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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  03:18:13  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Do you know if Cormyrean naval vessels render passing honours to vessels of any other nations? If so, to whom? Or, if passing honours are standard, to whom are they denied? Pirates, obviously, even if they were to fly a standard of some pirate 'republic'/'kingdom' or other, but is there anyone else?
There are relatively very few (a little over two dozen) genuine warships of Cormyr in the 1370s, and these tend to afford passing honors only peaceful ships of allied or neutral powers (Impiltur, Sembia before Netheril struck, Aglarond, and a few others). War ships do not get passing honors from Cormyrean ships, because those ships are relegated to the Lake of Dragons, where ships of other nations are not welcome unless there for trade.

Ships manned by Freesailors are far more common east of the Neck, and these ships afford honors based on their captains' attitudes, with the exception that ships of Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia (the patrons of the Freesailors) all get passing honors.

quote:
In other words, is there any nation or city state which comes into contact with Cormyr, but is considered illegitimate by the authorities? Such as, perhaps, Zhentarim vessels or vessels from Westgate or Starmantle.
Zhentil Keep and Westgate aren't considered "legitimate," but passing honors aren't as developed in the Realms as they are in real-world naval history. Thay, for instance, doesn't get passing honors, though Cormyr and other nations recognize their rule.

Essentially, allies get passing honors, neutrals and enemies don't. Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1229 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  04:13:00  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

There are relatively very few (a little over two dozen) genuine warships of Cormyr in the 1370s, and these tend to afford passing honors only peaceful ships of allied or neutral powers (Impiltur, Sembia before Netheril struck, Aglarond, and a few others). War ships do not get passing honors from Cormyrean ships, because those ships are relegated to the Lake of Dragons, where ships of other nations are not welcome unless there for trade.

Ships manned by Freesailors are far more common east of the Neck, and these ships afford honors based on their captains' attitudes, with the exception that ships of Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia (the patrons of the Freesailors) all get passing honors.

Very good. A few related questions.

What are the odds that the Vast cities, being cultularly and geographically related to these nations, could apply to and receive a similar membership in the Freesails? In other words, that Raven's Bluff (at least, and perhaps Procampur and Tsurlagol later) could maintain its own contingent of Freesails in lieu of a proper Navy and that this contingent would be allied with the other Freesails.*

How does Cormyr distinguish a 'war' ship from a 'peaceful' one? For example, a galleon or caravel can certainly be used for both trading or war and it's not like counting cannon is going to distinguish them.

Would a galleon out of the Vast, for example, be in any danger of being turned away or attacked because it was armed with several ballistae and carried an armed crew?

By the way, approximately how long is a Cormyrean 'war caravel'? How long are their galleons? How long is Filfaeril, the new fast galleon? Approximately how much do they displace? The historical vessels which bore these names have during their long history varied in size by more than an order of magnitude, which is a bit much for my tastes.

I'm wondering whether a trading convoy of two 'frigates' (130' long vessels designed to be faster, slimmer and handier than galleons) and a three-masted 90' long raker would be considered a prudent measure when sailing near the Pirate Isles or an intolerable threat to Cormyr's sovereignity of the sea if it desired to enter the Dragonmere.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Essentially, allies get passing honors, neutrals and enemies don't. Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight.


Could a Freesailor vessel freely board and seize any vessel sailing from Westgate that doesn't show the flag of a friendly power? Is such a prize handled in the same manner as pirate ships taken under arms?

I ask because if so, my players will undoubtedly go back to their privateer roots and basically make Westgate an untenable harbour for anyone but allies of Cormyr.

Also, are ships required to show national flags? For example, do Sembian merchant vessels sail under the mark of their coster, their country or both? Is anyone not showing any flag presumed to be a pirate or at least a smuggler (not unreasonable, given that there appear to be more pirate vessels on the Inner Sea than naval vessels)?

More on Freesailors. How much freedom do they have?

Can they sail their ships whereever on the Inner Sea they please? Can they take passengers at the discretion of their captain, even from nations that Cormyr considers hostile or at least dubious (Thay, Zhentil Keep)? Can they function as merchant ships, earning money for a non-Cormyrean trading company? How is it viewed if their officers decide to take a hand in hostilities that do not involve Cormyr, such as that between Mulhorand and Unther? Are they seen as private citizens acting on their own initiative or is it viewed as tantamount to a declaration of war?

How does one cease to a be a Freesailor? Can the owner of a ship suddenly decide that he'd prefer to be an independent mercenary ship? Can he decide that he still wants to be a Freesailor, but a Sembian or Impilturan one (or a Raven's Bluff one, if the allegiance should ever come to be)?

*My PCs were given the task of acting as ambassadors for an airing of this idea as their trade takes them to Cormyr, one of their ships already belongs to the Cormyrean Freesails and the membership of their group is mixed Cormyrean (noble and common), Sembian and Raven's Bluff, including at least one knight of the city and an important merchant.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  11:48:39  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
However, if there's anything that either of you can tell me about the "Lords Who Sleep" I'm all ears... all I know is that they died during the ghazneth conflict in the Cormyr trilogy (which I read some years ago, and can't recall nearly enough of now).



The Lords Who Sleep ... ... I had at various times a Dragon/Dungeon article in the works for those fellows. But then Troy Denning decided to kill them all. Offstage. Finito. One of the less inspired decisions of the FR novel line IMO.

What follows is the beginnings of a Dragon article that I held onto for sentimental reasons.

“When Sitral’s brood pace the cobbles deep,
And great wyrms scour the twisted stones,
Ondeth’s blood will set the Lords Who Sleep
To slumber in Grolag’s bones.
For legions of fiends and the walking dead
Will bring ruin to this wooded land,
Unless those who should have been long dead
Array for battle and take stand.”

“The Foretellings”
Alaundo of Candlekeep
The Year of the Smiling Prophet (-58DR)

The realm of Cormyr has claimed the Stonelands, that area of trackless ravines and stone monoliths atop a rugged and imposing plateau north of the Storm Horns, for many centuries. Yet in all those long years Cormyr’s rule over the Stonelands has never exceeded the reach of a Purple Dragon’s blade. As the centuries have rolled on, various Cormyrean monarchs have awarded ambitious and successful adventurers the title “Baron of the Stonelands”, and charged them with building fortresses, fighting monsters and in truth holding the region for Cormyr. Such endeavors have met with limited success over the passing years however, due to the countless humanoids that infest the region and the vile machinations of the Zhentarim aimed at controlling overland trade routes throughout the Inner Sea. Yet the truth of Cormyr’s quest to rule the Stonelands lies in a secret known only to a few sages, the royal family of Cormyr and its High Wizard, and a shadowy group known as the Guardians. The secret relates to The Lords Who Sleep, great warriors placed in magical temporal stasis long ago to await the hour when the prophecy of the long-dead seer Alaundo would come to pass. As a matter of policy, the royal court of Cormyr refers to these stalwarts as “the Sleeping Sword”, so that most who overhear believe that an actual, magical sword is being spoken of.

History of The Sleeping Sword

The blood of House Obarskyr was fresh on the soil of Cormyr when King Keldroun succeeded his brothers Torst and Gordroun in the Year of the Waking Dreams (289 DR). King Torst and Gordroun had perished in flooded Marsember at the hands of Belorth “the Pretender” and his father, the pirate Kurrurdan, and Keldroun saw to it that Gordroun was crowned posthumously although he truly never ruled the Forest Kingdom.

Due to the suddenness with which Keldroun had the ruler’s mantle thrust upon him, the High Wizard Baerauble, along with the patriarchs of the Silver noble families, chose Aluth Greatgaunt to be the king’s constant companion and advisor. Aluth was a common born general who was blessed with great energy, foresight and an unshakeable loyalty to the Obarskyr line. He tempered the young king’s rashness and gently steered him toward a path of securing the realm against future harm.

The spread of great Anauroch in the half a century preceding the rule of King Keldroun, had seen the gradual disintegration of Hlundadim, the goblin nation north of the Storm Horns. The lapping sands of the Great Desert had brought this once mighty foe of Cormyr low, and many goblinkin fled into the High Moors, the Stonelands, and the northern fringes of Cormyr rather than face the brutal elements. King Keldroun led the Royal Host of Cormyr in hunting down the goblinkin raiders that plagued the northern settlements, and supported Melandrar Greatwyrm, an old battle companion of Aluth Greatgaunt’s, in his efforts to claim and hold the Stonelands for the kingdom as a first bulwark against the humanoid raiders. The “Stone Baron”, as Melandrar came to be known, led his mounted knights on many forays into the treacherous ravines of the Stonelands, slaying countless humanoids, and establishing the Stonebolt Trail, a crucial trade route connecting Cormyr with Myth Drannor. He also built a chain of hill forts west of the Stonebolt Trail to guard against the raids of the goblinkin that plagued the many trade caravans that now passed through the area.

Having brought stability to Cormyr, King Keldroun’s sense of satisfaction was deeply shaken by the counsel he received from Baerauble, High Wizard of Cormyr, in the Year of the Vintner’s Dagger (291 DR). The archmage brought to the king’s attention the passage from the prophecies of Alaundo that all scholars and sages agreed referred to the kingdom of Cormyr. Baerauble was sure that the time of Alaundo’s dread prophecy was nigh, pointing to submerged Marsember and the activities of Melandrar, the “great wyrm” of the prophecy, to support his belief. After taking counsel with Lord Greatgaunt, and being persuaded that his most loyal adviser was in firm agreement with the High Wizard, Keldroun had the Royal Sage Imindarth search the libraries and archives of the court for any reference to the mysterious “Grolag” of whom Alaundo spoke. Several days of feverish searching brought rewarding news when Imindarth discovered a reference to a goblin army of Hlundadim led by a chieftain named Grolag. King Moriann of Cormyr had defeated Grolag and his army in the Year of the Cold Enchanter (199 DR) in an area of the Stonelands known as the Needlespires for its countless, upward thrusting columns of stone. To the delight of King Keldroun, Baron Melandrar declared that he knew the site well, for it was a place avoided by the humanoids of the region, and used often by his men as a base camp.

Having unraveled the mystery of the reference to “Grolag’s bones” in the prophecy, the king’s closest advisors bent their wisdom toward deducing what the final lines of the prophecy meant. After more than a tenday of sometimes heated discussion the view of the High Wizard Baerauble prevailed that the phrase “those who should have been long dead” meant warriors magically preserved past their normal lifespans, rather than undead or the recipients of unreliable longevity magics. The task of selecting the warriors and constructing their place of rest fell to Lord Greatgaunt and he went about his work with the greatest possible secrecy and speed.

In the months that followed various well-known noble sons and some more notorious members of the nobility were recruited by Lord Greatgaunt to become The Lords Who Sleep. Having passed the rigorous magical probing of the High Wizard Baerauble, these worthies were whisked away by the High Wizard’s Art to the underground fastness that had been constructed beneath the Needlespires ...

That's about as far as I got before "Beyond the High Road" destroyed that little lore hook.

As an aside I can note that the creation of the Sleeping Sword led indirectly to the death of King Keldroun. The sudden disappearance of a host of younger noble sons sent rumours swirling that Keldroun was killing off various noble lines or kidnapping its members for his own evil, future plans. Nothing could have been further from the truth, but that didn't stop him being murdered by a group of allied nobles from the Turcassan, Immerdusk and Huntcrown families who saw the disappearance of their kin and younglings as a direct attack against their families' survival.

I recall from Ed's notes that Melandrar had a weredragon (song dragon) consort who was one of the Guardians like Emperel. Other notable members of the Sleeping Sword included Gelroth Turcassan "the Crimson Cavalier" (named such for his rose-hued platemail and his devotion to Sune), Andonia Huntcrown (a deadly warrior who many considered the best sword wielder, male or female, in the kingdom at that time) and the twins Arbruin and Erbruin Immerdusk (known as the "Bearblades" for their massive height and girth and proclivity to spout forth almost unintelligible warcries in the thick of battle).

I do recall that Brian mentioned to me a couple of years ago that he had "plans" for the Sleeping Sword and I remember that he had a 'play' with my rhyme above, but I'm not sure what happened to that project? Brian?

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  12:51:04  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent post George

Mantle Lore and The Lords Who Sleep in the same day - it doesn't get much better than that :)

Thank you for your ongoing work on the Realms

Kind regards

Damian


So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  13:42:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two questions, Krash:

1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?

2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?

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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  14:21:28  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I do recall that Brian mentioned to me a couple of years ago that he had "plans" for the Sleeping Sword and I remember that he had a 'play' with my rhyme above, but I'm not sure what happened to that project? Brian?
Not a project, exactly. Just Plans, still unhatched.

There was a bit of play I had with the rhyme, but it's lost in the files of my home computer, and would need a bit of time to dig up.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  14:24:32  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?
The design inspiration, or the in-character one? Design, you'd have to ask Ed, but it boils down to having an ever-present and legendary tale floating around Cormyr of defenders that will rise up in the kingdom's hour of greatest need. It's the 'Once and Future King' line of thinking, but for FR.

In-character, I think George has covered things quite nicely.
quote:
2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?
Not in their original form, exactly, but it's certainly possible that someone had the idea. Highlight for spoilers.

Vangerdahast certainly had such an idea, leading to his plans that are revealed in Elminster's Daughter and his eventual transformation into a dragon.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  16:12:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?
Not in their original form, exactly, but it's certainly possible that someone had the idea. Highlight for spoilers.

Vangerdahast certainly had such an idea, leading to his plans that are revealed in Elminster's Daughter and his eventual transformation into a dragon.



Yeah, I remember that, but I was curious about the idea of a Lords Who Sleep 2, basically -- trying the same idea again, with better security, perhaps.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  21:43:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Two questions, Krash:

1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?

2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?



The Lords Who Sleep have been with us since the Ol' Grey Box, specifically the NPC write-up of Emperel.

I've always considered them to be similar in concept to the sleeping knights of a book called "The Wierdstone of Brisingamen" by Alan Garner. Knowing Ed, he came up with the concept independently (and it is a staple of fantasy literature, as Brian points out) but Garner writes fairly evocatively about his sleeping knights and if I'd got a decent Dragon/Dungeon article up and running, I'd have drawn from his prose.

I also tinkered with doing a Lords Who Sleep II but Ed told me he was in the process of doing so. As Brian again points out (this is his thread after all - which I'm ungraciously sticking my nose into) this concept was hinted at in the novel "Elminster's Daughter" with dragons replacing humans.

I must say I love the concept of warriors held in stasis until they are "needed" and the original Sleeping Sword was a wonderful, wonderful bit of realmslore that did not receive its proper due.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  22:59:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd forgotten that bit about Emperel -- it's been quite some time since I read the Old Grey Box.

While I do like what Vangey is doing, I'd still love to see a mostly human version of the Lords Who Sleep get redone.

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  06:53:59  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd forgotten that bit about Emperel -- it's been quite some time since I read the Old Grey Box.

While I do like what Vangey is doing, I'd still love to see a mostly human version of the Lords Who Sleep get redone.



Well... there *is* precedent for Realms novels being demoted from canon status (I won't be more specific out of respect for the authors, because there's nothing wrong with the books as stories in and of themselves, imo)... and we've been talking about world resets elsewhere... so why not just follow through with a reset to "end of 2E" before the events of "Beyond the High Road"? Anything that follows would be campaign-specific and not canon, but we've (sadly) had fewer and fewer issues with such decisions since the $ellplague. I would personally like to see a Candlekeep-community-developed alternate timeline parallelling the $ellplague (and the 1370s in their entirety, if we agree to go back that far). Anyway, enough threadjacking... Wooly, if you like this idea, excise our digression in its entirety and start a new scroll. Otherwise, consider this threadjack dead.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 05 Nov 2008 06:55:25
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  15:59:52  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, Brian/Garen/Sage of the Purple Court, do you have anything to say about games of chance or gambling within the Royal Court of Cormyr? What's popular, what's bettable (and what's not), and what do the gossips say?

Steven
just wondering and not wanting to generate lore himself this morning


For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:04:41  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:20:58  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

So, Brian/Garen/Sage of the Purple Court, do you have anything to say about games of chance or gambling within the Royal Court of Cormyr? What's popular, what's bettable (and what's not), and what do the gossips say?
Oho!

Courtiers and servants at Court gamble on everything, from games of chance and skill--dice, cards, chess, knife-throwing, and other games--to which noble this lass or lord will try to bed, to the color of the Queen's gown this evening, to the manner of address a certain other courtier will receive from royal personages. In back rooms, gossip both precedes and follows such gambling, usually when the gamblers ought to be doing something more closely related to their duties than their entertainment.

One caveat: games of chance, at Court, are played among equals. Nobles don't play with servants or guardsmen (they reserve that for taverns and seedier locales), though they will gamble over predictions with anyone whose acquaintance they have made... and can trust to both pay up and shut up.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:24:13  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khorne

But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?
The Lords that Sleep weren't intended as a counterweight to a great, single threat (like the Devil Dragon), but against a sweeping menace that required skill, bravery and leadership from persons ready to lay down their lives for the kingdom. They are, as much as sleeping knights arrayed in magical arms, nobles of the realm that will wake, ready to lead Cormyreans, in their darkest hour, past evils unimaginable back into the light.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  17:38:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by khorne

But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?
The Lords that Sleep weren't intended as a counterweight to a great, single threat (like the Devil Dragon), but against a sweeping menace that required skill, bravery and leadership from persons ready to lay down their lives for the kingdom. They are, as much as sleeping knights arrayed in magical arms, nobles of the realm that will wake, ready to lead Cormyreans, in their darkest hour, past evils unimaginable back into the light.



Not only that, but there's that whole prophecy... One or more of the Sleeping Lords could have done something else quite vital in a dark hour. It could be something like leading the right charge, or defending the right person or place, or pulling a Frodo, or anything like that.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  21:42:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed told me that all of the Lords Who Sleep had 'wings of flying'. Whilst I'm sure that they likely would not have taken down the Devil Dragon, 100 hardened, veteran battlemasters hitting the dragon in mid-air and en masse would likely have caused some pretty significant damage to her.

I think that if I'd written "Beyond the High Road" (BTW, this is my hubris showing) my final scene would have been the first flight of the Devil Dragon, bellowing her challenge to the realm as she wings in over the Stonelands with the last few paragraphs of the book devoted to the Sleeping Sword, what they are/were, and with them vectoring in on the dragon for a huge aerial battle.

My first battle scene of "Death of the Dragon" would have been this fight, as above.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  23:59:03  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it, George. I've got another one for you; let Brian have his scroll back.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  00:37:59  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry... it's the Needed-badly Document Again. I was playing around with a genealogy program and the Obarskyr succession list from the Grand History, and got to the Thronestrife... and can't proceed any further because we have no direct relationships indicated. Kasplara, Jasl, Arathra, and Barander are all grandnieces and grandnephews of Gorauna (descended, I would assume, from Berost, Gorann, and Ulbaeram), and apparently their parentage is [NDA].

My question is not regarding the parentage of the above, because I know you can't answer such a question anyway. Although... if that has changed recently... I'm all ears.

Anyway, my question (and hopefully the answer to this one isn't under NDA as well) is: are Keldroun's children Gorann and Gorauna twins? It's obvious that they're both named for his slain brother Gordroun, but I thought that they might be twins as well... if there is an NDA in place and I'm right, a "no comment" will be sufficient.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 00:38:32
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  01:25:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

I like it, George. I've got another one for you; let Brian have his scroll back.



Yeah, I know. I'll shut up now.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  02:29:07  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

The Hooded One, Lady Herald of Realmslore, 24 Mar 2008 : 17:48:44

Nevorick,
Ed tells me that the Thronestrife is still largely under NDA, but that a LITTLE more about Cormyr will soon be revealed in "an official manner and place," and that he will carefully check and see what he can and can't post here, in response to you. "Very early May" is his suspected timeframe for knowing that, unfortunately.
However, in my experience, the problem often lies in the broad "what can you tell me about" format of your query. Not with Ed, mind you; like all creatives, he loves having as free a hand as possible in answering you. Rather, the problem is with getting WotC permission/avoiding NDAs. Are there, perhaps, half a dozen or so very tightly focussed questions about the Thronestrife you could pose to Ed, here? "Yes/no" and "confirm/deny" and "am I right about this specific fact?" varieties, perhaps? This will really help Ed in seeing if he can skate around the NDAs, and give you a few specific answers and perhaps some strong hints. (The idea of NDAs is not to ruin the impact of forthcoming products, not to maliciously stonewall gamers wanting to fully enjoy the Realms they already play in.)
love,
THO



From the date of this quoted post, it was pre-GHotR... now, we have no further publications for FR outside of D&DI, which has been stated to emphasize post-Sellplague developments (which I agree that it should), and yet the NDAs still remain. Is this solely for the chance, however infinitesimal it may be, that there will be pre-Sellplague lore released through D&DI? If so, I think that Hasbro needs to give their heads a shake, preferably in converging directions at supersonic velocities. The people who love the pre-Sellplague Realms are not going to subscribe to D&DI just for the possibility of seeing something usable. The way for Wizbro to make money on the lore is to release it on a pay-per-download basis as Paizo does with PDFs of old D&D material.

Back to the Thronestrife: We know that Gorann's wife is Jalanthra (child Edrae) and Ulbaeram's wife is Silbran (child Raerboth; illegitimate children of Ulbaeram are Belmuth and Ortolar, mother uncertain, but possibly Silbran). Edrae died at around age 3, but all three of Ulbaeram's sons lived to be old enough to have children, some (presumably not all) of whom are named.

Berost: born 282, died 301 (first son of Keldroun)
Gorann: born 284, died 303 (second son of Keldroun)
Gorauna: born 284?, died 349? (daughter of Keldroun)
Ulbaeram: born 288, died 308 (third son of Keldroun)

Belmuth: born 304, died 334 (bastard son of Ulbaeram)
Sargrannon: born 324?, died 336 (first? son of Belmuth)
Imbrus I: born 322?, died 339 (second? son of Belmuth)
Imbrus II: born 339, died 341 (son of Imbrus I)
Ortolar: born 305, died 337 (bastard son of Ulbaeram)
Artreth: born 334, died 340 (first son of Ortolar)
Zoumdan: born 336, died 340 (second son of Ortolar)
Raerboth: born 306, died 326 (only heir of Ulbaeram)
Baerildo: born 325, died 328 (only? son of Raerboth)

Mad Meurthe: born 318, died 344 (granddaughter of Gorauna)
(parents unknown)
Kasplara: born 329, died 345 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Jasl: born 327, died 347 (grandnephew of Gorauna)
Arathra: born 322, died 348 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Barander: born 329, died 372 (grandnephew of Gorauna)

The previous four are descended from Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram in some combination, probably from unnamed daughters; if they were descended from Gorauna's consort's sibling(s), they wouldn't be eligible heirs to the throne. Anyway, that's all I have; I'd love to have some more concrete information so I can continue the genealogy, but it looks as though all this lore about the past is going to stay bottled up until the future (i.e., post-Sellplague) is described.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  03:49:11  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Ed tells me that the Thronestrife is still largely under NDA <snip>
From the date of this quoted post, it was pre-GHotR... now, we have no further publications for FR outside of D&DI, which has been stated to emphasize post-Sellplague developments (which I agree that it should), and yet the NDAs still remain. Is this solely for the chance, however infinitesimal it may be, that there will be pre-Sellplague lore released through D&DI?[/quote]The quote was from this past March, while Grand History came out last September. No products potentially related to the above-listed NDA have come out, and all NDAs remain until expressly dropped by the company (WotC), whether such a product is published, cancelled, or folded into another product. It's possible that they're keeping the NDA in place for a reason, or merely because they don't wish to allow anyone but Wizards to release information.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the question is. If you're asking about the specific relationships among the members of the royal family listed in your post, your answer is still, unfortunately, "NDA."

I will say this: all persons to sit on the Dragon Throne (yes, even Silbran) can trace their descent to Faerlthann First-King. Anything more than that will have to wait until (if ever) the Royal Lineage comes to light.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  04:20:05  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What are the odds that the Vast cities, being cultularly and geographically related to these nations, could apply to and receive a similar membership in the Freesails? In other words, that Raven's Bluff (at least, and perhaps Procampur and Tsurlagol later) could maintain its own contingent of Freesails in lieu of a proper Navy and that this contingent would be allied with the other Freesails.
That's not really how the Freesails work.

Freesailors are a sort of privateer, but with less authority (and more freedom) from its sponsoring country. Each Freesailor captain swears allegiance to a specific power, but they are not an organized force, and owe no assistance to their kingdom in formal combats. They are, instead, empowered to defend the nation against attacks and to capture pirates or lawless and nationless ships.

The cities of the Vast and other areas are not eligible for membership in the Freesails because this group is not an alliance of powers but brotherhood of captains and sailors, committed to keeping waterways free of piracy and the attacks of villainous kingdoms.

quote:
How does Cormyr distinguish a 'war' ship from a 'peaceful' one? For example, a galleon or caravel can certainly be used for both trading or war and it's not like counting cannon is going to distinguish them.

Would a galleon out of the Vast, for example, be in any danger of being turned away or attacked because it was armed with several ballistae and carried an armed crew?
Attacked, no--not unless it began trimming sail or turning in such away that it appeared hostile (showing ballistae, etc.), or unless its crew was actively armed when approaching other ships (most sailors don't spend most of their time wearing blades unless they are spoiling for a fight).

Turned away? Absolutely. Ships entering the Lake of Dragons are expected to be there peacefully, and unless they stow and unload their ship-to-ship weapons, store ready warblades (not belt-knives or similar, of course), and obey the commands of Blue Dragon ships in the area, they can expect to be turned aside.

quote:
By the way, approximately how long is a Cormyrean 'war caravel'? How long are their galleons? How long is Filfaeril, the new fast galleon? Approximately how much do they displace? The historical vessels which bore these names have during their long history varied in size by more than an order of magnitude, which is a bit much for my tastes.
Specifics on ship size, displacement, batteries of weapons, and such are beyond my areas of expertise. I could make up numbers, but they would likely be disingenuous.
quote:
I'm wondering whether a trading convoy of two 'frigates' (130' long vessels designed to be faster, slimmer and handier than galleons) and a three-masted 90' long raker would be considered a prudent measure when sailing near the Pirate Isles or an intolerable threat to Cormyr's sovereignity of the sea if it desired to enter the Dragonmere.
Any armed and arrayed ships, sailing into the Dragonmere, are going to be confronted and possibly opposed. Near the Pirate Isles is fine, but no three such large ships are going to be allowed to stay together so close to Cormyrean shores.

quote:
Could a Freesailor vessel freely board and seize any vessel sailing from Westgate that doesn't show the flag of a friendly power? Is such a prize handled in the same manner as pirate ships taken under arms?

I ask because if so, my players will undoubtedly go back to their privateer roots and basically make Westgate an untenable harbour for anyone but allies of Cormyr.
No, they can't. Freesailors reserve their efforts to eliminating (and, on occasion, practicing) piracy, and avoid assaulting ships in and out of Westgate particularly. The ships of that city, and the coin it commands, would at the very least create a nuisance for the formal Navy of Cormyr if true conflict broke out, and they do not wish to be blamed.

quote:
Also, are ships required to show national flags? For example, do Sembian merchant vessels sail under the mark of their coster, their country or both? Is anyone not showing any flag presumed to be a pirate or at least a smuggler (not unreasonable, given that there appear to be more pirate vessels on the Inner Sea than naval vessels)?
There is no Law of the Sea, as such, in the Realms. Ships are expected to fly a national flag, and failure to do so means that a ship's captain cannot claim the protection of any nation if attacked (though they can still appeal to they nation of the attacker for justice).

quote:
More on Freesailors. How much freedom do they have?

Can they sail their ships whereever on the Inner Sea they please? Can they take passengers at the discretion of their captain, even from nations that Cormyr considers hostile or at least dubious (Thay, Zhentil Keep)? Can they function as merchant ships, earning money for a non-Cormyrean trading company? How is it viewed if their officers decide to take a hand in hostilities that do not involve Cormyr, such as that between Mulhorand and Unther? Are they seen as private citizens acting on their own initiative or is it viewed as tantamount to a declaration of war?
Freesailors represent their kingdoms, and as privateers, their actions can precipitate hostilities. They are bound by the laws and dictates of their nation, but are not military officers or envoys, and as such do not speak for the kingdom.

In exchange for the freedom of the seas--to capture pirates and enemies of the Crown--Freesailors give a cut (50%) of their booty to the kingdom on landing within a home port. A Captain can choose to gift a captured ship to the Crown toward this amount, and this usually reduces the amount owed to a great degree (as well as cutting down on command and bookkeeping problems).

quote:
How does one cease to a be a Freesailor? Can the owner of a ship suddenly decide that he'd prefer to be an independent mercenary ship? Can he decide that he still wants to be a Freesailor, but a Sembian or Impilturan one (or a Raven's Bluff one, if the allegiance should ever come to be)?
This requires a very explicit declaration to the appropriate authority, and is essentially a surrender of any right of citizenship, authority, title, lands or rank within the former kingdom. In other words, the decision is not taken lightly.

quote:
*My PCs were given the task of acting as ambassadors for an airing of this idea as their trade takes them to Cormyr, one of their ships already belongs to the Cormyrean Freesails and the membership of their group is mixed Cormyrean (noble and common), Sembian and Raven's Bluff, including at least one knight of the city and an important merchant.
Freesailor ships belong to their captains. A Freesailor can't captain someone else's ship, though a group of collective owners can choose to band together under a single captain. In the Inner Sea, all ships must have a captain, and this person is responsible for all the acts of a ship; of all the informal naval laws, this one is the most "enforced," with a given Captain always held liable for whatever occurs on his ship... save mutiny.

More information about naval issues in the Inner Sea, the Freesails, and similar issues can be found in Pirates of the Fallen Stars and the Sea of Fallen Stars boxed set.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  05:58:24  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the question is. If you're asking about the specific relationships among the members of the royal family listed in your post, your answer is still, unfortunately, "NDA."


That much I suspected. My primary question was phrased more as a speculation, to wit: "The previous four [Kasplara, Jasl, Arathra, and Barander] are descended from Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram in some combination, probably from unnamed daughters; if they were descended from Gorauna's consort's sibling(s), they wouldn't be eligible heirs to the throne." Can you at least confirm or deny that speculation? Never mind... your following paragraph confirms it. Edit: Unless... there's something very convoluted and incestuous going on...

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

I will say this: all persons to sit on the Dragon Throne (yes, even Silbran) can trace their descent to Faerlthann First-King. Anything more than that will have to wait until (if ever) the Royal Lineage comes to light.



I wondered about that when I saw her entry in the succession... but if Silbran was an Obarskyr before marriage... I suppose she could be a descendant of Besmra and Kurrurdan, or really from anyone else through an undocumented line (read: somebody's daughter). All we have in the GHotR is the line of succession, which is only father to son about half the time, at a very rough estimate.

Okay... who do I need to write letters to about releasing the Royal Lineage? Polls on CK and requests on the Wizards boards are not sufficient, I know. I would also love to see a novel by Ed on the Thronestrife... preferably before the release of the Lineage, but I definitely want to see the latter happen, so if my "double hockey sticks" comment in my sig is accurate with respect to a novel set in early Cormyr, then by all means I would rather at least have the lore. I'll add the contact info to my poll scroll if you are able to provide it.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 08:15:49
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Faraer
Great Reader

3298 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  09:48:08  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George, thank you for sharing your Those Who Sleep text. (I'd still like to see the FRQ1 maps, though!)

Those brief lines in Beyond the High Road were such a thorough example of How Not to Handle a Shared World:

1. You don't delete parts of the setting, especially old ones, especially when other people created them, without (a) an excellent dramatic reason and (b) replacing it with things at least as good.

2. You don't show off how badass your antagonists/protagonists are by one-upmanship, casually and dramatically having them wipe out other people's characters.

3. You don't tell simplified, more boring stories in a complex world. You don't crudely simplify the world by removing bits that don't suit you.

4. If you're going to squander threads intended for DMs for the sake of short-term novel sales, at least get some.
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