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The Sage
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Posted - 09 Jul 2003 :  15:36:20  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was sitting in class tonight, thinking about Critical Hits.

I think it is a little flat and plain to simply apply the extra damage to the critical hit. Here is an alternate system I have been thinking about -

On a roll of 1d6

1-2: Equals an arm hit. This results in a -2 temporary penalty to Strength, and a free Disarm attempt with no Attack of Opportunity.

3-4: Equals a torso hit. This is normal extra damage.

--5: Equals a head hit. The target is then stunned for one round.

--6: Equals a leg hit. This results in a -2 temporary damage to Dexterity, a free trip attack with no Attack of Opportunity, and finally a -5 speed. If both legs hit are struck, then no movement which requires legs is allowed (though the character can still fly, levitate, etc).


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The Sage
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Posted - 09 Jul 2003 :  15:41:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh...I would appreciate your thoughts on this.




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Lord Rad
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Posted - 09 Jul 2003 :  17:07:25  Show Profile  Visit Lord Rad's Homepage  Click to see Lord Rad's MSN Messenger address Send Lord Rad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
::jots down Sage's Critial Hits table in campaign book::

Straight forward, simple to use... perfect. Reckon ill use that method in my campaign Thanks Sage

Lord Rad

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Yasraena
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Posted - 09 Jul 2003 :  19:29:47  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering that the D&D combat system (at least up to 2E) isn't based on location damage, but just overall damage, I think the straight x2 dmg for crits works just fine. It's simple and to the point.

I seem to remember an article in Dragon magazine about this as well with a couple of pages of charts that worked real well. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Sage, cool little chart, but not very realistic damage/penalty wise. Why no penalty for a torso hit? Is the head hit with or without a helmet? Only stunned for a round?
I have to admit that I'm fairly biased about this as I run Rolemaster, and I'm probably in the minority on this, but their crit charts are the best; the only crits worth using. (IMO)

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branmakmuffin
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Posted - 09 Jul 2003 :  19:43:42  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to use hit locations, GURPS has them made out pretty well. GURPS is good because it has special effects if you take damage over X% of hit points to the brain, for example.

Any easy solution would be to just roll on the GURPS hit location chart when a critical hit is made. I'd still do double damage. Otherwise, it'd be hard, if not impossible, to get the special effects using the GURPS rules with D&D hit points.

Edited by - branmakmuffin on 10 Jul 2003 18:04:24
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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  07:34:07  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, if there are no attacks of opportunity, then it would have to be from that opponent -- if the attacker is being threatened by another opponent, then that second enemy would have an attack of opportunity as normal.

Second, I think I'm inclined to agree with Yasraena. Of course, I've never had to deal with a combat round, much less on tabletop; but I think that if you try to be realistic about combat, it really slows things down.

Too bad, really, I'm a stickler for realism.

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The Sage
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  08:17:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I should point out, that this was only a (working) draft idea. Something that I was thinking about during class yesterday. I am currently busy refining the system, improving the damage and penalty factors involved.

I was only really tinkering with the idea, because I like realistic combat in my games, and while this system is simplistic to begin with, my current reworkings have sharpened some rough edges.

Yasraena said -
quote:
I have to admit that I'm fairly biased about this as I run Rolemaster, and I'm probably in the minority on this, but their crit charts are the best; the only crits worth using. (IMO)

I agree that those crit charts are good, but I still finding that they are lacking in several important areas, at least for me. I was really modelling this chart from a similar critical hit chart in the CBT game.


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The Sage
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  08:18:21  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
First of all, if there are no attacks of opportunity, then it would have to be from that opponent -- if the attacker is being threatened by another opponent, then that second enemy would have an attack of opportunity as normal.
I expected that to be the case. If the PC was not threatened at all, by any opponent then the entire method would be a little unrealistic.

This chart was never meant to rewrite the combat session, just to make it more interesting, for those who may find it too straight forward and simple.


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zemd
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  09:12:23  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i like the D&D x2 system. But i use a similar table for critical misses. If you roll a 1, i make the player roll an other dice. If that roll could have touched the creature, the player just loses his next attack. But if it would have missed, he rolls a D8. And the consequences can go from "you hit the closest creature" to "you throw your weapon". I try not to make lethal consequences.
I don't have a fixed table. Just a 1 is a minor consequence and a 8 a major one, i just imagine it.
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The Sage
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  10:06:17  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That sounds like an interesting alternative. Do your player's enjoy this method though?.


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zemd
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  10:31:43  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think so, after i use the same method with the NPCs.
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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  10:53:55  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a good idea. I'm surprised that Wizards didn't think of a 'critical miss' chance -- at the very least saying that on a natural 1 you provoke an attack of opportunity.

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The Sage
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  10:59:29  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was an alternate ruling in AD&D 2e published in an old Dragon magazine that made use of a similar 'miss-chance' method, but it received little support from then-TSR, so the idea was abandoned, and forgotten. I still have the issue here I think.


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AraznBlair
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  15:09:29  Show Profile  Visit AraznBlair's Homepage Send AraznBlair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the campaigns that I run we have a "Crit/Fumble" chart that we go by. Of course a natural 20 always hits but is it a critical. The player has to re-roll the d20 and if he makes another successful hit then he rolls 3d10 (3-30) to see what happens. These range from devastating wounds such as instant death to severing a finger. Some wounds will have a lasting affect such as continually losing HP until healed or the lose of an ability score. Most of the Crits have a minimum point of damage that must be made in order for the crit to take affect. How can you sever a hand of your opponent if you only deal 3pts of damage.

On the same note a natural 1 always misses. These are fumbles and when the player fumbles he has to roll 2d12. This score matches up to either the weapon flying from the hand in any one direction to disembowling a party member. There are even some fumbles that will require the opponent to make. An example of this is a player fumbles, rolls 2d12 with the result of stumbling into opponent causing the opponent to fumble as well.

We find that these variables add a little spice and the unknown to the game. Different Crits/Fumble charts are done up for malee and ranged weapons.


Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare
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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  15:15:37  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's interesting. But does it slow down the gameplay any?

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AraznBlair
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  15:46:50  Show Profile  Visit AraznBlair's Homepage Send AraznBlair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At first it did when everyone was getting use to it, but now it is almost expected. We just played 3E for the first time the other weekend and my group was upset that I wasn't using our Crit/Fumble chart. Told them that I wanted to check out the 3E crits first. I think that it has become unanimous to use our tables instead of the X2 used by 3E. It adds some realism to the game and allows players to envision the game more. Battles tend to become chaotic with all the fighting that goes on, that one never really knows where the next blow lands. I mean if you, the fighter, swing your sword at the Orcs head, roll a natural 20 and back it up with a 18, roll 3d10 and come up with a 4 (severs hand if a min of 8pts dmg rolled) does 10pts of dmg you take the hand of the orc off. Well the DM will say that as the fighter swung his sword the orc raised his hand in an attempt to either block the swing or make a swing of his own. The hand is then chopped off.

If a fighter fumbles and makes a corresponding chech that ends up disembowling a party member then the DM will explain this as the fighter not realizing where his friends are at and on a back swing spits open his friends stomach. (This actually happened in one of my campaings between a fighter and a druid. Needless to say that after the Druid was healed he never again ventured near the fighter during a fight or even when he had his weapon out. It seamed that everytime the fighter fumble the Druid was on the receiveing end.)

Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare
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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  16:08:42  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if it works alright, then could you post it here? The DMs would be sure to be interested, and might even use it themselves.

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Mournblade
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Posted - 10 Jul 2003 :  23:25:56  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the critical hit system needs to be put into perspective. SO many game systems have tried to come up with an accurate one, and they often make the combat system extremely heavy. The best one I found was the WARHAMMER one but that is more for entertainment value. Like Yasraena said there is no hit location component to the D&D combat system, so trying to design a critical hit system around it is difficult. The last time D&D did that was in the Weapons options book for D&D and that weapons options made the D&D combat system a DISASTER, for numerous reasons. (looking back) D&D also did it with the complete fighters guide, but those rules were pretty sorry, and seemed to be designed to sell a book. I think a simple critical hit system is fine. Overcomplicating one aspect of an ABSTRACT combat system tends to unbalance the scales.




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The Sage
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Posted - 11 Jul 2003 :  10:56:14  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I used the tables from Warhammer once, but I found that it made the combat session too much of a flashly/showy affair. That is why I ended up using the tables from the BattleTech game. It allowed for much more of an accurate determination in critical hits to opponents.

I am still working on my revised system. I'll post it when it is finished.


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The Sage
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Posted - 11 Jul 2003 :  10:58:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and AraznBlair, I would appreciate seeing this system you use, if you are willing to post it here. It sounds interesting.




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branmakmuffin
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Posted - 11 Jul 2003 :  18:10:54  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In accordance with Mourblade and to extend the notion:

Probably the best way is to just switch mechanics to a system that uses "realistic" critical hits and hit locations. Otherwise, it does just bog down the D20 combat system.
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The Sage
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Posted - 12 Jul 2003 :  01:52:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with that suggestion though is, that not everyone has the same interpretation on what constitutes a critical hit location.




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branmakmuffin
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Posted - 12 Jul 2003 :  06:45:54  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then they'll have to figure it out for themselves.

That same problem exists with a home-grown system, which has the additional disadvantage of "reinventing the wheel".
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The Sage
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Posted - 12 Jul 2003 :  07:49:31  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess that will have to do.


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AraznBlair
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Posted - 13 Jul 2003 :  00:02:54  Show Profile  Visit AraznBlair's Homepage Send AraznBlair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is the Critical/ Fumble charts that I use in my campaings. Feel free to adjust them as you see fit. The first set of points after the end of the crits are the minimum points needed to achieve said Crit. The second set of points are those that will be continually lost each round until the wound is taken care of.


3D10 Critical Result
3 Helm or Skull split: Helm- dazed 1d8 rds; Skull- unconscience
1d10 rds, 60% death 9 Pts 3 Pts
4 Leg cut off; 1-50% Right Leg; 51-00% Left Leg; Immobilized 8 Pts 4 Pts
5 Double Damage - -
6 Throat Damage- 35% mute for life, 10% Death 3 Pts 10 Pts
7 Elbow Smashed- arm useless; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 6 Pts
8 Heart Stabbed- 60% Death; 10pts lost to Constitution 8 Pts 10 Pts
9 Hand Damage- useless for 1d6 days; 35% Weapon hand 3 Pts -
10 Spinal Damage; 60% cripple for life, 30% death 10 Pts 5 Pts
11 Broken jaw, can not eat for 1 month; talk for 1.5 months 6 Pts 1 Pt
12 Brain Damage, lose 2pts Wisdom and Intelegence 7 Pts 3 Pts
13 Nose crushed/ broken 3 Pts -
14 Shoulder Broken- Can not use arm; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 6 Pts -
15 Facial Wound- 1d3 pts Charisma lost 3 Pts 1 Pt
16 Lung Damage, -4 to Constitution until healed 6 Pts 4 Pts
17 Kneecap Broken; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 7 Pts -
18 Arm(1-50%)/ Leg(51-00%) Broken; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 7 Pts -
19 Eye poked- 35% Blindness, 10% Death: 1-50% Left, 51-00%
Right; 3pts Charisma lost 3 Pts 2 Pts
20 Hand Severed; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 6 Pts 3 Pts
21 Rib cage ripped open/ smashed, DEAD 18 Pts Dead
22 Abdomen split open, intestines trailing 12 Pts 8 Pts
23 Foot Severed; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 6 Pts 3 Pts
24 Leg/Thigh cut- 30% tendon damage; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right 6 Pts 2 Pts
25 Uppercut to Groin- unable to stand 6 Pts 4 Pts
26 Ear Smashed/ severed; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Rigth 4 Pts -
27 Finger Severed- 1d4+1; 1-50% Left, 51-00 Right 4 Pts 1 Pt
28 Ankle Smashed/ Broken; 45% Tendon Dmg; 1-50% Left, 51-00%
Right 5 Pts -
29 Wrist Smashed/ Broken; 45% Tendon Dmg; 1-50% Left, 51-00%
Right 5 Pts -
30 Neck Sever 9 Pts Dead


1D10 Fumbles for Bows and Crossbows
1 String Breaks
2 Arrow/ Bolt breaks, Crossbow jammed for 2 rounds
3 Missfire, Strike nearest ally in line of fire
4 Just miss
5 Finger caught in string- 1 point of damage
6 Bow breaks (if magical- loses magic for 1d6 rounds
7 Drop weapon
8 Arrow/ Bolt breaks, strike self
9 Drop arrow/ bolt
10 Slip and shoots PC/NPC nearest target


1D6 Fumbles for Hand Thrown Weapns
1 Stumble- fall; Dex to retain weapon
2 Miss; strike nearest ally in line of fire
3 Just miss
4 Caught by overhead obstruction; 20% breakage
5 Hit self due to stumble; half damage
6 Entangle if possible- or #5


2D12 Fumbles for Malee Weapon
2 Fall on weapon; roll on crit chart
3 Balance lost- opponent gets free attack
4 Drop Weapon
5 Strike nearest person
6 Wild swing
7 Opponent pushes, Dex to stay on feet
8 Weapon thrown 1d4x10 feet- 1d4 direction
9 Weapon damage
10 Hit self; half damage
11 Slip; hit head, unconscience for 1d4 rounds
12 Stumble into opponents weapon for full damage
13 Fall, break arm; 1-50% Left, 51-00% Right
14 Weapon snag; 45% wrenched from hand
15 Stumble into person nearest to you- knock them off balance,
they roll for fumble
16 Hit head- Berserked for 1d8 rounds
17 Stumble into opponent, both knocked down- 30% chance of
damage from weapon
18 Fall- Dex to retain weapon
19 Hit weapon on solid object- weapon damaged
20 Stumble into opponents weapon for damage
21 Strike nearest ally
22 Lose balance, Dex to stay on feet
23 Same as #6
24 Hit nearest person beside target- Roll on Crit chart



Any feedback is appreciated.

Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare
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The Sage
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Posted - 13 Jul 2003 :  07:11:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is very specific AraznBlair. It covers nearly everything I was thinking about adding to my chart. I had considered, fingers, thumbs, and even toes, since some combatants can be barefoot. I really like the fumble categories as well.

There are however some percentage rates in your criticals section that I would adjust should I use a derivative of this chart. For example, you list -
quote:
10 Spinal Damage; 60% cripple for life, 30% death 10 Pts 5 Pts
However, there are specific types of damage to the spine which can be considered non-crippling. I realise that this is represented as the 60%-30% ratio, but shouldn't some types of damage to the back or spine be represented merely as some sort of temporary paralysis or stunning. Afterall it is possible to receive a broken back without being entirely crippled. If there is no specific damage done to the actual spinal cord, then there should be a percentage chance that the character only receives stunning or other lesser types of damage, perhaps represented as subdual.


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