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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  10:22:28  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Not only that, but Chosen were supposedly a problem that had to be removed... The new books haven't had time to even collect dust, and yet the supposed problem is now back.
I believe "the problem" such as WotC perceives it was always the NPC Chosen, not PCs as Chosen.

I think it's an interesting twist to keep the concept around by making Chosen characters available.

The effects of running one or more Chosen are now squarely in the laps of player characters and the DM now, which is great IMO.

Lots of roleplaying opportunities there.

Maybe in five or six years we can try it out in my 4E FR campaign (once the players reach the Epic Tier/Level 20).

The chosen are chosen by their gods and they receive extra powers. I think there are several problems / illogical consequences by making that available as a "class option":

1a. 3e: Chosen was a template, something that was added to something already in existence. This boosted the power of that something to above normal for that something.
1b. 4e: Chosen is a class in itself, just like others and nothing special anymore.

2a. 3e: Having a chosen in a group seriously imbalances that due to the power boost for the character. So this should probably NOT be done.
2b. 4e: Since chosen is a class just like any others it shouldnt be imbalancing.

All of this adds up to the game reducing "something special" to "ordinary everyday stuff". This trend has been apparent by the changes in the basic races (Dragonborn becoming "common" instead of staying "special", Gnomes being reduced to monsters, ...) and its one of the major grievances I have with 4e. Its a lot of lost flavour, because in 3e you could dream about becoming a chosen of your god and in 4e you can actually do it. What then though? What are your dreams when you have become a chosen? Ruling the world? Becoming a deity yourself? At this point it tends to become ridiculous IMO, but we might even see a "Divine destiny" for levels 31+ eventually ... if I let my sarcastic self think about it.

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  13:10:11  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like.... the bookcover, I think. Its kinda neat.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  13:12:47  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Epic destinies aren't classes.

My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  13:52:23  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

Epic destinies aren't classes.



True, but they are an extension of classes, much like Prestige Classes of 3.X. If you meet the requirements, a DM will be hard-put to deny you to enter the Destiny.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  14:05:41  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
This trend has been apparent by the changes in the basic races (Dragonborn becoming "common" instead of staying "special", Gnomes being reduced to monsters, ...)


Dragonborn need not be common even though they are a player race.

quote:
At this point it tends to become ridiculous IMO, but we might even see a "Divine destiny" for levels 31+ eventually ... if I let my sarcastic self think about it.



Well, there is already a Demigod Epic Destiny.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  17:08:47  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

Epic destinies aren't classes.



True, but they are an extension of classes, much like Prestige Classes of 3.X. If you meet the requirements, a DM will be hard-put to deny you to enter the Destiny.

Thanks for explaining that ... "epic destinies arent classes" is semantics.

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  17:29:04  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
This trend has been apparent by the changes in the basic races (Dragonborn becoming "common" instead of staying "special", Gnomes being reduced to monsters, ...)

Dragonborn need not be common even though they are a player race.

Its not only Dragonborn who have become a basic race, but who should have remained something special. Its the "spiral of violence" in green ... stuff in a game has to become more extreme to be interesting and next time you need more extreme stuff compared to the now-standard stuff and so on. Apparently the trend that our senses are dulled by daily life (1 dead person on the news doesnt wake up people ... there has to be a bomb explosion and much blood on the screen now) applies to games as well. Do we have to live with it? As grown ups I would like to consider us more mature than this.

I adapted the term "spiral of violence" to games about 15 years ago, when it became apparent in Warhammer Fantasy Battles that every new army published was quite a lot better than the older ones ... just so people would rush and buy new stuff for their "fun". It has since demonstrates the ridiculousness of some games - most notably WoW, where it applies to the graphic design but also to the names applied to simple healing potions. Sadly it applies to 4e (after it crept into 3e with tons of PrCs) and the game needs a lot more humbleness and fewer "kewlness".

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
At this point it tends to become ridiculous IMO, but we might even see a "Divine destiny" for levels 31+ eventually ... if I let my sarcastic self think about it.


Well, there is already a Demigod Epic Destiny.

Let me get a bucket to be sick in first before telling shining stuff about the glorious $E (the $ is on purpose here) ... if this is really true and not a joke.

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  17:47:34  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin[quote]
Well, there is already a Demigod Epic Destiny.

Let me get a bucket to be sick in first before telling shining stuff about the glorious $E (the $ is on purpose here) ... if this is really true and not a joke.


Alas, this is not a joke. And I agree with the 'spiral' theory, which is why I encourage my playing group to stay with straight classes with little variance or prestige classes (unless it's really cool in the story ).

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  20:17:05  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora


Thanks for explaining that ... "epic destinies arent classes" is semantics.



I think, perhaps, you and I have a different understanding of what "semantics" means.

My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  20:24:56  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Merriam Webster
The language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings.





Just kidding', Christopher. I know you weren't twisting the words around. But, the idea Pandora is coming with is that the game seems to lose flavor with some of us with the ability for a character to achieve 'godhood' just from making a rules-based choice.

Of course, the same thing was what the high levels were from the old Immortals boxed set, but it's been a looooong time since D&D has included rules like that.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  20:48:47  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And yes, the Demigod Epic Destiny is not a joke. It's in the 4E PHB.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  20:54:39  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

[...But, the idea Pandora is coming with is that the game seems to lose flavor with some of us with the ability for a character to achieve 'godhood' just from making a rules-based choice.

Of course, the same thing was what the high levels were from the old Immortals boxed set, but it's been a looooong time since D&D has included rules like that.



The deeper I get into all the Realmslore and rules material that I'm reading right now (and there's a lot of it, you should see my desk), the more I'm coming to the opinion that both the fourth edition Dungeons & Dragons game and the fourth edition Forgotten Realms setting have more in common with their "first" (and previous) edition antecedents than the third edition of either had in common with those same antecedents.

I rush to say that I advance this opinion not as a value judgment, but as an observation, and that I'm greatly enjoying all the 3.0/3.5 Lore I'm reading (though I must admit I'm not trying to read or understand the "crunch").

My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  21:50:58  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've noticed the similarities between 4E and the old Red Box set as well. Makes you kinda wonder...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  23:14:49  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The players of Mystara are liking it I hear...

As for me, I like the 4e rules. They make it easy for kids to play because they have cards to use that helps them remember what they can do. Having everything on one sheet helps adults, but children often have a hard time focusing on one section of a character sheet and remembering even where to find things. I personally like 1st edition...but that is another story.

The more I look at the New Realms, the more I like them...I don't like the discontinuation of the Old Realms (where a LOT of my gaming days were spent); but this new campaign world is fun...and yes, it does connect with kids. My oldest son is six years old and looking at the old artwork of the FR he was never all that interested; but he really likes the art now, so he is really looking forward to playing. His reading level isn't quite at speed for the game yet, but once he knows what a card does it is easy for him to play. I like that my son can play with me now (even if we have to stop to explain things better).

I know some people don't like that the rules "speak to kids" or whatever, I've decided it is a good thing. If the older crowd (myself included) wants to get more detailed, then we can do it on our own.

Currently my son likes Dwarven Clerics because they can heal people and "smash ogre face" too.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2008 :  23:36:32  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I know some people don't like that the rules "speak to kids" or whatever, I've decided it is a good thing. If the older crowd (myself included) wants to get more detailed, then we can do it on our own.

See, I don't mind the idea of appealing to a younger audience... I just wish they didn't decide to completely alienate the older audience by giving us the choice of accept the kid friendly product or be left behind.

If they continued to produce the game I liked AND introduced the new thing, I might be more inclined to try the new thing and maybe gradually move away from the old. Instead, it feels like its all about the new because we older gamers just don't matter.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  05:02:29  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have found many similarities in the FRCG with the FR Adventures... the treasure table, and the layout of the regions, as an example.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto
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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  08:59:46  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
They make it easy for kids to play because they have cards to use that helps them remember what they can do. Having everything on one sheet helps adults, but children often have a hard time focusing on one section of a character sheet and remembering even where to find things.


Is it wise to have "kids" play this game? There are is a reason why I think that people should not start this too early and I hope you understand my reasoning behind it:

To have fun in a creative game like D&D you need a basic amount of "reference material" from real life. This more or less adds up to learning as much as you can in school and your daily life as you can and the more you have seen the more you can use as a basis for further creativity. Lets see it like this: If you have trained at an art school and know the techniques that exist you will be better able to actually create something good you have been tasked to do than an 8 year old kid who hasnt seen much or tried much.
To gather this "basic knowledge" you need real life, because a virtual world is never going to give you the same experiences. Thus any time spent with D&D (OR computer games!) is actually time taken from that "experience real life and learn more" job which all of the kids have.

This might seem off topic, but for me it isnt because 4e has its rules and the look adapted for even younger kids and IMO that is a dangerous trend. Our children are sitting in front of the computer at too young ages instead of being out there and playing with others. Now D&D is doing the same just for a "quick buck".

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  09:53:19  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Currently my son likes Dwarven Clerics because they can heal people and "smash ogre face" too.



Awwwww, cute.
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  13:26:44  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora


Is it wise to have "kids" play this game?


Probably no more or less wise than having adults play it, really.

quote:

...4e has its ... look adapted for even younger kids...



No more so than any other mass market game (table top, RPG, console, handheld, whatever), and no more so than in the closely allied fields of sf/fantasy publishing and comics. I think you're identifying a general drift in aesthetics over the last decade and using it as a straw man to support an opinion about something else altogether.

As for the drift itself, my opinion of its "age-appropriateness," and more crucially, of how intended-audience age impacts the general (as opposed to specific) design aesthetic decisions of a product line, differs from yours.

(I'm obviously not addressing your opinion of the rules design here.)

My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  13:54:09  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think kids playing is inherently bad.

I played D&D throughout high school... so, sitting in a basement or a friend's back porch playing --not all that different, it was just lower tech sitting around than what kids have access to today. Many would prefer sitting in front of a TV screen playing Xbox 360 or Wii, or if forced out of the house, many have handheld electronic games to distract them from life experiences. Its just a new age and things are different. Actually, one could argue that playing D&D at an early age is healthy since it will encourage kids to play with other kids (rather than stare at a video game screen) and teach cooperative thinking.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  13:58:06  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Is it wise to have "kids" play this game? There are is a reason why I think that people should not start this too early and I hope you understand my reasoning behind it:

To have fun in a creative game like D&D you need a basic amount of "reference material" from real life. This more or less adds up to learning as much as you can in school and your daily life as you can and the more you have seen the more you can use as a basis for further creativity. Lets see it like this: If you have trained at an art school and know the techniques that exist you will be better able to actually create something good you have been tasked to do than an 8 year old kid who hasnt seen much or tried much.
To gather this "basic knowledge" you need real life, because a virtual world is never going to give you the same experiences. Thus any time spent with D&D (OR computer games!) is actually time taken from that "experience real life and learn more" job which all of the kids have.

This might seem off topic, but for me it isnt because 4e has its rules and the look adapted for even younger kids and IMO that is a dangerous trend. Our children are sitting in front of the computer at too young ages instead of being out there and playing with others. Now D&D is doing the same just for a "quick buck".



Even though I don't like 4E and it's dumbing down (reminds me too much 'No Child Left Behind'), I have to disagree with this. No child is too young.

Also, here's some Geeky Goodness.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  14:01:32  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora

Let me get a bucket to be sick in first before telling shining stuff about the glorious $E (the $ is on purpose here) ... if this is really true and not a joke.



I am not trying to single anyone out here, but this is a perfect example of what we do not want on this scroll. There are other examples that could be cited, but for brievities sake I only use this one.

There are many, many other scrolls where opinions like that can be discussed.

This scroll is for a positive discussion of 4e FR rules and changes, please everyone keep it positive for all of us and if you want to argue against it start another scroll or better, utilize one that has already degenerated to that denominator.

** Shakes head and Wonders if there is a ritual that he can cast to make sure everyone reads the first post and follow the spirit of the scroll**

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  14:10:46  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Red, I'm thinking that maybe you weren't too careful in what you wanted out of this scroll. Yes, there has been some negativity, but overall the tone of the scroll has stayed 'above water', IMO.

I (and I think others) see this scroll as a way is to discuss the changes, whether or not you like them, but to keep the tone civil. So, even though we might have a lot of people here that don't like the changes, they are (or at least trying to) keep the tone without negativity to discuss why they don't like the changes. Likewise, the people the like the changes are keeping a civil tongue and not resulting to grognard-calling.

If, on the other hand, you were looking to create a scroll where people are only talking about how great 4E Realms is, then we definitely missed the mark and you needed to be a bit clearer in the introduction of the scroll.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  15:33:50  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ashe, read carefully... this scroll is not about positive critics, or about "talking about how great 4E Realms is"... is only, and only, to talk about the positive things in the 4E Realms. This is clear, and simple, and is stated in the very first post.

About to be civil, Dr. Gregory House is very civil, too (well, sometimes.. But he is a kick in the lower parts, no matter how civil he is. And civility have to make sense, too. If I demand to eat watermelons, I want to eat watermelons, and not bananas, don´t matter how "civil" the bananas are offered to me.

I understand the point of everyone, but for rants about the 4E, we have a lot of scrolls. As Walker pointed in the beggining of this scroll, this one is intended to serve only watermelons, I mean,

quote:
...to encourage a discussion of just the things you see positively. I think we need a scroll like this were scribes, especially newer ones , can discuss the new realms freely and openly without being "called out", told they are wrong for liking it or even worse.


I´m not a new one, but I really want to eat some watermelons.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

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synboy
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  15:48:15  Show Profile  Visit synboy's Homepage Send synboy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking that the percieved problem with the designers wasn't the existance of the Chosen, but it was existance of Chosen that weren't the PC's.

The way that I read the complaint, the "Chosen" of other deities were job positions that were already filled, thus blocking the ability of the characters in assuming those positions. It's sort of like saying

"Hey, I want to become president of the US!"

"Sorry, we've already got one!"

It should have been (and should continue to be) made clear that the Chosen are, for lack of a better term, NPC's. You can become one, but that's pretty much it for that character. You should be so busy doing stuff (mostly non-adventuring) that you wouldn't have time to do anything that would be fun to play. Sort of like the genie in (Disney) Aladdin.

Enormous Cosmic Power!!!

Teeny Weenie Living Space.

I don't agree, but I can understand the argument.

I think the primary problem was the introduction of Chosen outside of the "original" Chosen of Mystra. Originally, there were no other Chosen. They were specific to Mystra




Not only that, but Chosen were supposedly a problem that had to be removed... The new books haven't had time to even collect dust, and yet the supposed problem is now back.
[/quote]
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  15:55:20  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

Ashe, read carefully... this scroll is not about positive critics, or about "talking about how great 4E Realms is"... is only, and only, to talk about the positive things in the 4E Realms. This is clear, and simple, and is stated in the very first post.

About to be civil, Dr. Gregory House is very civil, too (well, sometimes.. But he is a kick in the lower parts, no matter how civil he is. And civility have to make sense, too. If I demand to eat watermelons, I want to eat watermelons, and not bananas, don´t matter how "civil" the bananas are offered to me.

I understand the point of everyone, but for rants about the 4E, we have a lot of scrolls. As Walker pointed in the beggining of this scroll, this one is intended to serve only watermelons, I mean,

quote:
...to encourage a discussion of just the things you see positively. I think we need a scroll like this were scribes, especially newer ones , can discuss the new realms freely and openly without being "called out", told they are wrong for liking it or even worse.


I´m not a new one, but I really want to eat some watermelons.



My apologies, it does indeed state that.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2008 :  16:05:30  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

Ashe, read carefully... this scroll is not about positive critics, or about "talking about how great 4E Realms is"... is only, and only, to talk about the positive things in the 4E Realms. This is clear, and simple, and is stated in the very first post.

About to be civil, Dr. Gregory House is very civil, too (well, sometimes.. But he is a kick in the lower parts, no matter how civil he is. And civility have to make sense, too. If I demand to eat watermelons, I want to eat watermelons, and not bananas, don´t matter how "civil" the bananas are offered to me.

I understand the point of everyone, but for rants about the 4E, we have a lot of scrolls. As Walker pointed in the beggining of this scroll, this one is intended to serve only watermelons, I mean,

quote:
...to encourage a discussion of just the things you see positively. I think we need a scroll like this were scribes, especially newer ones , can discuss the new realms freely and openly without being "called out", told they are wrong for liking it or even worse.


I´m not a new one, but I really want to eat some watermelons.



My apologies, it does indeed state that.



You´re welcome.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe

USA
476 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2008 :  11:05:49  Show Profile  Visit Sanishiver's Homepage Send Sanishiver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keeping it postive.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora

2a. 3e: Having a chosen in a group seriously imbalances that due to the power boost for the character.
If you re-read the 4E Player's Handbook and the FR Epic Destiny information, I believe you'll see there's no power imbalance.

You're right that becoming a Chosen could seriuosly unbalance play, but that was in previous editions of the game.

IMO things have improved.

quote:
Originally posted by Pandora

2b. 4e: Since chosen is a class just like any others it shouldnt be imbalancing.
Not semantics. An epic desitny is more than just another class; it's a destiny.

You don't think the concept has any special meaning? I think it does.

And that's what I like about it. You can build your character for twenty levels of play, always striving for that goal, then if you survive you can obtain it.

I like that the game fosters goal-oriented play and rewards it.

09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.

Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.

And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene

Edited by - Sanishiver on 29 Sep 2008 04:25:09
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2008 :  15:30:28  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

Ashe, read carefully... this scroll is not about positive critics, or about "talking about how great 4E Realms is"... is only, and only, to talk about the positive things in the 4E Realms. This is clear, and simple, and is stated in the very first post.

About to be civil, Dr. Gregory House is very civil, too (well, sometimes.. But he is a kick in the lower parts, no matter how civil he is. And civility have to make sense, too. If I demand to eat watermelons, I want to eat watermelons, and not bananas, don´t matter how "civil" the bananas are offered to me.

I understand the point of everyone, but for rants about the 4E, we have a lot of scrolls. As Walker pointed in the beggining of this scroll, this one is intended to serve only watermelons, I mean,

quote:
...to encourage a discussion of just the things you see positively. I think we need a scroll like this were scribes, especially newer ones , can discuss the new realms freely and openly without being "called out", told they are wrong for liking it or even worse.


I´m not a new one, but I really want to eat some watermelons.



My apologies, it does indeed state that.



For what it is worth, I did want to include more in the title of the scroll, but they only allow so many characters!

And just to clarify for everyone, the intent isn't so much to hava a rah rah!! 4E FR is great scroll, just a place for what people like about it. I encourage a good discussion here, but would like to avoid vomit comparisons and the like if we can

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe

USA
387 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2008 :  01:02:37  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, it is hard to find stuff to like about it.


I tried. It wasn't easy.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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