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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:07:25
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Poll Question:
Okay, I know that this is asking a lot, but I would like you only to vote on this one if you have read (and maybe own) all three 4e Realms products (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, and Scepter Tower of Spellgard) and read at least three 4e Realms-related articles in DDi.
Now that all three 4e Realms products have been released and we have had a few examples of the 4e Realms articles in DDi, how satisfied are you with 4e Realms products as a whole?
Thank you for your input.
--Hawkins
P.S. Please keep all conversation on the attached scroll civil.
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Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 21:39:14
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| I am overall satisfied. I had hoped for more FR source books. As with all of the editions I have played over the past 20 years of playing in the realms, I take what I like from each and leave the rest. As with most of us, my realms is vastly different than the manufacturer's versions. I do like many of the changes in 4E, but will retain all my my lore from past editions and will probably also try to keep up with new FR lore as it presents itself. |
Edited by - scererar on 10 Oct 2008 21:40:06 |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 15:01:41
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I thought the campaign wasn't good but my opinion is very much coloured by my dislike for what has been done to the Realms. Even if I liked all the Spellplague and related events, the campaign guide is simply too empty to really feel like it has value.
The Player's Guide was rather good but again too sparse. The Sceptre Tower of Spellgard adventure is quite ok, IMO.
Overall that make me somewhat dissatisfied.
I haven't been that impressed by the DDI offerings either. The article on Cormyr was essentially a map with little in the way of content and the article on Auril's realm was useless for my game (if it had some crunchy bits for customising clerics of Auril it may have had some value). The adventure set near Loudwater looks OK but seems to be a poor strategic choice on the part of the brand manager to publish it as a 2nd level adventure when it is in the same region as Sceptre Tower. If one of the goals of the 4E Realms is making things easier for DMs, publishing an unofficial Loudwater adventure path should be high on the list.
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Regards
NXB |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 15:37:01
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| I won't buy many... |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 20:02:24
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| Haven't bought a single one, what I have seen tho... has been a ridiculous joke. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 20:29:03
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Okay, guys. You're skewing the poll. Hawkins wants people that have read through all three books and at least a few of the DDI articles. Not those that have only 'skimmed the book in the store'. Please, if you haven't read the books thoroughly, don't respond to the poll.
(And for the record, although I haven't purchased the books, I have sat down and read the thoroughly cover to cover. And still voted Most Dissatisfied) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 23:25:26
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I own and have read through all three of the 4E FR source books several times. Each time I find new nuggets of information that I did not catch the previous times. Same as any other edition, it is difficult to read through 100% one time. I can see first impressions being established though.
Additonally, I like the DDI portion of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, especially Dragon magazine. I would only pay for this aspect of the site though, as I have no need for the rules compendium or the virtual table.
As I previously stated, I like the 4E realms for the most part, even the spellplague, but I was also one who enjoyed the time of troubles  |
Edited by - scererar on 11 Oct 2008 23:27:39 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 08:45:57
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I didn't have a problem with the ToT. I didn't like the deaths of the Dark Three, but that was remedied in part by canon 3E and the rest of the way by my own campaign.
I quite liked the 3E shift... except that after introducing 3E with an epic adventure set in Cormyr, the first regional sourcebook, or at least the second, should have been set in Cormyr as well. We never got that Cormyr sourcebook, as I've complained about ad nauseam on these scrolls. Even I'm getting sick of talking about it, so I'm done. The death of Azoun IV was as big an event as the Heartlands needed, but I still liked the return of Thultanthar.
I thoroughly disliked everything about the way the Realms were brought into 4E. I thought that Ed had the right idea, moving away from Faerun/Kara-Tur/Zakhara and exploring Anchorome, Osse, and Katashaka. That's been stated elsewhere by others as well.
Question: What's this third 4E FR sourcebook? There's the FRCG and the FRPG, both of which I have read cover to cover and will never buy... and the mysterious third? I suppose that it's appropriate, given my earlier invoking of the Dark Three... I didn't really want to spend any more time in the Orwellian Realms, but I'll have to look that third book up now.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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WhrenKehrsyn
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 14:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Question: What's this third 4E FR sourcebook? There's the FRCG and the FRPG, both of which I have read cover to cover and will never buy... and the mysterious third? I suppose that it's appropriate, given my earlier invoking of the Dark Three... I didn't really want to spend any more time in the Orwellian Realms, but I'll have to look that third book up now.
Its not a sourcebook. The third book is an adventure. Scepter Tower of Spellguard. |
My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night. But oh, my foes and ah, my friends, it gives a lovely light. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 15:22:40
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| Very Dissatisfied.. Bring back the beautiful third edition books of the Forgotten realms...!!! .. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 20:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Okay, guys. You're skewing the poll. Hawkins wants people that have read through all three books and at least a few of the DDI articles. Not those that have only 'skimmed the book in the store'. Please, if you haven't read the books thoroughly, don't respond to the poll.
(And for the record, although I haven't purchased the books, I have sat down and read the thoroughly cover to cover. And still voted Most Dissatisfied)
Also for the record.. have sat down and read, havent bought, but as stated as i havent bought also didnt see myself fit to vote one way or the other ;)
I mean it was about customer satisfaction. And all these meters of old stuff dont count anymore, as they have been sure to tell me on wizards before banning me. (for suggesting genocide of orcs in charactar -this was evidently ruled racist.. nice to know tho that fictional races also count) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 21:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
(for suggesting genocide of orcs in charactar -this was evidently ruled racist.. nice to know tho that fictional races also count)
*snorts* In the 2E PHB, there's a piece of Larry Elmore artwork, showing a bunch of adventurers gathered around the corpse of a recently-slain and rather small dragon. Aside from the fantasy nature of the image, it's like a picture of real-world hunters, gathered around some large predator they'd taken down.
In one of Dragon's April issues, they ran a letter complaining about that image. The basic gist of it was "I can't believe you condone the killing of baby dragons!" Their response was along the lines of "But that's when it's easiest to kill them!"
Some people take this stuff way too seriously!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 22:59:05
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Agreed. They're freakin' orcs, to be meat-grinded by 1st-level adventuring parties. Will people start crying that freakin' beholders are not given a fair shake, and that they should be "given" their own nation, say, next to Cormyr or the Dalelands?
PS: I've loved all RAS stories until the Orc King (Drizzt books, Cleric Quintet, Jarlaxle/Entreri man-love duo). However, the prologue of Orc King (when they show Drizzt fight a band of humans/dwarves/elves and depicting these surface dwellers as hooded KKK members) just made me puke, and made me very defensive on future RAS works. I have purchased Pirate King, and will buy the last book (Ghost King?) of that trilogy when it comes out, but if Ghost King does not restore my respect of RAS, he will not count me as a customer anymore. There's a total of about 20 Drizzt books anyhow, and I've purchased them all, so dropping out here... meh... at least I was part of what made RAS famous or put his kids through College... so I don't feel so bad. But after all these years, big WotC guns like RAS should know better than referencing KKK, and moreover, should have opposed the Sellplague with unbridled passion and forced WotC to reconsider that move. My two coppers anyhow. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 23:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
But after all these years, big WotC guns like RAS should know better than referencing KKK, and moreover, should have opposed the Sellplague with unbridled passion and forced WotC to reconsider that move. My two coppers anyhow.
I've heard -- though I have no proof -- that RAS did oppose the Sellplague, and that, like Ed, he was overruled. I will repeat, though, that I do not know for certain whether or not this is true. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 00:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've heard -- though I have no proof -- that RAS did oppose the Sellplague, and that, like Ed, he was overruled. I will repeat, though, that I do not know for certain whether or not this is true.
Setting aside the posibility, RAS did write it.
Ed said he stayed to save as much as posible. Ed at least has revertable rights if he can not do one novel deal per year.
RAS as best I know has no revertible rights, perhaps except to some characters he has offered.
For both they had the option to say I will not wrote is, they both had the right to refuse the edit galley that would be published under their name.
We thus run into the issue that most likely they like the extra income, that would not support a career. Ed we know has a job not sure if RAS has a steady job (I did not look) that tends to support the hobby of writing for extra money.
Both might be trying to save as much as they can of the realms for that extra income. *shrugs* I do not know, however do know Ed has posted that his Realms often hit the edit floor. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 00:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've heard -- though I have no proof -- that RAS did oppose the Sellplague, and that, like Ed, he was overruled. I will repeat, though, that I do not know for certain whether or not this is true.
Setting aside the posibility, RAS did write it.
Not to play devil's advocate... But was it his idea to write it? We know that authors are quite often under constraints from above when writing novels. Hells, we know that sometimes editors go back and change things without the author's consent. For all we know, RAS was ordered to include the CCC, or maybe someone added it in after he'd turned in the manuscript.
I'm not assigning blame until I know who to assign it to. I wish others could do the same. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 00:40:36
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Indeed. And let me just add that I don't quite like where the tone of this particular discussion is heading. 
So, please, let's focus less on the "Designer-Blame-Game" and more on the customer opinions of 4e Realms products. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 01:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not assigning blame until I know who to assign it to. I wish others could do the same.
Nor have I, *sighs* just pointed out that some could have two masters, if not more. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 01:43:30
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Oh by the way I now did vote my view of what I have seen.
The Artificer is not something that I believes belongs as written and the Barbarian as a class was an error of 3rd edition that continues forward to the 4th Edition and shpuld not exisit at all as a class. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 04:34:09
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-I voted very Satisfied.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 13 Oct 2008 04:35:01 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 18:30:18
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-OK, here they are. Mind you, they're a bit long:
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
By Bruce Cordell, Ed Greenwood, and Chris Sims
-This is the big one, eh? Yeah…Though I dislike the direction that the designers have taken the Forgotten Realms into, I am going to be judging this sourcebook solely on the way that it presents the information, and what is in it, rather than how I feel about the direction that the designers took the Forgotten Realms in.
-So, there are 287 pages, for $39.99. Of those 287 pages, thirty of them are a waste. Thirty precious pages are dedicated to Loudwater (Pg. 6 to Pg. 36), detailing it, people in the town, and a bunch of mini-adventures that use the city. So, to someone who wants an encyclopedic overview of the new setting (the purpose of such campaign books), it’s 257 pages for $39.99. That’s still decent, when you figure that, a very good 3e era book, like Underdark, for instance, has a cover price of $29.99 for 191 pages.
-One of the things I dislike the most about this book is the pandering that the designers seem to be doing to non-fans looking at the book. Take the sidebar on page 4, for instance: “Not ‘FR’? No Problem!”. The way this sidebar is written, and the way that it is presented, it’s as if this is a brand new, groundbreaking idea, that you can use things included in Forgotten Realms books for non-Forgotten Realms games. I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but no, this is not a brand new, groundbreaking idea. Same thing with the “Nonplayer Characters” sidebar on page 86.
-I dislike that a sidebar was even included to mention this. Space is space. Space is precious. The same thing goes for the “Ten important Facts” column. Why are you wasting space here? All this information can be explained within the book, in the appropriate area. Same thing with all of the page-spanning pictures. I love pictures included among the text. No need for giant pictures that take entire pages, though.
-The adventuring things, I mostly like. The glossary is brief, and I wish it had more relevant terms, but it’s a good thought, and is going in the right direction. The adventuring and the law stuff, again, good stuff, if not a little abbreviated. The history timeline, again, brief, but better than nothing. The treasure part was the only one I didn’t really like. Honestly, most of that could have been put in the DMG, or the PHB, to make room for more Forgotten Realms-specific things.
-The chapter about magic, nothing really bothered me there. That had, really, an optimum ratio of D&D mechanics, lore, and information. Same thing with the cosmology section. I don’t really like the direction the designers took things in, but there was a good balance.
-The section about deities was one of the best parts of the book, but it, still, was very abbreviated. Being as that this is the only chance we’ll get a Forgotten Realms book talking about such things, I would have liked to see more information on these deities, and/or their churches. Changes in dogma? Changes in portfolio/sphere? Something? The chart concerning the deities was excellent. A very good idea, whoever thought of it. I would have liked to have seen something like that, only with the deities and such that used to exist. That would have been a very handy resource.
-The rest of the book, actually detailing the continent itself, I have no major problem with, design and layout wise. Content is a different matter, but I’m not judging things on that. I don’t like how everything got a uniform two pages. Honestly, certain areas could have probably been condensed to one page, while others expanded to three. That is what it is, though- some places have a lot more published information about them than others.
-Overall, in closing, the worst blow to this book is the lack of a timeline between 1375 DR (1385 DR) to 1479 DR.
-Out of a possible five Beholders, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide gets Two Beholders and a Chicken.
________________________
The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide
By Rob Heinsoo, Logan Bonner, Robert Schwalb
-Not being proficient with the 4e rules, which this book is obviously very heavy in, I won’t be able to critique and review the actual mechanical expressions in this book. In a way, though, I think that is a good thing, as the point of the review is to review the book in general, and not how accurately it portrays mechanics, or whatever else.
-First thing I noticed, the first couple of pages are virtually word for word the same as the first couple of pages of the FRCG. Again, and this seems to be the chief complaint of mine here- space. Space is at a premium. Why are you wasting space (albeit, it’s only two pages, but still) on something that’s already in the other book!? Same thing with the full page pictures. Again, the small pictures, with text around them, those are good. The full page pictures, though? Wasting space.
-Looking through the races chapter, the only thing I didn’t really like was that a lot of space was dedicated to “playing a X”. From reading the races’ descriptions, their homelands, characteristics, and the “X in Faerûn” columns, people should have decent ideas of what the races are like. No need to waste space and include examples.
-The Swordmage and the Dark Pact Warlock, I still say should have been included in another book. Being as that they are both new, and meant to be extremely general, as to better fit everyone’s campaigns, there’s no reason to include them in the FRPG book. The Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies, most of those were good. The character backgrounds were also good, though, like the character regions in the FRCG, I think that the uniform 2 pages each format should have been dropped, to give places that have more information on them extra room, and places that aren’t very detailed to have fewer than 2 pages. Though, the character motivations and roleplaying tips columns are totally extraneous, I feel, and should be removed to make room for other relevant information on the places detailed.
-The feats, spells and rituals, again, not knowing the 4e rules, there’s not much to say here. With the rituals, though, I wish that there were more Forgotten Realms specific ones. In all of the Forgotten Realms books, there’s plenty of interesting setting-specific spells.
-The deity section was totally extraneous, being as that it’s in the FRCG. All of that could have been removed, and areas that weren’t detailed in the Backgrounds chapter could have been added in.
-The last couple of pages, the Calendar of Harptos, and the language and coinage and all of that seems, literally, thrown in there at the end. I think it would have been a better idea to include such information at the beginning of the book, for people to read before reading the chapters on different areas.
-Overall, all that said, of a possible Five Beholders, I give the Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide three beholders. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 21:34:39
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| Thank you for the detailed analyses, LK. I found them quite insightful. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 00:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Thank you for the detailed analyses, LK. I found them quite insightful.
Yes, so did I. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Keravin
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 15:14:58
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I see nothing in the Campaign Guide to prompt me to buy. Wasting pages with a sub standard adventure is certainly not the way to entice me.
The Players Guide might get bought to use in the 4th Edition game we play in Eberron.
I've read all the books as part of my gaming group and because I was the old FR DM, but I have not been tempted to spend money on them. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 07:15:01
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The ONLY thing I like about any of the Realms.New.Coke books is the artwork. I might buy them used on Amazon or eBay just to cut them up for the art, but the rest of it can go straight to the pulp mill for all that I care about it.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Keravin
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 16:01:30
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| Normally the artwork entices me to get a book but I haven't really found that with any 4th Edition book so far. |
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Customer Satisfaction with 4e Realms Products
