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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 01:09:37
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Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.
I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.
And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 01:18:16
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Well, as I said in my previous post in this scroll, I wouldn't be interested in 4e at all regardless of the time frame. Honestly, if the 4th edition Forgotten Realms books did not change the setting so drastically and with what comes off as ill-concieved and poorly planned explanations for all those drastic changes, I might at least buy into the new sourcebooks just for lore.
As it stands, I prefer the 3e rules and the pre-$ellplague setting. I just don't see any reason to continue supporting WotC at this time. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 02:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.
-I don't have a campaign. Now what? My "campaign"- the canon Forgotten Realms- is something that I cannot change, and have no control over. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 17 Oct 2008 02:42:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 03:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years?
Anyone can do that... But people shouldn't feel forced to do so.
A lot of people like sticking somewhat close to canon -- and a lot of those people feel they now have no choice but to ignore what's been done to the setting.
One thing that bothers me is that prior to this, I loved getting my hands on new Realms material. Now that feeling is gone -- not only can I not feel excited about the new Realms, but there's no more new material for me to actually lay hands on.
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.
Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 04:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...
-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 06:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...
-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say.
I'll grant that a campaign doesn't have to be long. But the books came out in June. That's not even six months. I suppose a campaing could be squeezed into that time frame, but that's either a lot more sessions than once a week, or it's a campaign that sees characters only gain a few levels -- which is hardly worth calling a campaign, to me.
And five months is certainly not enough time to run "several campaigns". |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 11:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? I ran several campaigns involving the PCs in the Fall of Netheril with Karsus, a Untherite rebel group against Mulhorand, and a Purple Dragon Campaign to rid of Zhent Keep...all using 4E rules.
I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.
And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time.
Because I don't want to play with 4e rules. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 15:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run...
-A campaign need not be long. One-shots adventures, short lived longer-planned campaigns, and such would constitute a campaign, I would say.
Heck, my current campaign started in second edition and progressed through 3e (and 3.5e) on and off over the years. It is an enduring campaign. I can't imagine one-shots and short-lived stuff as a campaign... only as a diversion.
I'll grant that a campaign doesn't have to be long. But the books came out in June. That's not even six months. I suppose a campaing could be squeezed into that time frame, but that's either a lot more sessions than once a week, or it's a campaign that sees characters only gain a few levels -- which is hardly worth calling a campaign, to me.
And five months is certainly not enough time to run "several campaigns".
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Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 17:29:59
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Netheril is back...
In name only. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Netheril is back...
In name only.
Name only? I don't suppose Evereska, Luruar, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dales are tense with a country in name only? I had thought Netheril proved its might as a true empire when it blasted Zhentil Keep to smithereens and conquered Anauroch and Sembia.
"Out of curiosity, how have you run several campaigns with a practically new rule set? Even if you ran them all at the same time, the rules haven't been out long enough for a campaign to have been run..."
You're asking this to someone who has a LOT of time on his hands. I'm still in high school, after all
The Unter campaign was actually played with the 3 core rulebooks and the old FR campaign book. The Netherese-Karsus campaign was played last month, and the Cormyr game is going on right now. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Name only? I don't suppose Evereska, Luruar, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dales are tense with a country in name only? I had thought Netheril proved its might as a true empire when it blasted Zhentil Keep to smithereens and conquered Anauroch and Sembia.
-Sure, in name only. Asides for the name, and land similarities, the new Shade Empire is nothing like Netheril. Psh, you can't have a Netheril without me being in charge. THAT is why the Shade Empire is not Netheril, though they claim to be. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Here's what I don't get: if you don't like the new Realms, why don't you just set your campaign back a couple hundred years? <chop>
I personally love the 4E Forgotten Realms. Netheril is back, High Imaskar has also made a comeback, and the Spellplague just mixes things up a LOT.
And this is coming from someone who has been with the Realms for a very, very long time.
I've been with the Realms since the Old Grey Box. I like Returned Netheril and High Imaskar too. What I *don't* like is a world in which a majority of past lore (anything that wasn't already in a timeline) has been invalidated by the timejump, forcing me to create all new "present" minor NPCs and such things. If I'm having to do all of that, I'd rather just create my own complete world; I'm doing half the work of that anyway.
[edit]
Setting my campaign in the past only does half of what I want. I was interested in the storylines that were building up in the early 1370's, and wanted to see where those were going. Mind you, 3E did the same thing to me with their skipping over of the Manshoon Wars (not to mention their complete overlooking of Cormyr after setting the 3E introductory novel and adventure there), so I shouldn't be surprised. 
[/edit]
I could live with the Smellplague, if it happened for a reason. It happened because 4E nerfs wizards in the name of game balance, and there can't possibly be a god worshipped by such pathetic entities, or they'd be better off. That, to me, is not a reason to trash a setting. I would suggest that it's a reason to re-examine the changes made to the rules and reverse some of them. I never thought that wizards were overpowered in 3.x; throughout all pre-4e editions I mostly played fighters, rangers, and barbarians, and the occasional paladin and rogue. I played a wild mage for a long time in 2e, and had a lot of fun with him, but I didn't think that he was overpowered, and I played a "stock" 2e wizard for even longer, and saw nothing there indicating unbalancing dominance. In the end, I preferred to play my non-spellcasting characters.
It's all a matter of personal preference regarding game style. I personally don't like the style of game 4e creates, and neither does anyone I game with. Even the two younger players in our group, who are MMORPG junkies, don't care for 4e. My guess is, even if 4e does well in sales, it won't have the same longevity that previous editions had, but that's Wizbro's aim anyway; product longevity means nobody wants to buy anything new in a couple of years. I'm predicting 5e for 2012... and I wish I were joking.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 21 Oct 2008 00:57:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:34:07
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Netheril never messed with Calimshan or Jhaamdath, and got its Hiney handed to it by Seros, not to mention them avoiding the obviously more-powerful Imaskari to the south-east. 
However, when it came to the Heartlands, you are correct, and they did 'rule the roost', so to speak. This 'New Netheril' is just a pale shade of the old one's former glory.
Pun inteneded.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2008 19:34:30 |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 21:10:57
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*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!
Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!
Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.
Michael Bay: ...So?
I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.
*sniffle* |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 21:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!
Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!
Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.
Michael Bay: ...So?
I love you.
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.
*sniffle*
I'm sorry, too. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 21:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
*gasp* I think I know why 4e FR got so messed up! They must've put Michael Bay in charge of the story development!!!
Michael Bay: So, we have this Cyric guy kill this Mystra chick, and there's this MASSIVE HUGE EXPLOSION WITH CGI GRAPHICS THAT COVERS MOST OF THE WORLD!
Random WotC Exec: Uh, Mr. Bay, this is all text based.
Michael Bay: ...So?
I'm sorry, I just like blaming MB for destroying things in the world I love. Like Transformers.
*sniffle*
-Oh, please. That is, like, so last year, that analogy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 21:45:03
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What's funny is I made a post using Micahel Bay in a WotC thread just before reading that.
I would say it is a weird coincidence... but not really.
I was referencing the books that were coming out at the end of 3e, and their use of 'big booms' to sell the novels, in case anyone was curious.
I referred to it as a 'Micahel Bay Style' of writing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2008 21:45:20 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 02:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Sure, in name only. Asides for the name, and land similarities, the new Shade Empire is nothing like Netheril.
Yes, that was exactly what my comment was referring to.
quote:
Psh, you can't have a Netheril without me being in charge.
I agree with that too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Oct 2008 02:10:07 |
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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 00:17:55
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Elaborate on why you think Netheril isn't the Netheril from before. Does this merely stem from anti-4E/anti-4E Realms feelings or does it have to do more with lore or perhaps the fact that Netheril now doesn't encompass as much land as it used to?
Bear in mind, the Shadovar are technically pure Netherese, and for all intents and purposes, the tribes that once roamed Anauroch and the surrounding regions (and likely more outward) were once under Netheril's thumb and so, are Netherese. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 05:04:51
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Netheril was an empire of many city-states, of which Shade was a minority. It would be akin to all of America disappearing then having people from Rhode Island* re-appearing and claiming they are America.
*Nothing against Rhode Island, I'm using it because it's the smallest portion of the country. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 06:11:10
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| The Shadovar have undergone some changes by becoming Shades and switching their alignment to Shar. The Empire of Netheril of old was neutral in its outlook, I think, and not bound to a single (evil) goddess. On the contrary, Halruaa has every right to claim being the true Empire of Netheril, resembling it much closer than the one (two) city state of New Netheril. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 13:44:53
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| Oh yes, I know that. They're not the "pure" Netherese of old, of course. However, when those people who claim all of old America from Rhode Island actually have the military and technical prowess to actually prove themselves by subjugating a nearby kingdom (Canada) as a vassal state (Like Sembia), destroy a major Al-Qaeda (Zhent) stronghold, and is forced to be kept in check by all its neighbors yet its spies are still abundant throughout the world (Faerun), I think it's safe to say that Netheril, for all intents and purposes, has returned. Just in a more...shadowy/evil way. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 23:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by UNSpacy
Elaborate on why you think Netheril isn't the Netheril from before. Does this merely stem from anti-4E/anti-4E Realms feelings...?
Nope.
The old empire of Netheril wasn't ruled by people enthralled by a single evil goddess--or any gods, for that matter. I think that is no small difference right there. Also, they only represent one former Netherese state (the one that happened to turn shadowy).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Oct 2008 23:43:29 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 23:58:00
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| Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 00:36:43
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Use the Post-Spellplague Realms? Uh, no?
If I wanted my players to suffer I'd give them the World of Synibarr. Though, I think that playing in even that world would be a blessing compared to the Post-Spellplague Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 00:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Shar basically just yanked the whole of it into the Shadow Plane to keep it all from taking a one-way trip to the floor of the Anauroch...good looking out on her part. Between that and using Cyric to bump off Mystra, boy does she ever know how to capitalize on an opportunity...
Actually, the timing of the event is in question. It's been described as having happened the day before the Fall of Netheril, minutes before the Fall, and at the same time as the Fall. And I don't know of any references that Shar initiated it -- the references that come most readily to mind was that it was initiated by Lord Shadow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Netheril was an empire of many city-states, of which Shade was a minority. It would be akin to all of America disappearing then having people from Rhode Island* re-appearing and claiming they are America.
*Nothing against Rhode Island, I'm using it because it's the smallest portion of the country.
-This is an excellent analogy, for the most part. I don't necessarily agree with the Rhode Island part, however, since the Shade Enclave was a Netherese Enclave. It wasn't, as Rhode Island implies, a backwards, nowhere, two-bit, farm somewhere. Lord Shadow did have an enclave of his own, and as such, was part of the ruling class of Netherese. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
The Shadovar have undergone some changes by becoming Shades and switching their alignment to Shar. The Empire of Netheril of old was neutral in its outlook, I think, and not bound to a single (evil) goddess. On the contrary, Halruaa has every right to claim being the true Empire of Netheril, resembling it much closer than the one (two) city state of New Netheril.
-Indeed, Halruaa is/was the legitimate successor of Netheril. The other legacy states that were created after Karsus' Folly, all eventually collapsed. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Post-Spellplague Realms
