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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
316 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2008 :  11:21:25  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

There are many folks who dig FR 4E. However, Candlekeep scribes do not fit in this boat for the most part in my opinion. So, any polls pertaining to 4e are biased by the participants here and basically self proven before they even begin.(again, in my opinion)



I quite agree scererar. I'm not trying to 'prove' anything about 4e, merely trying to find out what the feeling is as far as Candlekeep is concerned. The 4e Realms is still the Realms, I just want some quantitative data as opposed to qualitative.

Edited by - arry on 16 Oct 2008 11:24:59
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2008 :  16:33:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arry

If you look at the results, you are not alone. So far, not in the majority, but what does that matter. If you are having fun playing in whatever version of the Realms I don't think that anything else matters.



Yes, of course. You like what you like, you know? Just enjoy it.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2008 :  17:11:12  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

There are many folks who dig FR 4E. However, Candlekeep scribes do not fit in this boat for the most part in my opinion. So, any polls pertaining to 4e are biased by the participants here and basically self proven before they even begin.(again, in my opinion)



-It provides tangible data that can be used. Rather than saying, "I think most people here don't like X", you can now say, "According to this poll, Y percentage doesn't like X".

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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TwigB
Seeker

South Africa
46 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2008 :  23:30:08  Show Profile  Visit TwigB's Homepage Send TwigB a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by scererar

There are many folks who dig FR 4E. However, Candlekeep scribes do not fit in this boat for the most part in my opinion. So, any polls pertaining to 4e are biased by the participants here and basically self proven before they even begin.(again, in my opinion)


Of course. Candlekeep mostly attracts scribes who know and love the Forgotten Realms and that was decidedly not the target demographic of the new Realms.

The new Realms are targeted at people who didn't like the previous Realms, don't want to be bothered with history and don't want any more complexity in adventures than 'Shar is evil and all evil obeys her. That guy is a priest of Shar and hanging out in a dungeon with his level-appropriate challenge buddies, kill him and take his stuff.'

Then they drop phat l00tz.



Hmmm...thats strange. I must be a bizarre breed of realms fan then since I like..no loved the previous realms. At some stage I was mocked by my party for knowing more realms history than ACTUAL history. I made my adventures very complex, filled with all sorts of intrigues and sub plots sometimes having no fights or phat l00tz at all.

All this and yet somehow, I still love 4th ed realms, Spellplague and all ...How can this be...maybe my condition can be treated with a prolonged stay in the isolation ward

The bane of the cabbage patch...The Twigblight
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2008 :  23:59:40  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by scererar

There are many folks who dig FR 4E. However, Candlekeep scribes do not fit in this boat for the most part in my opinion. So, any polls pertaining to 4e are biased by the participants here and basically self proven before they even begin.(again, in my opinion)


Of course. Candlekeep mostly attracts scribes who know and love the Forgotten Realms and that was decidedly not the target demographic of the new Realms.

The new Realms are targeted at people who didn't like the previous Realms, don't want to be bothered with history and don't want any more complexity in adventures than 'Shar is evil and all evil obeys her. That guy is a priest of Shar and hanging out in a dungeon with his level-appropriate challenge buddies, kill him and take his stuff.'

Then they drop phat l00tz.


That's exactly how I see it. As others have already noted, the 4E rulebooks and Realms books read like computer game manuals. I hate reading computer manuals, whether for software or otherwise, and I'm a computer technician. For me, the 4E books made gaming seem like work, but that may be because of my career and how much I prefer lore over mechanics.

Anyway, as you have probably guessed by now, I voted no. Not even a little bit. I'm actually rewinding some of the events of 1374 and 1375 in my Realms. Anyway, even I'm growing weary of this debate, and it's settling in as apathy over the Realms in general... which may be what Wizbro is aiming for, to get us ready for the next setting... which I won't be buying either. As of the GHotR, I'm done with new commercial FR products until we get a timeline rollback like the one rumored to be coming down the pipe for Greyhawk 4E. I don't care whether it's to 1357, 1375, or some point in between, as long as it happens.

[edit] To those who enjoy the new setting: Have fun with it, because, as has been said many times since this whole debate began, having fun is what it's all about.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 17 Oct 2008 00:02:50
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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  01:09:37  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.

I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.

And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time.
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  01:18:16  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as I said in my previous post in this scroll, I wouldn't be interested in 4e at all regardless of the time frame. Honestly, if the 4th edition Forgotten Realms books did not change the setting so drastically and with what comes off as ill-concieved and poorly planned explanations for all those drastic changes, I might at least buy into the new sourcebooks just for lore.


As it stands, I prefer the 3e rules and the pre-$ellplague setting. I just don't see any reason to continue supporting WotC at this time.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  02:41:22  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.



-I don't have a campaign. Now what? My "campaign"- the canon Forgotten Realms- is something that I cannot change, and have no control over.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 17 Oct 2008 02:42:34
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31149 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  03:42:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years?


Anyone can do that... But people shouldn't feel forced to do so.

A lot of people like sticking somewhat close to canon -- and a lot of those people feel they now have no choice but to ignore what's been done to the setting.

One thing that bothers me is that prior to this, I loved getting my hands on new Realms material. Now that feeling is gone -- not only can I not feel excited about the new Realms, but there's no more new material for me to actually lay hands on.

quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.



Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  04:59:24  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...



-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31149 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  06:21:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...



-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say.



I'll grant that a campaign doesn't have to be long. But the books came out in June. That's not even six months. I suppose a campaing could be squeezed into that time frame, but that's either a lot more sessions than once a week, or it's a campaign that sees characters only gain a few levels -- which is hardly worth calling a campaign, to me.

And five months is certainly not enough time to run "several campaigns".

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
316 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  11:31:17  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.

I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.

And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time.



Because I don't want to play with 4e rules.
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  15:14:10  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...



-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say.


Heck, my current campaign started in second edition and progressed through 3e (and 3.5e) on and off over the years. It is an enduring campaign. I can't imagine one-shots and short-lived stuff as a campaign... only as a diversion.
I'll grant that a campaign doesn't have to be long. But the books came out in June. That's not even six months. I suppose a campaing could be squeezed into that time frame, but that's either a lot more sessions than once a week, or it's a campaign that sees characters only gain a few levels -- which is hardly worth calling a campaign, to me.

And five months is certainly not enough time to run "several campaigns".


Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  17:29:59  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Netheril is back...


In name only.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  19:27:43  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Netheril is back...


In name only.



Name only? I don't suppose Evereska, Luruar, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dales are tense with a country in name only? I had thought Netheril proved its might as a true empire when it blasted Zhentil Keep to smithereens and conquered Anauroch and Sembia.


"Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run..."

You're asking this to someone who has a LOT of time on his hands. I'm still in high school, after all

The Unter campaign was actually played with the 3 core rulebooks and the old FR campaign book. The Netherese-Karsus campaign was played last month, and the Cormyr game is going on right now.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  19:30:00  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Name only? I don't suppose Evereska, Luruar, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dales are tense with a country in name only? I had thought Netheril proved its might as a true empire when it blasted Zhentil Keep to smithereens and conquered Anauroch and Sembia.


-Sure, in name only. Asides for the name, and land similarities, the new Shade Empire is nothing like Netheril. Psh, you can't have a Netheril without me being in charge. THAT is why the Shade Empire is not Netheril, though they claim to be.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  19:31:16  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy

Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? <chop>

I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.

And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time.



I've been with the Realms since the Old Grey Box. I like Returned Netheril and High Imaskar too. What I *don't* like is a world in which a majority of past lore (anything that wasn't already in a timeline) has been invalidated by the timejump, forcing me to create all new "present" minor NPCs and such things. If I'm having to do all of that, I'd rather just create my own complete world; I'm doing half the work of that anyway.

[edit]
Setting my campaign in the past only does half of what I want. I was interested in the storylines that were building up in the early 1370's, and wanted to see where those were going. Mind you, 3E did the same thing to me with their skipping over of the Manshoon Wars (not to mention their complete overlooking of Cormyr after setting the 3E introductory novel and adventure there), so I shouldn't be surprised.
[/edit]

I could live with the Smellplague, if it happened for a reason. It happened because 4E nerfs wizards in the name of game balance, and there can't possibly be a god worshipped by such pathetic entities, or they'd be better off. That, to me, is not a reason to trash a setting. I would suggest that it's a reason to re-examine the changes made to the rules and reverse some of them. I never thought that wizards were overpowered in 3.x; throughout all pre-4e editions I mostly played fighters, rangers, and barbarians, and the occasional paladin and rogue. I played a wild mage for a long time in 2e, and had a lot of fun with him, but I didn't think that he was overpowered, and I played a "stock" 2e wizard for even longer, and saw nothing there indicating unbalancing dominance. In the end, I preferred to play my non-spellcasting characters.

It's all a matter of personal preference regarding game style. I personally don't like the style of game 4e creates, and neither does anyone I game with. Even the two younger players in our group, who are MMORPG junkies, don't care for 4e. My guess is, even if 4e does well in sales, it won't have the same longevity that previous editions had, but that's Wizbro's aim anyway; product longevity means nobody wants to buy anything new in a couple of years. I'm predicting 5e for 2012... and I wish I were joking.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 21 Oct 2008 00:57:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  19:34:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netheril never messed with Calimshan or Jhaamdath, and got its Hiney handed to it by Seros, not to mention them avoiding the obviously more-powerful Imaskari to the south-east.

However, when it came to the Heartlands, you are correct, and they did 'rule the roost', so to speak. This 'New Netheril' is just a pale shade of the old one's former glory.

Pun inteneded.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2008 19:34:30
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Kamuraki
Learned Scribe

USA
78 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  21:10:57  Show Profile  Visit Kamuraki's Homepage Send Kamuraki a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!

Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!

Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.

Michael Bay: ...So?


I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.

*sniffle*

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

- Douglas Adams
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  21:38:55  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki

*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!

Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!

Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.

Michael Bay: ...So?

I love you.


quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki

I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.

*sniffle*


I'm sorry, too.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  21:40:13  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki

*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!

Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!

Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.

Michael Bay: ...So?


I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.

*sniffle*



-Oh, please. That is, like, so last year, that analogy.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2008 :  21:45:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's funny is I made a post using Micahel Bay in a WotC thread just before reading that.

I would say it is a weird coincidence... but not really.

I was referencing the books that were coming out at the end of 3e, and their use of 'big booms' to sell the novels, in case anyone was curious.

I referred to it as a 'Micahel Bay Style' of writing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2008 21:45:20
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2008 :  02:06:19  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

-Sure, in name only. Asides for the name, and land similarities, the new Shade Empire is nothing like Netheril.


Yes, that was exactly what my comment was referring to.

quote:
Psh, you can't have a Netheril without me being in charge.



I agree with that too.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Oct 2008 02:10:07
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UNSpacy
Learned Scribe

France
78 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  00:17:55  Show Profile  Visit UNSpacy's Homepage  Send UNSpacy an AOL message Send UNSpacy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaborate on why you think Netheril isn't the Netheril from before. Does this merely stem from anti-4E/anti-4E Realms feelings or does it have to do more with lore or perhaps the fact that Netheril now doesn't encompass as much land as it used to?

Bear in mind, the Shadovar are technically pure Netherese, and for all intents and purposes, the tribes that once roamed Anauroch and the surrounding regions (and likely more outward) were once under Netheril's thumb and so, are Netherese.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3079 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2008 :  05:04:51  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netheril was an empire of many city-states, of which Shade was a minority. It would be akin to all of America disappearing then having people from Rhode Island* re-appearing and claiming they are America.

*Nothing against Rhode Island, I'm using it because it's the smallest portion of the country.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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