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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 03:06:37
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Been busy Mark! Will try and e-mail you tonight.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 07:30:29
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New WIP of the Impiltur region.
Not sure if anyone is even interested in this anymore (a rather unsettling common phenomena off late... is it me, or are people who care about FR becoming rarer?), but I have been studying/comparing old maps with newer (3e+) ones, and I think a major mistake crept into the 3e ones (many, actually, but this is something new I've discovered just in this region) - I think the mountains below the Fire River are ALL part of the 'Earthspurs' - that both sides of that Gorge should be the same range. (The mountains north of Ithfel Pass are obviously the Galenas).
And that the mountains all to the west of those - less clearly defined on later maps - are all part of the 'Earthfast Mountains'. I think the tweaked geography on the 3e maps accidentally swallowed half the Earthspur range and gave it to the Earthfast range.
Also noticed another weirdness, from all the maps - Raven's Bluff is known as "The Gateway to the Vast", and yet, there are no roads leading from it to the Vast! 
In fact, as I layout roads on this maps, a lot of the 'tradeways' don't make any sense at all. Who the hell is Raven's Bluff trading with? Or do folks just stop their because they enjoy paying tariffs so much, and then just move on? Its bizarre. So, as part of what I do with these maps, I also tweak the roads - my assumption here being (as always) that the smaller regional maps are the ones with the best detail (closest to 'the truth'), and that the continental maps just give us a very basic idea of where things are and how they are laid out (including roads, which should define the flow of trade). The fact that the roads change almost completely from edition to edition helps me with this 'fudging'. So normally I never invent things whole-cloth, because there is enough uncertainty to take advantage of, but in the case of roads leaving Raven's Bluff, I have added a trail (a bit of a compromise) leading east and north into the Vast... after all, it is called "The Gateway to The Vast", and gates have to go somewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2013 16:27:04 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 17:44:13
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quote:
In fact, as I layout roads on this maps, a lot of the 'tradeways' don't make any sense at all. Who the hell is Raven's Bluff trading with? Or do folks just stop their because they enjoy paying tariffs so much, and then just move on? Its bizarre. So, as part of what I do with these maps, I also tweak the roads - my assumption here being (as always) that the smaller regional maps are the ones with the best detail (closest to 'the truth'), and that the continental maps just give us a very basic idea of where things are and how they are laid out (including roads, which should define the flow of trade). The fact that the roads change almost completely from edition to edition helps me with this 'fudging'. So normally I never invent things whole-cloth, because there is enough uncertainty to take advantage of, but in the case of roads leaving Raven's Bluff, I have added a trail (a bit of a compromise) leading east and north into the Vast... after all, it is called "The Gateway to The Vast", and gates have to go somewhere.
It seems to me from the Map of the Vast found on page 145 of The City of Ravens Bluff that goods would be transferred from the sea going ships from the Sea of Fallen Star to barges or some other ship more appropriate for river navigation and then be transported up river to Dragon Falls. It seems logical that some sort of river travel aided by magic or invention would be easier and/or safer and more efficient than a caravan through or around the mountains to get to the same location and Dragon Falls seems to be on some major trade routes.
The small section on page 151 indicates that the Fire River is largely placid and eludes to barge traffic on the river as well. Hope this helps.
just my 2 cents. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Edited by - Lothlos on 12 Nov 2013 18:14:34 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 18:24:08
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Goods were transported up and down the Fire River by barge. Logs were also floated down from forests to mills near Sarbreen. The City of Ravens Bluff page 3
Over a third of the Vast's agricultural exported produce came down the Fire River to Ravens Bluff. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Third Edition page 21
I also found these references if they help make sense of Trade Routes for your map. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 19:50:25
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@Lothlos:
I had assumed much the same (although there are at least two bridges over that river - on in Raven's Bluff and another just a tad east of RB). I figure the eastern bridge (which I nudged a bit further east to place it on the south side of Highbank Forest) was dwarf-built, by the kingdom of Rodilar, and is one of those 'high & mighty dwarven relics of ages past' (so yeah... barges can go under it).
At Dragon Falls there would be no such bridge - the humans there provide a ferry service to transport folk and goods across (they have a 'maid of the mist' thing going on there, but not nearly as awe-inspiring as Niagra). This would mean there is some sort of ridge running north-to-south across the eastern Vast (because water flows from a higher point out to sea), and its a great way of explaining why those settlements fall-out the way they do (all in a curved line).
Some History...
I also assumed that the Vast had at one time been completely covered with forest, and it appears I was right - the Orcs chopped most of it down. I'm picturing a centaur (and smaller fey) diaspora out of the Unapproachable East, as Mulhorand took over the Thayan plateaus (once a centaur homeland and ancient Fey Forest). The Mulan were known for being unkind to any non-Mulan (human or otherwise). So the centaurs would have migrated west, into The Vast/Impiltur region, which was once mostly forest. There is some indication of this by the appearance of a centaur tribe in that region in the Empires trilogy. When Thay broke from Mulhorand, they made a deal with the remaining centaurs - they could stay and work for them (as evidenced in the Red Magic novel), or could leave if they so desired, thus gaining them as allies against Mulhorand (who treated them harshly).
Then the Orcs came - probably also from the south and east (refugees from the Orcgate Wars, perhaps?) - and began to cut the trees and drive the centaurs further afield, or into the few tight pockets of forest where many of them probably still hide today. The elves in the region abandoned their few settlements on that side of The Nauthlis (Lis River) rather then fight a war of attrition with the prolific orcs. Thus the kingdom of Vastar was born, from the typical brutality of orcs under a strong leader.
After their first powerful leader (Ologh) perished, they had a short civil war (8 years) and then reunited briefly under Grimmerfang, before being destroyed by the combined might and magic of dwarves and elves (they created the Orcslayer Blades, who's secret is protected by dwarves of Earthfast today). Most of The Vastar orcs fled north and west, into the Galenas, and the lands of Thar (Vassa had only begun to come out from under the glacier at this time, and was still uninhabitable, for the most part).
The dwarves then formed the surface kingdom of Roldilar, with its capital at Sarbreen (modern-day Raven's Bluff). They ruled for several centuries, until the goblinoid threat once-again reared its ugly head. The remaining orcs, along with kobolds and goblins (whom the dwarves left alone), came under the sway of the Hobgoblin kingdom of Haekrukka (in Impiltur), along with a bugbears, ogres, and even gnolls in the area, and all fought a 'guerilla war' for years against the dwarves. By avoiding direct confrontation, they managed to whittle-away at the number of their enemies, which dwarves find very hard to replenish quickly. I also think the Tharan Orcs (under the Ogres) returned to help with the final battles, landing their black-sailed ships on the coast of the Vast (that part is me gluing-together stray bits of lore).
Eventually, as always, the dwarven kingdom also fell, and the once-proud dwarves of Robilar split into several small clans and sought their fortunes elsewhere (this would include the Orothiar dwarves of Damara), but a small group remained in the Urthvast (Earthfast) Mountains - those that would become known as the Earthfast dwarves, who survive 'till this day. With the power of the non-humans in the region broken, humans began to settle in both The Vast and Impiltur, and until something worse comes along, they are there to stay. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2013 22:59:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 22:51:08
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Yeah, here's the quote, from pg.144 0f The City of Raven's Bluff:
quote:
The deaths of many orcs in the mountains were ascribed to the great struggle for the throne of Overking (created by a monstrous orc known only as Ologh and left vacant upon his death in the jaws of the great Wyrm of the Peaks, the black dragon Iyrauroth).Warring factions among the orcs fought each other up and down Vastar for eight blood-soaked summers and winters, until Grimmerfang defeated (and ceremonially spitted, cooked, and ate) the last of his rivals, renaming Ologh's court of the Hollow Mountain "Mount Grimmerfang."
I figure Olagh was either an Orog (most likely), Ogrillon, or Tanarukk, IMO. What sources were you reading? Maybe I missed something. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2013 22:55:27 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 13:15:30
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Well, in the source I quoted, it alluded to Vastar (The Vast) being an old 'hunting ground' for dragons, before most of the humanoid races entered the region.
I figure the elves mostly settled the coast, but never moved far inland on that side of the Dragonreach... hmmmmm.... Dragonreach? Me thinks we may have stumbled upon the reason for the name. Anyhow, I'd probably have to check sources like Cormanthyr to confirm that. I know Ylraphon was an elven city, and there are likely other ruins along the coast as well.
As for dragons - The Moonsea was called 'The Dragon Sea' before some sort of meteoric event changed it shape. I know the 1e campaign guide refers to it thusly, and Ed has confirmed that that sea was not always called 'The Moonsea' (and from my own investigations, anything with the words 'moon' or 'star' in it have something to do with something falling out of the sky in the past).
So dragons ruled way up there, probably after the fall of Ostoria (or rather, the last remnants of Ostoria), and then the goblinoids (including ogres and gnolls) moved into the region - which may have been facilitated by the dragons (as either a food source or servants... or BOTH, knowing dragons). Then the dragon rule waned, and we have both an Ogre kingdom and the kingdom ruled by that lich (forget it and his name ATM) - I have a feeling there is much overlap there (Ogres ruled, then the lich took them over, and then after his fall the ogres took control again... with better weapons and tech).
Come to think of it, lots of liches also active in that far northern region as well. I guess when you are immune to cold, and want solitude, thats the place to go (just ask Superman.)
EDIT: Thanks for finding the quote. Now if Brian James would just come along and fill in-in the Moonsea/Vassa info I'm missing, I'd have a better picture. I know he touched upon that lich and his kingdom (Barze, or some such, IIRC). Lots of confusion with that stuff as well - the old adventure had him in one place, and then Rich Baker re-tooled the lore (read: changed it to suit his purposes) for his novel series. Regardless, we know he was highly active in the Moonsea north for some time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 13:19:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 13:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Cant remember what sources i was reading but even weirder one of the wearers of purple for the wyrmsmoke cell of the cult of the dragon (an orc no less) is named as the "Blood of Iyrauroth".
Looks like the factions in Vastar may have been down to draconic manipulation.
There was a lot of that going on in Red Hand of Doom as well - while not officially an FR adventure, the map is obviously lifted straight out of the northern Shaar region (the Elsir Vale IS Channath Vale!) I realize thats pretty far away (and removed) to use as an example, but we have other examples of dragons ruling goblinoids, so mating with them to produce half-dragons seems to be something they would also do (to act as a sort-of 'nobility' beneath the draconic kings). This may be a throw-back to the bad old days of dragon-rule in Faerûn. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 13:25:21 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 15:17:41
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The lich was Alokkair - I don't know much else about him, but I know several later authors/designers used him. His 1st appearance (that I know of) was in the 1e Lords of darkness source.
The kingdom of Hlontar was also in the region, somewhere on the western side of the Moonsea. Probably a pre-curser to the Zhents.
As for GK's thoughts on dragons and goblinoids - we seem to be always on the same page with much theoretical lore, probably because our interest overlap and we 'connect the same dots', as it were. Lore doesn't exist in vacuum, and everything relates to everything else - it is both the beauty of The Realms, and its albatross (because nothing anyone ever writes can ever account for everything, no matter who they are). Thats what makes the place so real - it is too deep for any one person to fully be able to know it all (accept, of course, for Ed Greenwood). There will always be some 'stray bit' a writer is unaware of.
But then, there is Candlekeep... the ultimate resource of folks with way too much time on their hands.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 15:18:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 17:37:01
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Both are mentioned in Lords of Darkness (1e), under the 'lich' heading. I think Brian James ran with some of that for his article (Monument of the Ancients), and Rich Baker as well in his Swords of the Moonsea series (although I don't think they ran in the same direction, lol).
For one thing, Alokkair's tomb seems to have been in two very different places. 
I like Alokkair, and I like Rich Baker (not for the same reasons  ), but I don't think he used him properly, Alokkair was a power in the Moonsea region at one time, but he should have been associated with the western kingdom of Hlontar, and not so much with Thar or whatever 'ancient kingdom' RB placed him in (which was based around Hulburg, naturally). Its been awhile since I read those books (but I did like them - the only 4e era books I enjoyed, to be honest, because they didn't feel like they were from 'some other period').
Maybe I am remembering all of that wrong... anyone else read that series?
EDIT:
Nevermind - it was a different lich entirely (I told you there were a LOT of liches that way!). The lich from RB's series was Aesperus, the King in Copper. The kingdom he ruled was Thentir. All of my posts about Alokkair should have read 'Aesperus'. Sorry for the confusion. Maybe all these liches hangout... maybe they like to go 'Barze hopping'.
Yeah... I went THERE.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 17:49:02 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 22:35:15
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what is the status of this project
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The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2013 : 02:39:42
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| Well, my portion is moving along. A severe formatting error late last week forced me to regress back to an earlier draft of Krash's compilation... which also meant that I needed to replace the updated content that was lost due to the error. One positive in all of this, though, is that I came across about a dozen old WotC threads that I'd archived about five years ago. I missed these in my compilations, so now these will be included as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2013 : 12:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlos
what is the status of this project
I haven't gotten any more input from Krash for the map, so I put it on hold again. Not forever - I'm just giving him some time to respond.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2013 : 12:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, my portion is moving along. A severe formatting error late last week forced me to regress back to an earlier draft of Krash's compilation... which also meant that I needed to replace the updated content that was lost due to the error. One positive in all of this, though, is that I came across about a dozen old WotC threads that I'd archived about five years ago. I missed these in my compilations, so now these will be included as well.
I'm glad I didn't wait for your mysterious email to appear! :) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 07:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlos
what is the status of this project
I haven't gotten any more input from Krash for the map, so I put it on hold again. Not forever - I'm just giving him some time to respond.
E-mailed you the other day. Happy to provide further input. What do you need?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 11:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, my portion is moving along. A severe formatting error late last week forced me to regress back to an earlier draft of Krash's compilation... which also meant that I needed to replace the updated content that was lost due to the error. One positive in all of this, though, is that I came across about a dozen old WotC threads that I'd archived about five years ago. I missed these in my compilations, so now these will be included as well.
I'm glad I didn't wait for your mysterious email to appear! :)
Probably for the best. I kind of rushed that one...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 14:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
E-mailed you the other day. Happy to provide further input. What do you need?
Been too busy to check my E-Mail for the past couple of days. Checked it last night (after reading this) and saw your suggestions/changes. Will work on those later today - thanks for the input.
I have to say, after working with Eric Boyd on a map, you are much more... relaxed... about stuff. 
I guess you know exactly what I mean, having had much experience with that yourself. Its like a verbal tug-O-war to agree on minute details ("can you shift that second hill two milimeters to the right?") lol
Both insanely rewarding and frustrating all at the same time.
He definitely pushed me to 'achieve more', and you can never fault anyone for something like that. Stuff I said "isn't possible" (because of the limitations of the 3e textures) I ended up doing anyway. It was a lot of fun.
For some reason, I expected much the same from you. Don't know why, but take that as a compliment (that I think of you the same way I think of EB). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 00:05:15
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That's why he's the gun game designer and RPG author and I'm the fan sidekick.
His attention to detail is what makes him so good.
There's not a day that passes where I don't spend at least 5 minutes in the Realms, but I realise that everyone has a life outside it!
Thanks for the help. Can't wait to see what you come up with.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 13:02:06
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FR is the center of my outside-of-work universe, just as it is central to my RPG universe.
So I spend 1/3 my day sleeping, 1/3 (or more) working, and the rest thinking about FR.
But sometimes I think of things FR-related at work, and sometimes I dream about FR, so I guess I do think about it all time. lol
And now I am picturing Eric Boyd as a circa 60's TV show Batman, and Krash wearing a Robin Suit: "Remember Robin, never swim without a buddy!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2013 13:09:07 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 21:54:21
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| I think about the Forgotten Realms off and on all day long |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:28:55
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Finally got back to this yesterday. Been so damn busy lately.
GK gave me a few new locales for Impiltur, and I added a couple of my own in Damara (after seeing Brian James had added at least three settlements on the 4e Vassa map). Its coming along nicely - I am hoping to have something completed for Christmas for everyone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 13:32:01 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
GK gave me a few new locales for Impiltur ...
Provided Krash is okay with this, could you send me the names for these locales as well, Markus?
I'll add them to Krash's compilation file -- which now includes a listing of notable Impilturan locations not otherwise referenced in the Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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On Impiltur...
