| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 04:47:59
|
Apropos of massive damage accumulation, I am trying to get my players to agree to use the Health rules from the Fantasy Flight Games Darkness & Dread book. In a nutshell: divide "health points" by three and then whittle them off, a layer at a time, with each lost layer impeding all activities, with cumulative penalties to all dice rolls. That, I think, is a better approximation of real combat. It's not the first arrow which kills you, it's the last, but every arrow before the last wounds you.
In novel after novel the hero takes large amounts of damage, but even on his or her "last legs," manages to strike a killing blow which someone in real life would have been too tired or too blood-drained to accomplish. It would be preferable, I think, to have fights in novels wind down to the They Live/"cripple fight" stage of exhaustion of the combatants, with fancy-schmancy combat feats extremely difficult to manage after a dozen rounds or so of hacking and slashing (or kicking and punching). Lest anyone think that would be an unheroic downer, I refer you to the fight between Mordred and Arthur at the end of John Boorman's Excalibur; that's no overhand coup de gras!
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 02 Jul 2008 05:17:03 |
 |
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 13:13:25
|
A workable rule of thumb is for a character's last hit points equal to their Con score to represent serious physical injury, much as in the pre-Saga Edition Star Wars Roleplaying Game's Wound Points/Vitality Points system.
Usually in these discussions people overestimate the gap in these respects between prose fiction and RPG play. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 15:12:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In a nutshell: divide "health points" by three and then whittle them off, a layer at a time, with each lost layer impeding all activities, with cumulative penalties to all dice rolls.
I've played in a game like that myself, which had bloodied (half hit points, -2 penalties to attack and AC), extremely injured (quarter hit points, -4 penalties to attack and AC), and grievously injured (tenth hit points, basically staggered).
'Twas a good mechanic for making game battles more realistic (though contradictory to my view of hit points, see above--I don't look at hit points as a measure of how many times you can be stabbed. I look at it was a measure of how many times you have to be stabbed AT before a mortal thrust).
Sadly, while I found it a better approximation of the fatigue that settles as battle passes, it wasn't terribly fun for the players at my table, so we didn't stick with it long.
Doesn't mean it can't work--if it works for you, it works for you! 
quote:
In novel after novel the hero takes large amounts of damage, but even on his or her "last legs," manages to strike a killing blow which someone in real life would have been too tired or too blood-drained to accomplish. It would be preferable, I think, to have fights in novels wind down to the They Live/"cripple fight" stage of exhaustion of the combatants, with fancy-schmancy combat feats extremely difficult to manage after a dozen rounds or so of hacking and slashing (or kicking and punching).
Totally agree!
In my experience, though, that makes for good cinema/literature and problems at the gaming table. Unless the players are really into the grim and gritty, of course--and some really are.
This is another mechanic that is missing from the game, but shouldn't be absent a novel, IMO. People get tired/fatigued after long periods of battle. Also, people in the game can heft their way through long fights in the heaviest armors, and people in light leathers get no fatigue-related benefits. Remember the classic fight in A Game of Thrones between the heavily armed/armored knight and the lightly clad scoundrel.
At the same time, if people get extremely tired and start suffering attack penalties in the game, then it can really, REALLY drag out a tabletop combat (which are, often, extremely quick things that don't give people much of a chance to get tired).
I have a house rule to reflect fatigue and carelessness that works like this: when the battle has passed a number of rounds per the DM's discretion (depending on environment, armor, etc.), everyone engaged in a long combat starts suffering a cumulative -1 per round to AC (you can also do a +1 to attack rolls, to reflect this same thing--not because it's more realistic, but because it's often easier to keep track of). As you fight on, your defense/technique starts to fall apart and you descend into hack-and-slash mode, and the risks get higher that you'll falter and suffer a mortal injury.
Not that this is terribly realistic (people should grow weary and careless at different rates, for instance), but it wraps up combats in a tabletop game faster, particularly when people can't seem to hit each other normally.
What would be better--if you're up to keeping track of the numbers--is to penalize ACs of creatures who grow fatigued as battle passes. Maybe they have a number of rounds equal to 5+constitution modifier, after which they start suffering -1's to AC. Or they inherit the fatigued status, then eventually exhausted. Or something.
And finally, getting back to the OP, this is one area in which novels can shine, but it's up to the individual discretion of the writer, as there aren't any inbuild mechanics for it. Thus, while writers can do battle fatigue, there aren't any *universal D&D rules* to handle it, so it's up to them how it takes place.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 17:57:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Where the rules are most useful as guidelines is with the magic system. It's helpful to know what spells you know, how many you can cast, and how you prepare them, etc. While melee fighters you can fudge (many of their abilities being up to your imagination regardless), wizards and other spellcasters should be consistent in what they can do throughout a book. Magic works differently in different settings, and if you're writing a D&D-related novel, you should use the D&D magic system appropriate to the setting you're using (3/3.5e for pre-1385 Realms, 4e for post-Spellplague Realms).
(The exception is, apparently, the division between 3e/4e--and I'm sure DMs will be able to construct 4e campaigns that utilize 3.5 rules, if they want to.)
When it comes to writing, IMO, it's most important to keep up on the way magic works.
I agree, Erik, with one coda--we have to have those rules available if we're expected to adhere to them.
I've a sorcerer character in Blackstaff Tower but the rules for the 4E sorcerer were only sketchily developed at the time I was writing the novel. What's in the novel is my conception and execution of her as an arcane spellcaster working from her gut (as per the original conception of sorcerer for D&D). I do have a rough idea of her level and abilities, but people shouldn't use her as an example of exactly how sorcerers operate in this edition because the rules were not solid when she was created.
As the former traffic/continuity cop of FR and a former game designer, it is important for characters to be consistent within a certain framework and to have a general benchmark for their power. THAT is the most important crossover I can add to this discussion--if you know/believe the characters to "be roughly 4th level" (i.e. not complete novices but not "name-level" characters or major heroes), that gives you an idea of what levels of spells you should limit your character to and not let her do more than that.
Steven
who knew Tsarra's levels when he wrote her for Blackstaff only to the extent that I knew what she couldn't do....
|
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
Edited by - Steven Schend on 02 Jul 2008 18:02:45 |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 19:19:10
|
A truly valuable insight indeed, my friend!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 08:29:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Steven ...
who knew Tsarra's levels when he wrote her for Blackstaff only to the extent that I knew what she couldn't do....
On the most basic level of this topic, that is the most important thing for a novel happening in a gaming world  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 06:09:01
|
"Former game designer," Steven? "Former"? (Why am I suddenly developing a severe headache? Why?) Is there a correlation between your "former" status and the fact that the falsely so-called "Player's Handbook" (4.New.Coke) is now selling on Amazon for slightly more than half its cover price? -- he asked rhetorically. *sigh* Not the place ... not the place....
Erik: I like the idea of tying fatigue in melee to CON. I may try this: a Fort save every round after (5 + CON bonus) rounds, DC equals the number of rounds of melee fought by the character or creature since the start of the encounter, with each failure adding a -1 penalty to everything. This would require A LOT of bookkeeping by me, but it would hammer home a mantram which I learned from a DM, way back when George Bush was the elected President of the United States: "Non-Fighters should not fight!", a mantram which I have taught to many players through the decades. To place it in a Realmsfiction setting, I think that Pharaun, whom I have already mentioned on this scroll, is a stellar example of a non-fighter who tries to avoid fighting whenever possible, and who even has a unique dancing sword to fight for him. (Those who have seen Ralph Bakshi's Wizards may allow themselves a smile at this time.)
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 22:23:39
|
Is that the one where the good guy wizard does something very mundane to defeat the evil one? *grin*
|
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2008 : 02:29:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Not the place ... not the place....
Hear hear! I would appreciate it if we could stick to the usefulness of mechanics for novels and leave the edition-bashing to other threads.
On that note, it is noncontroversial that Steve is an excellent designer and writer. I don't think anyone here would even think about claiming otherwise--I certainly wouldn't.
quote:
Erik: I like the idea of tying fatigue in melee to CON. I may try this: a Fort save every round after (5 + CON bonus) rounds, DC equals the number of rounds of melee fought by the character or creature since the start of the encounter, with each failure adding a -1 penalty to everything.
That sounds like a reasonable mechanic, and you've got my sympathies for having your battles last *forever* if everyone starts dropping at the same rate!
quote:
"Non-Fighters should not fight!", a mantram which I have taught to many players through the decades.
Hmm, y'know, I'm not sure I agree with that mantram. I personally love it when the terrible monster with one hit point has taken down everyone in the party and is going after the 1st level wizard with the dagger . . . and it's just a matter of whether he rolls high enough or not. 
Also, the whole "wizards can't know combat" thing is so very arbitrary, and Gygax-mechanic-designed. I don't see why knowing magic should limit your martial studies one bit. Gandalf was an awesome swordsman, recall.
Doesn't mean the "wizards-can't-fight" paradigm is bad--not one bit. I'm just saying it isn't the only interpretation out there. Just in D&D settings, that's the mechanic we go by. (And one of the points of the *magic system* that should be followed, or at least there should be good reason why your sorcerer is also a swordsman.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 00:04:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Is that the one where the good guy wizard does something very mundane to defeat the evil one? *grin*
Extremely 'very mundane!"
Erik: Besides Gandalf, there's also the Grey Mouser, but I think that sword-toting wizards are a distinct minority in literature. Steven Kuntz did point out in The Complete Book of Necromancers,, however, that it is very difficult to imagine any of Clark Ashton Smith's necromancers without their scimitars; still, while that's true, they weren't terribly effective with them: the most famous "palpable hit" one of them scored was against a size Large stationary mirror, if I recall correctly.
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 03:00:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Erik: Besides Gandalf, there's also the Grey Mouser, but I think that sword-toting wizards are a distinct minority in literature.
Let's not forget the late Robert Jordan's *OMG insane soon!* Rand al'Thor, who--aside from being basically the most powerful male wizard of his era--was pretty handy with a blade.
And all those bladesingers in the Realms.
I think it's helpful, in terms of writing, to keep in mind what characters are capable of at any given level. A 12th level character won't fight as well as a 12th level fighter if he's supposed to be a fighter-wizard, for instance, and the mechanics let us know what spells he should be able to cast, etc.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 04:10:54
|
| And of course Mouser was a prime example of not being able to pursue all of one's interests, since, between his thievery and talent with the Cat's Claw and Scalpel, he never really seemed to have time to become more than passingly skilled in the arcane arts, but then, that was part of the character's charm too. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 04:17:03
|
| Jamallo, your "06 Jul 2008 : 00:04:54" has been registered. Could you please stop re-posting it? I've had to remove about five other posts repeating your earlier reply. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jul 2008 04:18:10 |
|
|
|
IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 16:51:42
|
| It´s obvious that the writters can´t follow every rule ov the system, even why the system changes with the time, but they should have in mind that basic rule. I won´t read a book that a aprentice mage cast wish spell that he just learn. |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 18:13:28
|
Of course, as I said, it would be good if others bar wizards would become "movers and shakers", and I do not actually refer to fighter-types here.
BTW, speaking of "fighting wizards", clerics and similar classes can easily catch up with any fighter (well, at least in 3E they could) with a couple of spells. Speaking if somesuch, BTW II, the novels who include clerics or spellcasters caught in a fight do give a good impression why these classes can actually "get caught" here. For all their mighty and their slaying spells, they have to do it first: casting a spell or two. More often than not, the novels show that time can be of utmost importance here, something these casters regularly run out of before getting caught. Of course, it would be good to see an e.g. cleric who manages half a handful of spells and turn him-/herself into a veritable killing machine in the field of battle. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 18:35:10
|
TECHNICAL STUFF IRRELEVANT TO THIS LARGER SCROLL:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jamallo, your "06 Jul 2008 : 00:04:54" has been registered. Could you please stop re-posting it? I've had to remove about five other posts repeating your earlier reply.
Sorry, Sage. I had a lot of trouble using the system yesterday. Instead of being directed to a timeout page I was routed to one which had nothing at all below the standard material at the top of every page, and I couldn't get the delete message function to work, either. The problem was so long-standing that Erik was able to reply to me before I even got a confirmation of the first message, and I've been unable to PM you. *sigh* The post above is the one-and-only genuine, should-be-here post. I am trying to post a separate one (or have been trying) to post an entirely separate one about Jenna's arrival as a new author, but I'm trapped on the scroll which you or Alaundo started about her "Wilderness" book. *sigh* Hopefully today will be better, with less traffic to divert my puny telephonic quill.
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 23:42:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
If an author has to constrain himself to only doing things within the rules of the game, it could seriously hinder storytelling.
If following the rules of the game hinders storytelling, mightn't there be something wrong with the rules? After all, their purpose is to codify our collective storytelling efforts, so if their are inherently limiting to stories, they can't be performing their function correctly, can they?
Personally and for very selfish reasons, I don't want novel writers to worry too much about following D&D rules. That's largerly because I think D&D rules are overly gamist, implausible and detract from drama and storytelling.
But that doesn't mean that I don't want novelists to follow the rules, in a larger sense. I want the setting, as it's been described, to ring true. I want magic to be capable of similar things in similar conditions as it was in other novels, or, if not, I want an explantion why. I want physics to work like in the real world unless magic or another mystical force alters them. In other words, I want a frame of reference, a way to understand the actions of the characters and have them make sense to me.
I want an imaginary garden with real toads in it, in the wise words of a fantasy writer whose name I unfortunately can't recall.
What I don't want is poor historical research disguised as veracity, i.e. novelists who haven't ever handled a sword or worn armour (or even read reputable research about it) making incorrect assumptions about how combat with such equipment would work. Armour is not so heavy that people can barely move in it (if it was, no one would have worn it), full body leather armour worthy of the name is not as comfortable as clothing (it would weight over 20 lbs., which is heavier than a decent breastplate and maybe a bit of mail) and most two-handed weapons were not used in huge scything slashes without a thought to defence.
And I don't want characters who have already displayed a capacity to break the normal rules of their universe to suddenly forget this capacity when the story needs them limited again. Yes, that means that a wizard whom we know can teleport and talk to people over distance shouldn't suddenly have to ride like the wind for two days to warn someone of danger, at least not without a plausible explanation for why he can't use his powers to circumvent the need for a long ride.
Like a good poet uses the strict constraints set by literary traditions such as haikus to spur his creativity, not limit it, a good novelist uses the established facts about the setting he writes in to enhance the veracity of his writing. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 01:36:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If following the rules of the game hinders storytelling, mightn't there be something wrong with the rules? After all, their purpose is to codify our collective storytelling efforts, so if their are inherently limiting to stories, they can't be performing their function correctly, can they?
I think that's a really great point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 12:41:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
If an author has to constrain himself to only doing things within the rules of the game, it could seriously hinder storytelling.
If following the rules of the game hinders storytelling, mightn't there be something wrong with the rules? After all, their purpose is to codify our collective storytelling efforts, so if their are inherently limiting to stories, they can't be performing their function correctly, can they?
Personally and for very selfish reasons, I don't want novel writers to worry too much about following D&D rules. That's largerly because I think D&D rules are overly gamist, implausible and detract from drama and storytelling.
Then again D&D was always more of a role-playing game than a role-playing system. One of the reasons GURPS and Drakar och Demoner works better for me. But as a game D&D (TSR versions) works fine.
But I risk going into more or less forbidden territory here. |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 13:04:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If following the rules of the game hinders storytelling, mightn't there be something wrong with the rules? After all, their purpose is to codify our collective storytelling efforts, so if their are inherently limiting to stories, they can't be performing their function correctly, can they?
I think that's a really great point.
To quote Sir Humphrey Appleby, "yes... and no."
I agree that there is ample potential for the rules and the requirements of a good storyflow to conflict. I do not, however, think that it's a good idea to adapt the rules to fit the novels. Remember, that's how the AD&D community ended up with a couple of thousand spellfire-wielding dual-sword swinging bearded, pipe-smoking drow archmages of Bane who can kill a giant with a single hit. A random example, not based on any real cases that any of us may have heard of, you do understand .
I've been playing RPGs for 23 years now, and all that time I have seen and heard debates about D&D being an "unrealistic" game system, I have seen people pound huge articles to make it more realistic, and I have seen the Grand Old Man of D&D explain how it is possible that a 50-pound gnome (who happens to be a 10th-level fighter with 70 hit points armed with a apen-knife) can survive being pounded by a 400-pound ogre wielding a mid-sized tree-trunk. A hit is not a hit, you see, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is, and so on.
AD&D was not my favorite game mechanic (GURPS is), but it's the game system that I have used most in my roleplaying games, because it happened to be the best supported, by a couple of very nice worlds. Of course, you can convert game mechanics, but it tends to be a lot of upfront work (has anyone tried to convert Khelben Arunsun to a GURPS equivalent, recently?).
For pure storytelling, D&D is not a good system. But then again, no roleplaying system is perfect (or even very good) for pure storytelling, if it's realism that you're looking for. Then you are probably better off with pure freeform. It's just that... Well, I like my roleplaying bits, but there are moments when all I want out of a night's gaming is just blasting away at whatever moves, and do it at a good pace. And D&D works just fine for that, if you're familiar with the rules. I guess that if one wants perfect lockstep between the novels and the rules, there should not be any adaptations to the rules - there should be no game rules at all. Except that then, it would not be a game anymore, it'd be improvisation theatre (which is fin, too). But then you would no longer have that little thrill of rolling your saving throw against the red dragons fiery, burrito-fueled belch, and have that little thrill to get away with all but two of your hit points. You'd lose that bit of pure randomness, that neither DM nor player can control, and appeals to me, as a gamer.
I suppose that the point I am trying to make is that RPGs (and their rulesystems) and novels are basically separate things, with distinct objectives. Incidentally, IMHO, the predominance of novels over game that has afflicted D&D in general, and FR in particular, is not a good thing.
Novels are all about change - start, middle, finish, and somethings change in between. People die, lands get blasted, gods get laid off. A good gaming world requires a canvas that remains more stable, so as to allow players from around the globe to have a common reference with enough room to change things on their own through the results of their games. This is how I saw FR back in the nineties, a gaming world first, with all that entails, and some novels to support it. Most of those (like the Harper series, or the Spellfire) Nowadays, I am under the impression that the novels are predominant, and that epic, bigger stuff is dominant within the novels segment. WotC has come to view, I think, the gaming FR as an ancillary of the novel world. And when you've written yourself into several corners at once, well, then it's time for a reset, no? And thus 4th edition was born.  . And what a smash hit that has been.
Another point, in the rules-verus-novels debate is that the rules have become far, far more detailed, and therefore, far, far more restrictive. I have never really made the transition from 2nd edition to 3rd edition (let alone 3.5), but I have the impression that each individual character now has its own load of rules. When I picked up some novels recently (Unclean, I think), I was struck by the great amount of gaming jargon in it. There were several paragraphs dedicated to describing the main characters' class abilities (all prestige classes, I suppose), just because those classes are subject to rulesets that not every gamer may be familiar with (lots of crunch). In the days of 2nd edition, the basic rules were less restrictive: wizards memorize spells from spellbooks, and and do not cast healing spells; clerics pray for spells, do not throw fireballs, and crush people's skulls with blunt instruments, fighters are pre-packaged in metal for the dragons' enjoyment, and wield swords... You see what I mean. A Thayvian Griffonbattlesorcerer of the Order of the Scarlet Flame (Schools of Conjuration, Shadow, and Geometry) just happened to be a magic-user sitting on a griffon's back with a lot of monster summoning spells memorized, and a fancy membership card.
I am sure there was a point to this post, but I have been interrupted three times already, and I forgot all about it. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 16:01:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I agree that there is ample potential for the rules and the requirements of a good storyflow to conflict. I do not, however, think that it's a good idea to adapt the rules to fit the novels. Remember, that's how the AD&D community ended up with a couple of thousand spellfire-wielding dual-sword swinging bearded, pipe-smoking drow archmages of Bane who can kill a giant with a single hit. A random example, not based on any real cases that any of us may have heard of, you do understand .
No matter the rule system, it's the GM's job to lay groundrules for the campaign. If both the players and the GM want to play characters like that, there's no problem. If someone creates such a character when the other players have different expectations for the game or the GM doesn't want them, we have a communication problem, not a rule problem.
D&D, GURPS or any other system, it's never going to replace common sense and the ability to collectively agree what kind of campaign is desired.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
AD&D was not my favorite game mechanic (GURPS is), but it's the game system that I have used most in my roleplaying games, because it happened to be the best supported, by a couple of very nice worlds. Of course, you can convert game mechanics, but it tends to be a lot of upfront work (has anyone tried to convert Khelben Arunsun to a GURPS equivalent, recently?).
I've not needed Khelben's exact stats so far, but I don't think it would be a problem. Hell, I can run other high-level wizards on the fly with GURPS rules easily enough, so why should he give me problems?
It's not like figuring out his point cost needs to be done when he's encountered as an NPC.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I am sure there was a point to this post, but I have been interrupted three times already, and I forgot all about it.
If rambling old sages can't argue the finer points of obscure lore without either of them having a semblence of a point; then what the hell are we doing here?  |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Glantir
Acolyte
Germany
8 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 17:55:29
|
quote:
Orininally posted by ErikScottdeBie
From the perspective of one of the novel writers, the rules make a good guideline for keeping the characters consistent in certain ways, primarily spells and certain abilities.
And that's what I think is important. When I read a novel which is based in the FR universe I want to recognise that the story and the game mechanics are coherent. Of course it is not necessary to describe a combat round by round or things like that.
But I want characters casting spells which a) exist in the realms and b) are appropriate for their level of experience. I also demand that an author uses places, history, monsters and items as they are described in the rulebooks because this is what makes the novel a FR novel.
Besides that, I remember having read the phrase "And then he hit the monster critcally" in an older FR novel. I don't know which it is at the moment but I still know that I bursted into laughter  .
|
Edited by - Glantir on 12 Aug 2008 17:57:48 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Novels and game mechanics
