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Dogar
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 04:41:54
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Recently the NWN DM of my game has taken our party into the lands of Zakhara. I'd never played the setting, and when my DM told me about it I realized that it was very very similar to Calimshan, the place that my character is from. I was curious what the connections was, so I asked my DM if he knew if there was any relation between the two lands. He didn't know, so I did a google search and learned that their languages are related, but beyond that I didn't find anything too helpful. I'm kinda guessing that Calishan would be a colony of Zakhara, but some concrete historical info would really appreciated so that I could flesh out my char's potential relation to Zakhara. Any info would be greatly appreciated!
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 08:33:24
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The Al-Qadim product line has never made any cultural links between Zakhara and Calimshan (or the rest of Faerūn for that matter). Zakhara was not part of the original Realms (both Ed's version, as well as the original grey box). The resemblances between Calimshan and Zakhara derive from their common inspiration, i.e., the mythical Arabia of the Thousand and One nights. Zakhara and Calimshan have no more historical or cultural links than Zakhara has with, say, the Bedine of Anauroch (Please note that my information is current as of the last products of 2nd edition only; perhaps 3rd edition has changed things a bit).
Calimshan and Zakhara only share flavor: they both have minarets, genies, evil sorcerers, corrupt and nobles pashas and caliphs, and, oh yes, harims [:-)], and some cross-references after it was decided to tag Zakhara on as a southern branch of the continent (although there are also references to Spelljammer, and a couple of the other settings).
I was not aware of any linguistic links, but I would explain that through the influence of the genies (Calimshan started out as a genie colony on the Prime Material Plane; genies have been closely associated with Zakhara for a long time), in that the languages of both Zakhara and Calimshan may be derived from the genie languages.
According to the last PDF-version of the Grand History of the Realms, first modern contact between Zakhara and Faerūn is dated 1099 DR.
I would say that a character from Calimshan would not have more significant than what a tourist would get from reading a brochure - Zakhara's belief system is vastly different from Faerūn's (it has a different pantheon, and the Zakharans' approach of religion is vastly different from that of Calimshan, and of Faerūn in general). The relationships between the various races (dwarves, elves, humans, but also goblins, orcs, etc.) is vastly different from Calimshan's. In fact, a Calishite may be more gaffe-prone in Zakhara than a non-Calishite, on account of being slightly but imperfectly familiar with a culture is sometimes worse than not being familiar with a culture at all (at least in the latter case, you know you're not in Kansas anymore, and you are more cautious, whereas a Calishite, lulled into a false sense of security by the superficial resemblances, may act, and expect people to act, as if he's in Calimshan, which could lead to, ahem, embarassing situations).  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 17:28:54
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There was mentioned a possible connection between the two in the Calimshan material.
I also believe that Tom Costa linked the two languages as having common origins in his excellent Speaking in Tongues Dragon Article. The language of the Bedine (Anauroch) is also related to these two.
In my over-history of Toril, I have it where the Dgen (Elemental Races) went to war in Zakhara, with the various Genie Lords vying for dominance. This war was started by Memnon, and he managed to oust the Djinn and their Dao allies (-7800 DR). Soon after memnon turns on his Marid allies and sends them packing as well - and they follow the other Dgen north and found two small kingdoms of their own. A thousand years after his victory 'something' drove Memnon from his own Kingdom, and he, too, went to Faerūn to the lands of Intrigue and founded a Realm just north of his ancient rival, Calim.
The era of Dgen Rule in Zakhara took place immediately following The scattering of Fate - when the human population was dispersed to the four winds (because of a foolish Caliph's wish).
The human scattering explains some of the other racial anomalies in the Realms, and why the Muhjari peoples (originally of Zakhara) settled in the shining lands and the Imaskar basin. Its also intersting to note that Halfings in Faerūn are first mentioned as being brought from Zakhara by the Dgen as slaves, long before the 'official' first sighting of them in Luiren - hence my supposition that Halflings on Toril originated in the south in Zakhara.
Also, the Dgen themselves fought together to take the land away from the Rakshasa Overlords who controlled it and them, but that is VERY ancient history (and ties into my Kara-Tur/Malatra stuff).
A lot of supposition (non-canon) built off what little facts and few hints we have. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2008 03:33:54 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 23:54:47
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Zakhara seems to have been placed on Toril solely to boost sales, with little thought originally put into the connection. Obviously it's very poor world-building to add a second, unRealmslike interpretation of such closely related material. 'Very very similar' is overstating the case, though, missing the fundamental difference in approach between Realms world-building and typical D&D Earth analogues.
Reinterpreting Faerūn's authentic Middle East-inspired lands as a colony of a crass interloper (though a good setting in its own right) wouldn't be sensible. |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Aug 2008 23:56:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 01:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Zakhara and Calimshan have no more historical or cultural links than Zakhara has with, say, the Bedine of Anauroch (Please note that my information is current as of the last products of 2nd edition only; perhaps 3rd edition has changed things a bit).
Note, the Bedine are the result of Zakharans that went through a portal to Anauroch.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 02:46:04
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If I recall correctly, Jeff Grubb went through Ed's ANAUROCH FR accessory and talked with Ed about which spells and Bedine elements could readily be used in the new "Arabian Adventures" setting (Al-Qadim), and (as Sage mentions) the link was then 'reverse-engineered' to loosely link Zakhara to Faerun (rather more adroitly than some of the other "chunks of real-world or Hollywood version thereof" elements were tied to Ed's root Realms).
love to all,
THO |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 15:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Zakhara and Calimshan have no more historical or cultural links than Zakhara has with, say, the Bedine of Anauroch (Please note that my information is current as of the last products of 2nd edition only; perhaps 3rd edition has changed things a bit).
Note, the Bedine are the result of Zakharans that went through a portal to Anauroch.
Ah I was unaware of that. Thanks for the info Sage. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 17:25:48
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Non-canon:
The portal they went through is one of the ones left-open by Fate, when she 'excised' all the sentient mortals from central zakhara, thousands of years ago.
Most of these portals will still function, but they have become buried and/or lost with time. They are a great way to get PCs back home to Faerūn after a Zakharan adventure (they are, of course, all one-way).
The portion about the Scattering of Fate is only canon in-as-much as it is part of Zakharan mythology - all else are my extrapolations on that and applying them to other known pieces of canon (like the Bedine). I present it here only as a suggestion of how another DM might use this in-game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dogar
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 03:35:17
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Wow, I got a much more in-depth response than I was expecting. Thanks to everyone who contributed!
I'm not as well versed in the world history as some of you are, but I think that a slight bit of reverse-engineering might be a good idea in this case. The similarities between the two lands seem just too striking to dismiss, and imo this includes cultural and values-based similarities that extend beyond "flavor". The idea of magical displacement sounds like a plausible explanation, so thanks for that idea Markustay!
By the way Faraer, could you possibly tell me a bit about the FR approach to world design, or possibly direct me to a site that deals with this subject? Everything I know about FR I learned from either NWN or from what unreliable scraps I found on google, so I don't really have a grasp on how a "Realms-like" design philosophy differs from standard D&D worlds. The general overviews I've read haven't really helped me with this. Thanks again all! |
Edited by - Dogar on 09 Aug 2008 07:00:54 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 06:47:17
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Zakhara is designed to pretty much directly recreate a kind of Orientalist Middle East, a feeling based on 20th-century Hollywood Arabia and other pop-culture versions of sources like the Thousand and One Nights. It's just transferred to a fantasy world with some of the names changed.
Calimshan and the Lake of Steam region are distinct invented lands partly inspired by the same part of our world (well, approximately, but that's another matter), but it's a loose, partial inspiration rather than an analogue. In other words, while in Al-Qadim players' Earth-based assumptions about, say, djinn will tend to be right, in the Realms they'll tend to be wrong or at least unreliable, so that players or readers will investigate and invest in the Realms qua the Realms, rather than in a directly echoed Earth.
The point isn't that one approach is better, but that it hurts the integrity and credibility of both to put them on the same planet. This is one of the Realms design principles Wizards has handled better than TSR, despite the odd Edwin and Eleanor. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 09:15:32
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Indeed.
I'll note further that Steven Schend went a long way toward revamping and updating Calimshan for Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea. His main contributions included making Calimshan less Arabian and more Turkish/Ottoman Empire [since AL-QADIM was already covering the Arabian material]. There's some Moorish Spain used as an influence too.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 21:11:52
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| One big difference between the two cultures (Calimshan and Zakhara) is in how they interact with the genie cultures. Zakhara tends to seek a common ground with them as equals, whereas in Calimshan the genies were the masters. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 12:44:30
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| But for some reason the Real World elements in the Realms seems far more out of place than they do in Zakhara. There is a better flow and combinations of the different elements in those areas that makes them work. At least for me. |
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Connections between Zakhara and Calimshan
