in the book. I was actually left a little disappointed in the book simply because of that little fact.
So, give me something that grabs my eye and also gives me an actualy scene from the book and I'm happy. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 20:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Is it hairspray, or just curly?
What gives a girl
Power and punch?
Is it charm?
Is it poise?
No it's hairspray!
What gets a gal
Asked out to lunch? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 22:57:36
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Heehee. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 22:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
That being said, I also want the artwork to depict an actual scene from the book. For some reason I just enjoy finding that place in the book where the story matches the cover.
Me too. I distinctly recall that the cover of the novel Stormlight actually does match an actual scene from the book, and that novel is not at all new. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 00:52:48
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| I like both. The retro 80's style artwork has a sort of nostalgic (sp?) feel to it. As for the new artwork, Lockwood is amazing. I can't say it any other way . |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 07:58:45
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| Todd Lockwood is older than the late Keith Parkinson, only a few years younger than Jeff Easley, and TSR first published his art (1980) before Parkinson, Easley or Caldwell . . . |
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Topic |
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Original Artwork vs. New Artwork
