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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1086 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:10:01  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have now had an arguement with my DM concerning what is possible for one human wizard lvl 22.

Our mane debate have been about the possibility of bringing down the "City of Shade." How to do it, if it is indeed possible. I Said, that as long as it used magic to float, it would be very much possible be he on the othter hand not so sure. I know that he has the final word being DM and all, but his arguement; being a Mythal, is not good enough for me. Can someone please tell me, how, if possible. How do you bring that city cranshing into the desert???

We also talked about the possibility of actualy invading the Warlock's Crypt. I know that it is not possible to kill Mr. Shadow King, but having high powered clerics with all manner of turning and destruction of undead at their disposal, a lot of the undead minions he has under his command would simply crumble to dust... How is your, the sages, view on this???

And lastly... If a spell can resist Mordenkainens's Disjunktion, do you feel that it would resist Antimagic Field???

I know that it is up to my DM to deside on these matters, but I would very much like input on these matters from someone else.

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3080 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:29:36  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Few things:

Read the RotAW trilogy, where a group of Khelben, Laeral and other Chosen went to take down the city of Shade ... and failed. It is possible to take down the city, but to do so means bringing down the Mythallar. And, even with the demonic hordes invading Myth Drannor, the Mythallar wasn't completely gone. It is a very difficult task, one you may not be able to accomplish for another ten levels (or more) without getting a lot of major NPCs to help.

With regards to the Warlock's Crypt, remember he has had a lot of time to plan his defenses and, an army of clerics to kill his minions has probably occurred to him once or twice over the centuries. Expect him to have other support than just undead (maybe devils/demons, lycanthropes or even golems).

Mordenkainen's Disjunktion dispels spells and effects from items and other magic in its range. Antimagic fields prevents spells and effects from affecting those within range, so they are two completely different spells. Whereas Mordenkainen's is disrupting the magic to prevent it from working ever again, Antimagic is merely suppressing the magic from working as long as it's within the range of the spell. To answer your question, if you cast a spell that can resist MD, then you should probably get a caster level check to resist Antimagic Field. But, that is my personal opinion and not that of your DM. His word is law, not mine.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Hawkins
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USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:40:46  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just as a note, there is a difference between Mythals (the magic used to safeguard elven cities) and Mythallar (the magic used to keep Netherese cities afloat).

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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe

Brazil
146 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:43:06  Show Profile  Visit IngoDjan's Homepage  Click to see IngoDjan's MSN Messenger address Send IngoDjan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"...being a Mythal, is not good enough for me. Can someone please tell me, how, if possible. How do you bring that city cranshing into the desert???"

Is not a Mythalar?

Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32219 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:48:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A mythallar is more than one mage could handle.

As for taking on Larloch... First, how are you going to mass enough high level clerics? It takes some serious divine firepower to turn a lich -- and some powerful undead are immune to turning in some areas. It's easily possible (and quite likely) that Larloch has warded his area sufficiently to prevent his legions of undead from being turned.

Second, how are the clerics even going to be protected? 60+ liches is a very formidable force. These guys are all really high level mages, after all, plus they have all the advantages of being liches and whatever Larloch has done. They don't even have to show themselves to fight the clerics. Just creating walls of iron in the air over the clerics is going to be sufficient to thin the clerical ranks.

Third, Larloch has the support of the goddess of magic. He can do things that no other mages can, and it's entirely possible that Mystra will take a hand in defending him against a serious threat.

Fourth, Larloch has been around for centuries. He's used to dealing with all sorts of threats. He's got contingencies out the wazoo, because he's not only considered all sorts of threats, he's already faced them all.

If I was a DM, I'd do my best to dissuade you from going after Larloch. I'd allow you to try, but I'd also tell you to start thinking of your next character. Larloch is not someone to mess with.

What's the point of all this, anyway?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32219 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  16:50:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan

"...being a Mythal, is not good enough for me. Can someone please tell me, how, if possible. How do you bring that city cranshing into the desert???"

Is not a Mythalar?



A mythallar is a giant magical battery. Mythallar are power sources, and can be used to power quasi-magical items. Those quasi-magical items are fully magical inside the mythallar's area, but are non-magical outside of it.

A mythal is a large, living field of magic, acting as a shield and offering protection and other benefits to the people in its area.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Sep 2008 16:52:55
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1086 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  17:02:13  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trust me we are not going to go after larloch... He's simple just to powerful... for now! It's more the theoratical possibility.

As for the floating cities. I know that the Mythallar keeps them afloat, but I thought also that there was a Mythal around the thing to protect... say against Phearimms!

But then how do one destroy a Mythallar? Surely Antimagic Field and Mordenkainen's Disjunktion cant do it. And you cant touch it... How then?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  18:08:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMG, Warlock's Crypt has a Lychal, which is an undead-friendly version of a Mythal.

It puts out waves of Negative energy, 'healing' any undead within, and harming all living creatures (amongst other things).

Go ahead... take him on... make my day.

As for the Mythallar - I would say taking it out would be on the order of destroying an artifact. You would have to get to it (no easy task), then remove it (an even harder task), and then get it somehwere where you can destroy an artifact (and probably all die in the resulting explosion).

Of course, just removing it from the city would send the city plummeting to earth, but just how one goes about removing it is up to the DM .

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2008 18:10:54
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1086 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  20:02:06  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What happens when two mythallars touch one annother? Does it go BOOM or what happens...???
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  20:22:44  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're into the realm of the interactions of powerful magical fields and countermagics -- wards, banishments, spell shears -- which has been necessarily vague in print. In DMing this situation I'd bear in mind three points: that these are multi-levelled enchantments and unbinding them is more complex than casting any single spell; that their creators will have deliberately worked in protections against all but the most devious and involved dispellings (thus the fact that the flying cities didn't in fact crash down all the time); and that bringing one down will almost certainly involve discovering one or more magical secrets of some kind.

Edited by - Faraer on 01 Sep 2008 20:42:27
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1086 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  20:46:17  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have gathered that to destroy a Mythallar, one must be able to cancel very high powered magic. This howewer seem to more or less imporsible. How du you undo something that that old and powerful. I must then create a spell that simple destroys the weave in the surounding area... and that aint my thing!
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2008 :  21:27:46  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How would you besiege a city non-magically? You might study it, work out and attack its supply lines, understand the morale of its citizens, build weapons to defeat its walls, send in spies to stir up trouble, poison its wells. All those same kinds of dynamics apply to a complex magical entity such as a mythal or mythallar. You need subtlety and knowledge, not just power.

There is no 'simply' anything that will work in these situations. You ain't the only archmage who thought of that.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1086 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  17:02:07  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True... true!!!

But it will be pretty damn dificult to get into the cite without anyone notising it. I mean it's about what 1000-3000 ft. of altitude. IMO i think it is easier just to disintegrate the base of the city, or the top of the mountain with some spell or somthing than to infiltrate the city. Not your avarage rogue mission. But it all depends on the protections of the city and a lot of other factors. But to me it seemes mor likely to just blast it out of the sky, than take it slowly down from the inside.

Maybe ill write the Mythbuster team. They'll now how to get that bitch down... and fast!
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  17:11:36  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote

If 4E does one thing for the new players, I hope it would be to get rid of that kind of "what-if"/simulationist debates.


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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1577 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  17:35:06  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic


If 4E does one thing for the new players, I hope it would be to get rid of that kind of "what-if"/simulationist debates.


How would it do that?

'What if' questions and thought exercises exist in any field that has any truck with the imagination. Novel universes, alternate history, games, etc.

The only way I can see to remove the desire to know the answer to 'what if' questions from the Forgotten Realms is to remove everything associated with the imagination from the setting and game.

Which goal, I personally believe, they're doing an awesome job of achieving.

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3546 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  18:49:08  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic


If 4E does one thing for the new players, I hope it would be to get rid of that kind of "what-if"/simulationist debates.


How would it do that?

'What if' questions and thought exercises exist in any field that has any truck with the imagination. Novel universes, alternate history, games, etc.

The only way I can see to remove the desire to know the answer to 'what if' questions from the Forgotten Realms is to remove everything associated with the imagination from the setting and game.

Which goal, I personally believe, they're doing an awesome job of achieving.



Well in 4e if I understand correctly, their could very well be a ritual to bring down such a city. But , it would be up to the dm/gm to create an/or allow said ritual.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  18:59:42  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The only way I can see to remove the desire to know the answer to 'what if' questions from the Forgotten Realms is to remove everything associated with the imagination from the setting and game.




IME, imagination is more restricted with this mindset (debates about how the game-world internal logic works) than with any other one.


Edited by - Skeptic on 02 Sep 2008 19:00:18
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1577 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  21:09:05  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The only way I can see to remove the desire to know the answer to 'what if' questions from the Forgotten Realms is to remove everything associated with the imagination from the setting and game.




IME, imagination is more restricted with this mindset (debates about how the game-world internal logic works) than with any other one.


*Shrug*

I believe that meter, rhyme or other stylistic constraints don't limit the imagination of the poet, they challenge it. Sure, some beautiful works of art can be created by breaking those rules, but you have to know them before you break them.

I guess the same applies to thinking. Using logic to guide one's imagination doesn't limit it. It funnels it.

An 'infinite' number is impossible to imagine and hence not very impressive; but the number of grains of sand on the beech squared, however, is a really huge number. And because we can use some frame of reference to recognise it, it's somehow all the more impressive.

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Edited by - Icelander on 02 Sep 2008 21:18:48
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 02 Sep 2008 :  21:14:02  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Icelander. Besides, I doubt a new system of rules can effectively "kill off" what-if questions on the part of DMs/players/fans.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  00:44:29  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I believe that meter, rhyme or other stylistic constraints don't limit the imagination of the poet, they challenge it. Sure, some beautiful works of art can be created by breaking those rules, but you have to know them before you break them.



Wait a minute, I don't have a problem with all kinds of restrictions.

I'm the one saying that what matters is for the GM to come up with meaningful choices for players to make and that may require to restrict the possibilities.

Reasoning from the game-world internal logic is one specific approach that leads to many problems, including a limitation of players creativeness/imagination, usually because the GM has final word on such matters.


Edited by - Skeptic on 03 Sep 2008 00:47:15
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3080 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  01:20:52  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I believe that meter, rhyme or other stylistic constraints don't limit the imagination of the poet, they challenge it. Sure, some beautiful works of art can be created by breaking those rules, but you have to know them before you break them.



Wait a minute, I don't have a problem with all kinds of restrictions.

I'm the one saying that what matters is for the GM to come up with meaningful choices for players to make and that may require to restrict the possibilities.

Reasoning from the game-world internal logic is one specific approach that leads to many problems, including a limitation of players creativeness/imagination, usually because the GM has final word on such matters.




Which is your belief. While others see game-world logic as being a bit more freeing than that.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  03:55:20  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Which is your belief. While others see game-world logic as being a bit more freeing than that.



Yeah, I know the old saying "In the world of Dungeons and Dragons, you can do whatever is possible for your character to do, I'm only a referee.".

That's the mindset that gets us using Newton laws to answer players who want to take down the Shade Enclave. I understand that it is the classical way of handling "outside the rules" situations in D&D, but believe me, there is other ways that have been explored in indie RPGs that are much more enjoyable for players and less a headache for GMs.



Edited by - Skeptic on 03 Sep 2008 03:55:56
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  15:34:15  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

Yeah, I know the old saying "In the world of Dungeons and Dragons, you can do whatever is possible for your character to do, I'm only a referee.".

That's the mindset that gets us using Newton laws to answer players who want to take down the Shade Enclave.



Why do you say that?

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
317 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  16:27:59  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The only way I can see to remove the desire to know the answer to 'what if' questions from the Forgotten Realms is to remove everything associated with the imagination from the setting and game.




IME, imagination is more restricted with this mindset (debates about how the game-world internal logic works) than with any other one.





I disagree with your reasoning, as having some framework enables a discussion of possibility vs. impossibility. As far as I can see the other alternative is DM fiat which can leave some players unhappy, but Your View, My View.

Edited by - arry on 03 Sep 2008 16:30:25
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3546 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  16:34:42  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Which is your belief. While others see game-world logic as being a bit more freeing than that.



Yeah, I know the old saying "In the world of Dungeons and Dragons, you can do whatever is possible for your character to do, I'm only a referee.".

That's the mindset that gets us using Newton laws to answer players who want to take down the Shade Enclave. I understand that it is the classical way of handling "outside the rules" situations in D&D, but believe me, there is other ways that have been explored in indie RPGs that are much more enjoyable for players and less a headache for GMs.




Aha! There you go assuming GM is supposed to be headache-free!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3080 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2008 :  16:41:03  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

Yeah, I know the old saying "In the world of Dungeons and Dragons, you can do whatever is possible for your character to do, I'm only a referee.".

That's the mindset that gets us using Newton laws to answer players who want to take down the Shade Enclave.



Why do you say that?



I believe he's bringing up a post where Nicolai was looking for information on what would happen if he brought the Shade Enclave down.

Skeptic, that discussion was an answer to a question to a 'what if?' and I offered what I know about physics to help determine a portion of that question. For everything we do in our imagination, we need a frame of reference. Would it take two rounds for Shade to fall in Realms physics? Let's ask Ed. I don't know if gravity works the same as in the real world, but I'm assuming it's very similar. Likewise, there could be a number of other factors in bringing down a floating city.

We've agreed that we both have very different ideas on how the game should be run and what rules-set works best for each of us. I appreciate that you have your beliefs and have fun with the game in it's current incarnation. My post is just asking that you accept that others feel the same about their games.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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