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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:50:56
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I'm working to reconcile how various magic effects reacted to Karsus' Folly (-339 The Year of Sundered Webs).
The death of Mystryl downed High Netheril, so there's precedent for Karsus' Folly to interrupt contemporary magic.
By The Year of Sundered Webs, we have:
-daemonfey and fey'ri imprisoned throughout the High Forest
-Imaskari planar barrier excluding the gods of Old Empires
-slumbering sarrukh liches in Oreme
-Calim & Memnon bound in the Calim Desert
-demon armies used by Narfell vs Raumathar
-Cormanthor's magic
-Aryselmalyr & Coryselmal's magic
-Evermeet's magic
I'm certain I've missed some other major magic at work in Faerūn, too.
How do other DMs or Realms fans view Karsus' Folly affect upon contemporary magic such as mentioned above? 
Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:05:33
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I think the conventional wisdom is that those spells reasserted themselves after the Weave came back online.  |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 19:07:48
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Well Karsus's Avatar, was "removed" form exsistance. My thought on this is that it is hidden, not lost. I dont think that Mystra would destroy a spell like that. She has a copy of it somewhere in her panties perhaps. Or pahaps Larloch holds it for her!
The other spells... well the weave is no longer acceceble like that. The deaps of the weave han been reduced to 9 instead of the old 12... 
So they are just not casteble! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 04:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well Karsus's Avatar, was "removed" form exsistance. My thought on this is that it is hidden, not lost. I dont think that Mystra would destroy a spell like that. She has a copy of it somewhere in her panties perhaps. Or pahaps Larloch holds it for her!
The other spells... well the weave is no longer acceceble like that. The deaps of the weave han been reduced to 9 instead of the old 12...
So they are just not casteble!
You don't think Mystra would destroy a spell that could end her very existence? I can't say I agree. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 04:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well Karsus's Avatar, was "removed" form exsistance. My thought on this is that it is hidden, not lost. I dont think that Mystra would destroy a spell like that. She has a copy of it somewhere in her panties perhaps. Or pahaps Larloch holds it for her!
The other spells... well the weave is no longer acceceble like that. The deaps of the weave han been reduced to 9 instead of the old 12...
So they are just not casteble!
You don't think Mystra would destroy a spell that could end her very existence? I can't say I agree.
I'm curious about this myself Nicolai. I'm not sure Mystra would want to keep such potentially destructive lore around in any capacity, lest it somehow finds its way into the hands of those who don't possess any particular reverence for the Lady of Mysteries.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 05:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well Karsus's Avatar, was "removed" form exsistance. My thought on this is that it is hidden, not lost. I dont think that Mystra would destroy a spell like that. She has a copy of it somewhere in her panties perhaps. Or pahaps Larloch holds it for her!
The other spells... well the weave is no longer acceceble like that. The deaps of the weave han been reduced to 9 instead of the old 12...
So they are just not casteble!
Thanks for responding, Nicolai!
More specifically, though, I wondered about the effects of the spells rather than casting the spells....
For example, if the Dlardrageths (per Hellgate Keep) remained awake the millenia of their stasis as part of their punishment, why didn't they sense the interruption of the spell binding them and escape? Similarly, why didn't the djen Calim and efreet Memnon escape the Calim Desert?  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:19:31
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| Now that there is no more weave, I wonder if Karsus' Avatar may be replicated in the form of a Ritual? Something as part of a PC's Demigod Epic Destiny perhaps?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 04 Sep 2008 13:20:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 19:43:08
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
More specifically, though, I wondered about the effects of the spells rather than casting the spells....
For example, if the Dlardrageths (per Hellgate Keep) remained awake the millenia of their stasis as part of their punishment, why didn't they sense the interruption of the spell binding them and escape? Similarly, why didn't the djen Calim and efreet Memnon escape the Calim Desert?
I don't think it's ever been stated how long the Weave was down; it could have been only a few seconds, or as long as a few minutes. For the spells you cite, you could say that the imprisoned folks didn't have time to do anything before the spells were back up and running -- perhaps the stasis effects were slow to fade, or the nastybads were conscious but had been in stasis for so long that that couldn't immediately move (kinda like waking up after a long, deep sleep), or something like that. You could even say that the spells, by their nature, created a sort of mini-Weave that they temporarily drew from -- the way a UPS will allow you to save documents and power down your computer, when the power goes out.
It's an issue I've pondered more than once, myself. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 19:54:11
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Thanks, Wooly. Those are all great ideas!
It may be simplest to claim elven high magic draws power from both Mystra's Weave and the power of the Seldarine (e.g. the Sundering). This allows the Seldarine to temporarily solely support those magic effects between Mystryl's death and Mystra's rebirth.
I don't know, though. A lot of undetailed chaos happened during Karsus' Folly....  |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 16:54:28
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Spells Stilled, Scribes:
Larlock holding Karsus's Avatar! Even if that isn't what he's
doing, that would explain why he has built up his power base
so destructive, would neatly tie in Ed's cryptic "Woody, You are
(ahem) very astute, and be so in character with Larloch. Being
an agent to take out dieties for Mystra that threated her existance (Cyric, Shar).
Also, I don't think it possible for Mystra to destoy Karsus's Avatar,
because that seems one of the greatest examples of spellcraft that
has ever existed outside Epic-level magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 17:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Spells Stilled, Scribes:
Larlock holding Karsus's Avatar! Even if that isn't what he's
doing, that would explain why he has built up his power base
so destructive, would neatly tie in Ed's cryptic "Woody, You are
(ahem) very astute, and be so in character with Larloch. Being
an agent to take out dieties for Mystra that threated her existance (Cyric, Shar).
Also, I don't think it possible for Mystra to destoy Karsus's Avatar,
because that seems one of the greatest examples of spellcraft that
has ever existed outside Epic-level magic.
Eh... I don't see Larloch as being a deific counterbalance. For one thing, no one can take out a deity without deific help. For another thing, even if you ignore the Sellplague, we see deites that threaten her existence -- particular Shar, who ultimately threatens everyone's existence -- not being touched.
I think that Larloch is either sitting on something directly (an imprisoned Elder Evil, perhaps), or he's watching the gateway that the imprisoned something wil eventually re-emerge from (kinda like Ubtao and Dendar).
As for Mystra destroying the spell Karsus's Avatar... Why wouldn't it be possible for her to destroy it? It doesn't matter how powerful the spell is -- spells don't exist if she doesn't want them to. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 20:51:22
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Spells stilled, Gerbal with Illusions of Grandeur:
Seeing as her portfolio is magic, I can't see her being able to act against
her portfolio, that destoying magic would be a crime against her since she is
supposed to nurture magic.
Ed would probably disagree with me, but I see the diety's portfolio(s?) as
being strict, and that all dieties are not able to act counter to them.
Like a cop who is dirty, they cease being a cop once they are caught by their
superiours. But then, who am I to make policy? I am probably wrong.
I do agree with the Elder Elemental angle you mentioned, I think its the planet big
Dragon whose head is supposed near Waterdeep. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 13:37:41
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| Actually, after Karsus' folly and her rebirth, Mystra put the limit on spell levels (per earlier editions), so I think she'd do just as Wooly suggested. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 19:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Spells stilled, Gerbal with Illusions of Grandeur:
Seeing as her portfolio is magic, I can't see her being able to act against
her portfolio, that destoying magic would be a crime against her since she is
supposed to nurture magic.
Ed would probably disagree with me, but I see the diety's portfolio(s?) as
being strict, and that all dieties are not able to act counter to them.
Like a cop who is dirty, they cease being a cop once they are caught by their
superiours. But then, who am I to make policy? I am probably wrong.
I do agree with the Elder Elemental angle you mentioned, I think its the planet big
Dragon whose head is supposed near Waterdeep.
When Karsus cast the spell, magic ceased. It stopped happening. No magic. Therefore, no portfolio. Removing that spell from existence would nurture magic, because it would keep magic from once more ceasing to exist.
Taking care of your portfolio does not preclude protecting it. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 14:47:12
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well thats one way of looking at it, Mystra destroying the spell is actualy doing what needs to be done. I dont however agree. I cant see her destroying it, simply because i think it would interest her too much, and she might even want to study the spell her self.
To me its like a hydrogen bomb. We have created something so powerful that it can wipe out entire countries, but instead of destroying every evedence of it, we study the thing.
It might be a poor comparinson but i hope you understand what I mean! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 15:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
To me its like a hydrogen bomb. We have created something so powerful that it can wipe out entire countries, but instead of destroying every evedence of it, we study the thing.
It might be a poor comparinson but i hope you understand what I mean!
Of course, just about every single person involved in the development of the H-bomb, regrets having ever brought it into existence.
Same goes for Alfred Nobel, who left all his money to start the Nobel Prizes, most notably the Nobel Peace Prize for his lifelong regret for inventing dynamite. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 19 Sep 2008 15:38:13 |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 16:13:04
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| I remember reading something in the old netheril boxset from the arcane age that mystra didnt exactly destroy the spell but in stead changed certain parts of the spells equation so that no mortal could ever cast it again or be able to figure out how to fix and cast it if they were to be able to cast that level of spell. I think it was also stated that she destroyed all known copies of it except one that she flung out to the edges of the known multiverse where no one could possible get their hands on it. So as seeing that i guess u could just consider it gone, though that makes me wonder about oghma would he have a copy of it still seeing as it was a written work and would mystra have stepped on his toes in order to get his copy as well or is it in his domain lost somewhere |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 19:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
well thats one way of looking at it, Mystra destroying the spell is actualy doing what needs to be done. I dont however agree. I cant see her destroying it, simply because i think it would interest her too much, and she might even want to study the spell her self.
To me its like a hydrogen bomb. We have created something so powerful that it can wipe out entire countries, but instead of destroying every evedence of it, we study the thing.
It might be a poor comparinson but i hope you understand what I mean!
Well that spell is the greatest danger to any god and its the responsibility of the goddess of magic to destroy it IMO.
The comparison with the hydrogen bomb is not really good, because that knowledge is now distibuted among the knowing people (and the internet prolly) and cant be made to disappear again ... unless we are stupid enough to use a few of them and go back to pre-electricity / stoneage culture. More than one person is in control of that particular "pandora's box" ... just like each and every one of us has his own key to open the box to release different evils upon the world. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Karsus' Folly & contemporary magic
