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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
657 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  06:11:10  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage  Send Ayunken-vanzan an AOL message  Send Ayunken-vanzan an ICQ Message  Click to see Ayunken-vanzan's MSN Messenger address Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Shadovar have undergone some changes by becoming Shades and switching their alignment to Shar. The Empire of Netheril of old was neutral in its outlook, I think, and not bound to a single (evil) goddess. On the contrary, Halruaa has every right to claim being the true Empire of Netheril, resembling it much closer than the one (two) city state of New Netheril.

"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail

"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl

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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  13:44:53  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh yes, I know that. They're not the "pure" Netherese of old, of course. However, when those people who claim all of old America from Rhode Island actually have the military and technical prowess to actually prove themselves by subjugating a nearby kingdom (Canada) as a vassal state (Like Sembia), destroy a major Al-Qaeda (Zhent) stronghold, and is forced to be kept in check by all its neighbors yet its spies are still abundant throughout the world (Faerun), I think it's safe to say that Netheril, for all intents and purposes, has returned. Just in a more...shadowy/evil way.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3075 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  13:50:07  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, it doesn't matter anyway. Shade was just a rip-off of Earthdawn's Vivane of the Thera empire.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  23:38:47  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Elaborate on why you think Netheril isn't the Netheril from before. Does this merely stem from anti-4E/anti-4E Realms feelings...?



Nope.

The old empire of Netheril wasn't ruled by people enthralled by a single evil goddess--or any gods, for that matter. I think that is no small difference right there. Also, they only represent one former Netherese state (the one that happened to turn shadowy).


"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Oct 2008 23:43:29
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe

933 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  23:58:00  Show Profile  Visit Arion Elenim's Homepage  Click to see Arion Elenim's MSN Messenger address Send Arion Elenim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity...

My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
618 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2008 :  00:36:43  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Use the Post-Spellplague Realms? Uh, no?

If I wanted my players to suffer I'd give them the World of Synibarr. Though, I think that playing in even that world would be a blessing compared to the Post-Spellplague Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30642 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2008 :  00:47:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity...



Actually, the timing of the event is in question. It's been described as having happened the day before the Fall of Netheril, minutes before the Fall, and at the same time as the Fall. And I don't know of any references that Shar initiated it -- the references that come most readily to mind was that it was initiated by Lord Shadow.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  17:43:47  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I agree with that too.



-It'd be impossible not to!

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  17:45:38  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Netheril was an empire of many city-states, of which Shade was a minority. It would be akin to all of America disappearing then having people from Rhode Island* re-appearing and claiming they are America.

*Nothing against Rhode Island, I'm using it because it's the smallest portion of the country.



-This is an excellent analogy, for the most part. I don't necessarily agree with the Rhode Island part, however, since the Shade Enclave was a Netherese Enclave. It wasn't, as Rhode Island implies, a backwards, nowhere, two-bit, farm somewhere. Lord Shadow did have an enclave of his own, and as such, was part of the ruling class of Netherese.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  17:46:51  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

The Shadovar have undergone some changes by becoming Shades and switching their alignment to Shar. The Empire of Netheril of old was neutral in its outlook, I think, and not bound to a single (evil) goddess. On the contrary, Halruaa has every right to claim being the true Empire of Netheril, resembling it much closer than the one (two) city state of New Netheril.



-Indeed, Halruaa is/was the legitimate successor of Netheril. The other legacy states that were created after Karsus' Folly, all eventually collapsed.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  17:58:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity...



Actually, the timing of the event is in question. It's been described as having happened the day before the Fall of Netheril, minutes before the Fall, and at the same time as the Fall. And I don't know of any references that Shar initiated it -- the references that come most readily to mind was that it was initiated by Lord Shadow.



-There's conflicting reports in different sources, yup. The original mention, in the N:EoM box set said that, at a time roughly corresponding with Karsus' Folly, the city was pulled into a misty, shadowy dimension. Exact details were not given. In the short story "Too Long in the Dark", in Realms of Shadow, the scene of the enclave falling ends with the Weave being restored, but Lord Shadow and the other Princes continuing to take the Shade Enclave into the Plane of Shadows. And, finally, Lords of Darkness says that, on the eve of the event, Lord Shadow had the enclave teleported, returned a few weeks later, saw the destruction of Netheril, and went back to the Plane of Shadows until 1,372 DR.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 23 Oct 2008 17:58:59
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30642 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  18:04:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity...



Actually, the timing of the event is in question. It's been described as having happened the day before the Fall of Netheril, minutes before the Fall, and at the same time as the Fall. And I don't know of any references that Shar initiated it -- the references that come most readily to mind was that it was initiated by Lord Shadow.



-There's conflicting reports in different sources, yup. The original mention, in the N:EoM box set said that, at a time roughly corresponding with Karsus' Folly, the city was pulled into a misty, shadowy dimension. Exact details were not given. In the short story "Too Long in the Dark", in Realms of Shadow, the scene of the enclave falling ends with the Weave being restored, but Lord Shadow and the other Princes continuing to take the Shade Enclave into the Plane of Shadows. And, finally, Lords of Darkness says that, on the eve of the event, Lord Shadow had the enclave teleported, returned a few weeks later, saw the destruction of Netheril, and went back to the Plane of Shadows until 1,372 DR.



I prefer the Lords of Darkness one, myself. It's the most recent sourcebook, and it makes the most sense, to me.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  20:05:10  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I prefer the Lords of Darkness one, myself. It's the most recent sourcebook, and it makes the most sense, to me.



-I, personally, prefer the depiction in the original Netheril: Empire of Magic source, where it just disappeared, and no one knew what happened to it. The story in Realms of Shadow augments it, explaining what happened to it, and where it went, so I prefer the combination of those two. I don't like the Lords of Darkness source because, I find a lot that is mentioned suspect, when taken in relation with everything else. The Shade Enclave returned with relative ease after Karsus' Folly, left again, and then needed to be summoned via the ritual in The Return of the Archwizards trilogy?

-Meh, but we're drifting off-topic, so I won't elaborate anymore than that.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2008 :  17:55:14  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well now that I got my hands on a (free!) PDF of the Forgotten Realms pre-Spellplague campaign setting (3.0), I'm gonna take a shot at running a game in Mulhorand (again). Basically, while a Mulhorandi-Thayan war is raging, the PCs have to actually PREVENT the Spellplague. They don't do that until paragon tier. Until then...they can side with either Thay or Mulhorand

Like I said, I love the 4E Realms. They add to the excitement and the post-apocolyptic feel fits in nice with me and many of my groups, no matter what you skulky, brooding old-timers say about it

But I also like the pre-spellplague Realms, and now that I have the PDF of the 3.0 FR Campaign Setting, I'm gonna give it a shot.

Edited by - UNSpacy on 24 Oct 2008 17:56:46
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2008 :  01:13:01  Show Profile  Send Neo2151 an AOL message Send Neo2151 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Elaborate on why you think Netheril isn't the Netheril from before. Does this merely stem from anti-4E/anti-4E Realms feelings or does it have to do more with lore or perhaps the fact that Netheril now doesn't encompass as much land as it used to?

Bear in mind, the Shadovar are technically pure Netherese, and for all intents and purposes, the tribes that once roamed Anauroch and the surrounding regions (and likely more outward) were once under Netheril's thumb and so, are Netherese.



quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Netheril was an empire of many city-states, of which Shade was a minority. It would be akin to all of America disappearing then having people from Rhode Island* re-appearing and claiming they are America.

*Nothing against Rhode Island, I'm using it because it's the smallest portion of the country.


(Quoted for agreement)

Not to mention that sure, while the Shade of 4E is an extremely powerful nation, it has nothing on the Netheril of yesterday. Just look at magical might alone. The magic of ancient Netheril was potent enough that it would probably only take a handful (at most) of Netherese High Wizards to crush what Shade Enclave was in 3.X. NOW, look how weak the magic of 4E is compared to 3.X.

quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.



Since magic is such a huge HUGE part of Faerun, and since 4E has nerfed the bejesus out of magic to make things "more balanced" (/sarcasm), then how did you play out Ancient Netheril's magic, (considering, as I said above, even 3.X's magic system had nothing on the magic of that timeframe, and 4E's is even less potent)?

[EDIT]: To stay on topic, I voted no. If I want to stop playing in FR and make my players adapt to brand new rules on a world no one can really claim to be familiar with anymore, I'll switch to some other world. If I want to play in Faerun, I'll play in Faerun; not the ridiculous post-spellplague 'thing' that they're turning FR into. I'll still buy the occasional FR novel that grabs my interest (for example, anything Ed Greenwood of course) but as far as source books for D&D? No more of my money for Wizbro

"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."

-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire

Edited by - Neo2151 on 26 Oct 2008 01:23:37
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Magister Sunstrider
Acolyte

USA
12 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2008 :  01:16:09  Show Profile  Visit Magister Sunstrider's Homepage Send Magister Sunstrider a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not one penny of my money will be spent for the MMO ruleset that is 4E (I have a subscription to World of Warcraft for that, and yes it reads like a poorly written MMO insiders guide) and certainly will never get anything for the abomination that is the 4E Forgotten Realms. The one good thing that has come out of 4E for me the the mass of 3.X material I can get for cheap now.

Play what you like and have fun with it by all means, its a game and a hobby. I was attracted to the Forgotten Realms years ago with a second hand copy of the Gray Box by the depth of its lore and sheer scope. To see that all nuked for the FotM MMO crowd is a tremendous shame. I refuse to endorse that nonsense that WotC has tried to sell me.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe

933 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2008 :  01:38:46  Show Profile  Visit Arion Elenim's Homepage  Click to see Arion Elenim's MSN Messenger address Send Arion Elenim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I concur, I'm still to emersed in 3.5. But I'm writing short stories in 4th to keep up with demand so...whatyagonnado?

My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2916 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2008 :  19:50:53  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arry

Do you intend using the post-Spellplague Realms? Either now or in the future, rules-as-written, house ruled or home-brew.


-I voted yes. I will eventually run a 4E FR Game. I still have a bunch of 3E FR Games to play!


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2008 :  13:16:28  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to run an experiment using the 4E rules for a game set in 1372 DR. My main group is better suited to the much simpler 4E ruleset but I would prefer to use 3.5E if my other group can return to "regular" status.

I will state that I have absolutely no intention of ever using those bare bones that are referred to as FR4E.

Best
E
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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2008 :  16:01:11  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Such colorful words for hating on the Realms and 4e. :|

Edited by - UNSpacy on 23 Nov 2008 16:01:52
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2008 :  20:45:14  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really don't like at all what the developers did with the setting in 4e. I'm certainly not drawn to it. In fact I'm kind of repulsed by it. It feels as if an extraordinary creation, something truly grand, and very intricately constructed in loving detail by many, many sets of hands had been surreptitiously smashed to bits by a bunch of brainless kids. To me what the developers did denotes a fundamental lack of regard for all the hard work and care that went into building up what may be the vastest, most elaborate fantasy setting ever designed.

Anyway, I'm a computer gamer. So what I do revolves around that medium. If a really good game came out that used 4th edition, I'd play it, sure. But for the immediate foreseeable future I'm perfectly content creating mods for the Baldur's Gate series (set in my favorite edition, 2e AD&D). If I ever get the bug to toolset or write lore for a NWN series PW again it could be in 4e but I'll have to see what the future brings. I don't have any plans for it, let's put it that way.
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houstonderek
Acolyte

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  11:57:33  Show Profile  Visit houstonderek's Homepage Send houstonderek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not moving on to the 4e Realms. To be honest, the setting (three editions worth of material) will probably just entertain me as reading material form here on out, with an occasional revival for old times sake. I'm going to move on to Pathfinder as my "D&D" rules set, and I'll be exploring the possibilities of Golarion and reviving my homebrew.

I don't particularly care for 4e or the Spellplague Realms, but I am glad that 4e has attracted some new players to the hobby. We need all the fresh blood we can get (and retrain) at this point, lest us Grognards be running the last games in the "Shady Oaks Retirement Home", our grandkids looking on, shaking their heads at the old ones playing that "silly book game" while WoWing from their chip implant...
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe

264 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  13:19:01  Show Profile  Visit Darkheyr's Homepage  Send Darkheyr an ICQ Message  Click to see Darkheyr's MSN Messenger address Send Darkheyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My group is presently stumbling through the Weloon adventure. If they follow the story line long enough after that, and the campaign actually lasts that long, the "Year of the Revelation" will eventually be reached.

There will be no Spell Plague.

I'm somewhat partial to reviving good olde Bhaal and Myrkul instead. *smirks*

silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World
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shoonvii
Acolyte

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  18:53:39  Show Profile  Visit shoonvii's Homepage Send shoonvii a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm an old-timer, but I'm making it work. My campaigns have always focused on the characters, not "the big picture" so it hasn't been hard. I really dislike a lot of the changes, but do my best to make it still feel like the Realms. We have continued old storylines from previous editions with long-lived characters or descendants of characters long-dead and the campaign is going strong.

I AM saddened by what has happened to the core community of Realms fans, however. Years ago, it seemed like you could find tons of awesome fan-made stuff online for the Realms, but these days the excitement seems to be gone. The only stuff I can find is the stuff that was there before the transition to 4e (the stuff I already had). The designers seem to have really alienated a lot of folks.

I look forward to more great 4e novels from the likes of Schend and Kemp, though. Those guys have really done a lot with the turd sandwich 4e dealt them.
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Tyr
Learned Scribe

225 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2009 :  19:39:02  Show Profile  Visit Tyr's Homepage Send Tyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, which is a shame, cos you know the proverb about polishing a turd.

If I ever had to deal with a Spellplague event in game i'd probably go with my first impression when I heard the first rumours going round, that it was somekind of magical affliction targeted at spellcasters. I suppose in that case you could convert spellscarred into carriers of the sickness.
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