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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 20:35:00
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Okay, I'm trying to explain this one and not succeeding.
-6800: The cities of Memnon and Artrimmar are founded in Memnonnar (modern Tethyr/Calimshan)
-307: Artrimmar is conquered by Tethyr and renamed Myratma.
-293: Calimaronn is conquered by Tethyr and renamed Ithmong.
-230: Calimshan retakes (and probably renames) Ithmong and Myratma.
-221: Tethyr retakes Ithmong.
-212: Tethyr retakes Myratma.
That in itself is clear. As I understand it, Ithmong was renamed Darromar when Haedrak III and Zaranda Star restored the Tethyrian monarchy. What is *not* clear is why a port on the coast of Lapaliiya is named Ithmong. Maybe it was founded by Tethyrian expatriates who left in or shortly after -230... but the city was retaken nine years later, so that's hardly enough time for enough people to leave to establish a new city. Any thoughts?
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 00:12:44
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There are lots of potential explanations for this ... but they would all be *ahem* made up. I think a query to Ed would be the best solution.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 00:28:48
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Considering Calimshan's expansionist policies, and their direct influence upon Lapaliya, it could be that the Lapaliyan City of Ithmong was built as a joint-effort of Calishites and Lapaliyans, much as Tashluta was. The city could have been named 'New Ithmong' (a popular naming convention by empires), and at a later time the 'New' was dropped, probably after the original Ithmong fell into Tethyrian hands.
If you consider how many variations of 'Alexander' were used by Alexander the Great when he named his cities (which must have been confusing as hell to the citizens of the empire), having just two cities with the same name doesn't seem so far-fetched.
I've found much more confounding things in the histories - like the fact that the ruins of Ammathtar have two completely different histories, and supposedly belonged to two different nations! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2008 07:27:44 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 03:38:11
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Markustay has it precisely correct in his post, above.
Both in origins, and the "New Ithmong" that was later dropped (although according to Ed's notes the name was actually "Ithmonglatarr" ["alglatarr" meaning "progeny of" in a Calishite dialect]).
Calimshan did conquer but did NOT rename the other Ithmong, which was indeed where the name of the port in Lapaliiya was derived from.
This is just one of the many, many simplifications that TSR made, that left "huh?" mysteries behind once Ed's explanations went away.
love to all,
THO |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 08:26:15
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Thank you, milady, for your confirmation and clarification. As may be apparent from my questions, I'm working on a *comprehensive* (read: nitpicky in its search for detail) timeline of the Realms, up to 1375 anyway, and my current subproject is city founding dates. As indicated here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5069) I was unable to find a founding date for Westgate earlier than the defeat of Kisonraathiisar in -349. I have been similarly unsuccessful in determining even general time frames for the settling of the Western Heartlands, particularly Baldur's Gate and Iriaebor. I would assume that these places were settled by westward migration from Westgate, but having some specific dates for Iriaebor and Baldur's Gate would help to provide a framework for the other settlements in the area. If you or Ed could enlighten me on this niggling little detail, it would be much appreciated. Thanks to you both in advance, and thanks to Ed for sharing his wondrous creation with the rest of us.
On a related note: Where do I find the information on Calimshan's settlement of/colonization of/influence on its southern neighbours? The particular cities in question are not detailed in the Shining South hardcover, and all of my 1st/2nd edition material is in storage in another city at the moment. Thank you all again for any enlightenment you can provide on this matter. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 Sep 2008 22:46:46 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 15:57:42
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I see to recall, at a long-ago (Milwaukee) GenCon seminar, Ed saying Baldur's Gate was founded by human seafarers sailing north from the Shining Sea area.
So that would make your assumption about B-G being settled by humans moving west from Westgate wrong (and leaves Iriaebor's settlement a big question mark, too).
But of course the lovely Lady Hooded has the pipeline to our Esteemed God of the Realms, who one hopes will provide the definitive reply for us all.
BB |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 22:57:51
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True... if B-G was settled by Amnians, Tethyrians, Calishites, or others sailing up the coast, then its founding date is wide open, given the duration of human habitation of Calimshan, and the other cities of the Western Heartlands (Triel, Elturel, Scornubel, Berdusk, Iriaebor, etc) could have been settled by immigration from either east or west, making their founding dates entirely open to conjecture without definitive answers from Ed and the Lady Hooded. I'm not averse to making it up, which is fortunate as it has become a necessity for me due to recent events. I have tentatively set the date of Westgate's founding by the dragon at -516 (the Year of Winds Westward, a prophetically appropriate year, I thought).
Either way, I look forward to a reply from our lovely Lady Hooded, until which time I will proceed with future history events. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 19 Sep 2008 02:40:51 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 04:11:05
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| Just another thought on the original Ithmong query... why would Calimshan keep the name "Ithmong" (being, as it is, derived from the name of an enemy general who bested them)? My alternative hypothesis (which, as it deviates from Ed's explanation, is *definitely* not canon) is that residents of Ithmong under initial Tethyrian rule left, frustrated with their nation's inability to form a stable and cohesive government, and migrated to Lapaliiya, founding Ithmonglatarr, whose name is derived from Chondathan(?), not Alzhedo. The sociology of my explanation seems more consistent, but the linguistics of Ed's also seems more plausible... I'll leave this to others to critique. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 07:48:04
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Most of the stuff about the southern regions Calimshan 'interacted' with can be found in Serpent Kingdoms, believe it or not (much of the Chultan penninsula is/was dominated by the Yua-ti).
There was a nice piece done concerning a brief war between Calimshan and Mulhorand, over some Sharran territory, long ago (although that is not canon, it makes loads of sense). It was in a thread at WotC by a guy who updated all of the Old Empires material for 3e (LEoF was adequate, but he got into all the details that tome didn't have the room for).
Can't find the thread anymore, but I put all the info into a word file (it was worth it - he put a lot of thought into stuff). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2008 07:48:55 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 09:19:23
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Any chance of getting a copy of that file by e-mail, Markustay? 
Oh... and while I'm thinking of it, do you recall where those conflicting descriptions of Ammathtar were? If not, nbd; I'm just curious. I can't refer to 95% of my 1E and 2E sources anyway; I only have the stuff I could download as PDF from the Wizards site. It's too bad they don't change up the files available; I'm tired of seeing the Maztica stuff there, and I'd love to be able to download FRA or the original Grey Box or Kara-Tur box. Anyway, hopefully some day soon I'll get the rest of my Realms hardcopy relocated to me... it would be nice to have a month to spend in Ed's basement too, as much as he might try to claim otherwise. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Sep 2008 09:36:20 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 03:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Oh... and while I'm thinking of it, do you recall where those conflicting descriptions of Ammathtar were?
Hey Jakk, I was just looking at the Ammathtar stuff and wrote up what I found in the scroll Markustay had opened about the city earlier. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2008 : 09:24:18
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| Thanks for the link! I hate not having my 1E/2E sources... [/whine] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 14:14:45
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No, I lost that in the fire, and I have not been able to find that thread again. The online copy (thread) was lost 'to the æthers' when they updated their (WotC) website to that horrid lime-green affair.
If ANYONE has that, I would truly appreciate a copy myself - it was VERY well thought-out and written. I could really use that 'small war' between Calimshan and Mulhorand for the project I am currently working on (I HATE to contradict other scribes' work, especially when it was so well done). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2013 14:16:13 |
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Ithmong in Tethyr and Lapaliiya
