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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2017 :  19:59:58  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds more like an ogre to me...or some half-giant maybe
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2017 :  20:13:14  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giant half breeds with multiple arms are not unknown in the moonsea region.

Large orcs are probably a remnant of the noble blood of vastar which occupied the vast and the moonsea. There was a recent ed article about the orcs of vastar and the black dragons iyrauroths involvement.

Just my thoughts of course.

As for breeding with other humanoids, i doubt they were willing and from the sounds of it they probably didnt survive, and i doubt the orc cared either way

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2017 :  03:12:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, and that part could get 'icky' if we dwell on it too much (and I AM picturing children/descendants running around somewhere - attack of the 50' gnome, anyone?)

But this MONSTER could brow-beat a Hill Giant no problem. Ogres are tiny compared to him. He's broader than most humans are tall!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2017 03:13:00
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2017 :  03:55:45  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have noted his presence in the region I like to dabble in, but didn't put him in the timeline - he would definitely make an appearance in an "Impiltur" sourcebook though.

I like the idea of there being better, stronger strains of orcs, and would point at dragon breeding programmes as the basis for such a state of affairs. As an aside, in MY Realms, hobgoblins were developed by dragon breeding programmes related to goblins and then went their own way when they turned against their masters (a throwaway Ed reference in one of his novels to hobgoblins gaining strength and abilities by eating dragon eggs backs this up IMO).

As for the "icky" part, maybe he's not well proportioned!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2017 :  17:46:14  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is such a fun debating FR lore with you George so I would like to thank you here for all you have done (and will do) for the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2017 :  10:43:01  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

It is such a fun debating FR lore with you George so I would like to thank you here for all you have done (and will do) for the Realms.



You are very welcome and no thanks needed. I enjoy the FR discourse and everyone's comments and questions always prompt some good Realms brainstorming.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2017 :  22:16:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I have noted his presence in the region I like to dabble in, but didn't put him in the timeline - he would definitely make an appearance in an "Impiltur" sourcebook though.

I like the idea of there being better, stronger strains of orcs, and would point at dragon breeding programmes as the basis for such a state of affairs. As an aside, in MY Realms, hobgoblins were developed by dragon breeding programmes related to goblins and then went their own way when they turned against their masters (a throwaway Ed reference in one of his novels to hobgoblins gaining strength and abilities by eating dragon eggs backs this up IMO).

As for the "icky" part, maybe he's not well proportioned!

-- George Krashos

Was that in an Ed novel? I thought I remembered something along those lines connected to the Realmspace product, perhaps having to do with El's 'Watchtower' (his space safe-space).

I always pictured Hobgoblins being an orc/goblin hybrid, in much the same way as when you breed two very different sub-species of a genus you get a larger, stronger (and maybe smarter) creature. At this point, they'd just be their own race now.

As for that last part, I guess people who made fun of his less-than-impressive 'endowments' didn't live very long.


On a serious note, his existence in FR's past gives us a great excuse (not that we need one) to create a 'bigger, badder' Vastian breed of Orc (his bloodline). We could probably just use ogre stats and give them better Int. And now I'm picturing a pair of brothers from a Naruto episode I was watching last night.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2017 22:19:44
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2017 :  08:51:49  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was that in an Ed novel? I thought I remembered something along those lines connected to the Realmspace product, perhaps having to do with El's 'Watchtower' (his space safe-space).



Elminster's Daughter hardcover p.313.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  12:15:23  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me hobgoblins are also mix of orc and goblin. In czech "hop" means "jump" so hobgoblin is almost like saying jump-on-goblin and I think it is funny refference to how they were created(lets say that hob is orcish word... .-))
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  15:31:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was that in an Ed novel? I thought I remembered something along those lines connected to the Realmspace product, perhaps having to do with El's 'Watchtower' (his space safe-space).



Elminster's Daughter hardcover p.313.

-- George Krashos

It was the Lizardmen of Colier I was thinking of (which IS the same planet The Watchtower{hideout} is on) - they like to send their eggs close to sun to empower them, and then further on it mentions that the dragons of Coliar get along with the lizardmen and also try to get some of their eggs on the ships as well.

Hmmmm... 'scalykind' (dragons!) being able to bathe their eggs in the sun's energy to make their offspring stronger? Seems like another puzzle piece just fell into place.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  18:36:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uthgardt, Rengarth, and Angardt - not much on them in the GHotR. Do you have some sort of flowchart/history for the barbarian tribes of The North? Their interrelationship? (I know the Angardt broke from the Rengarth, but I forget how the Uthgardt and Rengarth are related - I thought the Rengarth were post-Netheril only, but now I see I was wrong.)

We also have the Ice Hunters (Iulutiuns?), and the Reghedmen (a 'pure' group of savage Illuskans/Northmen?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  18:47:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could answer but im sure George's will be much more interesting with the possibility of a few lore nuggets he has hidden until now.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6098 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  23:26:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
on the 14 foot tall Orc.... we have duergar which are dwarves that can change to "giant" size... we have spriggans that are gnomes that can grow to giant size (and were a netherese experiment)... what if this guy is the same thing (some sub-race of orc that can grow to giant size... hell, maybe he can reduce as well and there's now some really ugly fairies too). That might very much explain the ability to mate with all kinds of races.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  23:41:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just found a 12' dwarf in FR canon.

I'm pretty sure that's NOT a dwarf anymore. I have to wonder if Glorundoun knew his mom.

Anyhow, i just realized I probably could have checked his history of the North, instead of checking the GHotR, which is probably much more detailed on the matter. but as you said, I am sure his answer will be more fun.

I actually just wrote a little 'thing' concerning the fallen dwarven kingdom of Haunghdannar. I know Krash said he ha planned to work on that awhile back, but got sidetracked. Although its specifically written with the Nentir Vale conversion in mind (the lore wove into each other splendidly), some of it may be salvageable as 'pure' FR lore (the stuff about Leilon and Ieirithymbul having been former sites of that kingdom). I'll be posting that in the Nentir Vale History thread shortly.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  08:47:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well as George appears to be busy here is my answer (with a bit of my own fluff).

So the Rengarth and Angarth are Ulou people.

When the Ulou people began their migration west from KaraTur along the edge of the far northern mountain ranges and glaciers they left a lot of people in various people along the way.

Rengar led his people south when they reached the High Ice.
They skirted the north shore of the Narrow Sea until they found a more suitable climate on the western edge of the narrow sea. They avoided the southern half of the basin because it was filled with ruins of the sarrukh empire (the northern half had been scoured clean when the narrow sea was diverted).

The Angardt were a tribe of the Rengarth people that were educated in the ways of magic by the Netherese and cast out from the Rengarth lands by the more conservative Rengarth tribes.

The Angardt fled south to the lands once occupied by Thaeravel and became the Angarth people (dt means blood of, th means people of). However netherese never understood the distinction and history has them as the Angardt people (saying Angardt in the presence of a Rengarth tribesman was a sure way to cause an argument).

The Rengarth and Angarth suffered greatly towards the end of Netheril. Most of the more moderate tribes had integrated into Netheril, leaving only the diehard conservative tribes that refused to abandon their traditional ways of life.
Those tribes dwindled in the face of the desert and monsters.

When Netheril finally fell the Rengarth fled west along with a number of survivors from runlatha.

Hundreds of years later Uthgar Gardolfsson (although im sure ive read a source where his first name was not Uthgar, maybe Uthar or Uthmaer. Id prefer it not to be Uthgar) was driven out of newly conquered Illusk and east where he encountered the tribes of Rengarth/netherese survivors.
Uthgar conquered them one by one and subdued all the animal totems they revered. He was also very prolific and sired hundreds of children (by the time of his death it was an honour to look after the bastard child of Uthgar).
The people renamed themselves the Uthgardt after the traditional Rengarth fashion (although they had forgotten the true naming conventions as they should have been Uthgarth).

And that is the history of those people

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  04:20:01  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well as George appears to be busy here is my answer (with a bit of my own fluff).

So the Rengarth and Angarth are Ulou people.



He has been busy indeed.

Why do they have to be Ulou and travel vast distances to stop in a place that is no different from their homeland? Why can't they just be indigenous to the area?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  04:48:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well as George appears to be busy here is my answer (with a bit of my own fluff).

So the Rengarth and Angarth are Ulou people.



He has been busy indeed.

Why do they have to be Ulou and travel vast distances to stop in a place that is no different from their homeland? Why can't they just be indigenous to the area?

-- George Krashos

Thats was my thought as well.

A LONG time ago I had connected the eastern and western people in cromagnum-like group called 'the Cortai people' (like 'the Clovis people' RW), and this group split, with half staying in the west (Faerūn) and the other group traveling east, into Kara-Tur. Some of this was based on stuff in Brian James' original GHotR, but he referred to them as 'Pozi' (the group that split). I called the two groups the Issa-Cortae (Issacortae IS a canon native group to northern K-T), and the Illu-Cortae.

later, however, I learned that the Illuskans/Northmen were NOT indigenous to The North, so I dropped that line of reasoning, and I think BJ did much the same with his stuff in the GHotR, when the canon version came out. That Cortai/Pozi group would have been forerunners to many of our early groups in canon (like the Talfir, and Tethyrians). At some point I grew very fond of a new theory - that a lot of the early peoles in Faerūn were part of a 'lost group abducted by the Imaskari I dubbed the 'Dathtes' (because I REALLY hate that an ethnic group has the same name as a national group - "Chondathans from Chessenta" just sounds wrong to me). so this interloper Dathites took the place of those 'cave men' in my early musings, but serve the same purpose - to have one group from which all others sprang.

I no longer think any of that matters as much as I used to. Too many interlopers over the years, from other worlds and other continents, to really boil-down exact proto-groups.

At the end of the day, just apply Occam's Razor. If they are in an area, and you have nothing actually connecting them to anything else, why over-complicate matters? Thats where they're from. I think the other barbarians that the Uthgart absorbed were of many different backgrounds, probably even a bit of Turami. There have been mass exodus' over the years of people fleeing one disaster or another from every corner of Toril.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2017 04:54:22
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  07:01:48  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ill have to check my sources for the answer but im sure i read that the rengarth arrived in the area (therefore cant be indigenous). They have similar physical characteristics to othe Ulou. And possibly in Tom Costas language article there was Ulou involved somewhere. And lastly i think the Ice Hunter tribes were Ulou as well so that group already travelled across the world to get to someplace similar so leaving a few groups behind along the way seems normal.

Ill see what i can find

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  21:07:22  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have it now. It was Tom Costa's article on languages in dragon annual 1999.

It placed Rengardt as a Low Ulutim language in the Ulou family.

Netherese was also in the Ulou family.

Ice Hunter also spoke Uluik which was in the Ulou family.


It made sense to me that given the Rengarth had much in common physically with the Ice Hunters and other Ulou speakers (black hair brown eyes swarty stature) and much in common socially (barbarian people with animal totem worship and a lack of reliance on magic) that they be related.

The Ulou people travelled west in several waves I think. In so doing the Ulou language was spread across the north of Faerun. Rengarth were just one group.

The Netherese I think was in the Ulou language because of the mingling of the netherese people with the Rengarth to create the Low Netherese that made up the bulk of Netheril (people mingling over 3000 years is more than enough time for this to occur - it happened in England in a few centuries).


I could be wrong but all the pieces pointed towards the Rengarth being Ulou and therefore migrants so I went with it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  23:44:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As much as I love that article, it has a few problems, especially in regards to the fact that newer lore came out (in 3e) that messed some of that up. Still, he did an insanely good job for what he had to work with (offhand mentions of languages in a hundred+ sources).

Even Greyhawk, as 'bare bones' as it was, handled languages better (they even had one of those nifty historic maps that showed migrations of early peoples - something we've always lacked).

My 'fix' by way of fixiness (thats officially a word now):
Take the article as something written by a Candlekeep sage (Yes, I know, nothing original about that take at all). But the devil's in the details - Rengardt IS related to Ulou, as is Netherese, but NOT because those groups are 'Eastern' (our Asian), but because all those groups hail from the same region originally. Netherese and Rengarth are already connected by blood - they're all Gur, that came from the Gur/Kalmyk/Suren Lands (similar to our RW northern slavic/Cossack groups).

Now, the entry in the GHotR about where the Uliutians (which I agree are closely related to the Ice hunters) came from is based on this bit from pg.93 of bk.I of the K-T box -
quote:
After battling a bakemono horde at the Hill of Namaskar, Queen Triala of the Tayamulchi decided that her homeland was no longer safe. Guided by a divinely-inspired vision, or so she claimed, her people would leave in search of a new land. It would be a rich land where the reindeer would thrive, where the streams are almost choked with salmon, where the winters are mild and in summer the forest overflows with nourishment.
The clans elected to follow her vision; it provided more hope than what was promised by the wolfish tribes that surrounded them in the Ama Basin. Therefore they journeyed north, vengefully razing some
humanoid territory on the way, into the Land of Snow Demons.


The Issacortae do not appear 'as Asian' (walking on eggs here...) as other K-T peoples, and that - and the fact that their tribal organizations sound far more Eurpoean/Celtic - is one of the big things that made me even try connecting the east and west. The Issacortae are native to the Ama basin, which happens to fall out right alongside the Gur lands, and both fall within the ancient boundaries of the Kalmyk empire (BTW, there's tons more history about that empire and its leaders in Horselords, which come to Yamun Khahan in dreams). So, both the predecessors of the Uliutians(sp?) and the predecessors of the Netherese/Rengarth came from the same general area.

So can they understand each other? Maybe a tiny bit. About as close as South American Spanish dialects and French (which are both rooted in Latin, AGES ago). So connected, but through so many different groups and displacements they'd barely be recognizable to each other.

Now, we might go a bit further and theorize that that proto-laguage was closely associated with Imaskari, but in my own HB musings, I have it where it is closer to Anoguel, the language of the Anoque, an interloper-group that came to the lands of Imaskar during their height, and controlled the eastern portion of the empire (which later fragmented). Anoque had red hair - ranging from brownish to strawberry blond, were very tall (taller then the Imaskari, and WAY taller than the indigenous eastern Haltai peoples - what we call 'Shou' today, but modern Shou are actually a mix of sevral Kara-Turran ethnicities), have very large, 'almond' eyes, much like and elf's, and had a very different type of magic than the Imaskari (more nature/spirit based - Anoque are actually a group of spirit folk, but intermixed for so many generations that they are their own distinct group by the time they arrive on Toril).

I created that group to explain-away a BUNCH of stuff (think of them as a rug I was able to sweep stuff under). Most of the K-T aristocracy are very tall - unlike the peasants - and tend toward reddish hair in several provinces (that parts canon - if you trace the hair coloring across the provinces as I did, it moves from the Imaskar border directly toward the capital, 'lessening' in intensity as it travels east, indicating a slow admixture of native bloodlines over time, as Anok-Imaskar became Shou-Lung). It also helps with the differences in magical traditions we see in several Imaskar survivor-states. K-T canon does say that the shou came 'from elsewhere', following a celestial dragon to a 'new world', so my 'fudgery' allows us to take into account for that as well, and still leave us several indigenous K-T groups that already existed in the east, before the arrival of the Shou (which simply translates as 'followers').

So, ummm... yeah. That was longer than i meant it to be. But if there is any one, single proto-language for this conundrum you mention, its that it came from these interlopers originally (Imaskar DID rule over all those lands and peoples at one time or another).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2017 23:52:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14401 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  23:51:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And bear in mind that the northern portion of Toril - from 'The North' through the Moonsea region, Bloodstone Lands, The wastes, and on into the Ama Basin - is MUCH closer than it actually appears on a flat map. We are talking about a language that was just popular around 'the top of the world' a few thousand years ago. Look up 'Arctic Ethnic groups' and you'll read how they're all interrelated RW, and apply that to Toril's past - just like that (Thule people, who were proto-Eskimos).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  14:20:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cant say i ever had a problem with tom costad article. Where it differs from other lore i found it could be easily accounted for by the passage of time.
Langauges change a lot in 1000 years.

Netherese are different enough for me to be from a different racial stock. What that stock is i dont really mind. They use the draconic alphabet so i go with the idea that they were brought to the anauroch basin by a dragon (which they served for a time).

The different alphabet, different lifestyles (netherese were fishermen while rengarth were hunter gatherers), and the differing attitudes and aptitudes to magic led me to the conclusion that they arent of the same people.

I dont see a need to connect the two. What lore we have of the netherese is all after the netherese and rengarth mixed so there is no real way of knowing where the netherese came from so i dont see a need to dwell on it.

But all the evidence we have about rengarth points to Ulou origin. And as ice hunter also appear to be Ulou then it looks like that group of people migrated from the far north east to the far north west. I dont know why but im going to say it was to escape something nasty that may have followed them to the great glacier at least.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  21:49:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms of the Dragon short story anthologies point to a huge, undetailed part of FR history relating to the Time of Dragons where great wyrms ruled Realms and subjugated local humans and elves (and likely all other races as well - save where they saw them only as food). Both metallic and chromatic dragons did this and I've always thought that the Netherese and their innate talent for the Art was as a result of being descended from just such a situation.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3552 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  23:06:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im heading that way as well and the hints in The Ride area look like a good place to have the netherese serving such dragons (im sure ive read about a human civilisation there probably in the citadel of the raven) before heading into the Anauroch Basin.

Its the simplest way to explain the draconic alphabet

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
463 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  16:41:55  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So my language article was hopefully as accurate as it could have been when it got published (including referencing Eric Boyd's notes on migration patterns), but you all are right that subsequent lore messed a bit with what I had done. Sean Reynolds thought my article was too detailed for a fantasy world, so he simplified it quite a bit for 3E. In many respects, I totally agree with him, at least from a gaming perspective. Then 4E messed with a bit more and now in 5E, some bits have resurfaced. I think its a bit weird, but I haven't had the wherewithal to go back and try to suss it all out.
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