| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 17:57:07
|
Greetings all,
I have once again come across a situation that I could use your knowledge and thoughts in.
Towards the end of the Shadowdale module, while raiding the Twisted Tower, a fellow party member who is a mystic thurge (Orson, NG human male Wis3/Clr3/MyT6(Mystra)) cast a fireball in the dungeon. Unfortunately he killed 41 of the prisoners in the blast, as well as some undead. This information was hidden from the populace, and blame was placed upon the Banelar guardian.
Fast forward a couple of days. The dale has been won, Scyllua Darkhope defeated, and Lord Mourngrym has abdicated his throne, taking his Lady with him. One of the other party members, (Twilight, CG human female Rog6/Ftr4/Rgr2) a follower of Eilistraee, has claimed the pendant of Ashaba, ostensibly under the direction of Eilistraee herself with the intention of not only becoming the ruler of the dale, but of uniting the good aligned drow in the Land Under Shadow by making the tower into a temple of Eilistraee. She has the Leadership feat and her cohort is a cleric of Eilistraee.
Subsequent communion with the Lady of Mysteries on my character's (Elric Stormwind, NG male lesser assimar Clr7/Dis5 (Mystra))part revealed no possession of Twilight, and that indeed Eilistraee does have an interest in the tower. It also revealed that Mystra is extremely displeased with Orson as this is not the first time his irresponsible use of magic has killed innocents, to the point where Atonement is insufficent.
To this end when Elric counseled Orson (again) on the responsible use of magic and the first rule of the Mystran church. Orson admitted remorse over his actions and it was agreed that he would admit his responsiblity in the deaths of the dalesfolk, which he did later after a thanksgiving ceremony at the shrine of Mystra, (during which many became new converts to the faith, including some of the priests of Chauntea and Tymora, go Elric  ). Orson submitted to the will of the dalesfolk, which was that the new Lady of the Dale shall pass judgement as they were just common folk.
The new Lady of the Dale has decided that Orson shall be put to death for his transgression(s). Now comes my question; Shall Elric offer any aid to Orson, either through shelter, or to help him flee? Or should he stand by and do nothing? What is the stance of the church on secular power over their priests? Of course it probably depends on the Church, but I was wondering if there was anything in writing out there, that you can remember, that would help me make my (Elrics) decision. If it helps, Elric is not terribly fond of Orson, due to his "cast first, ask questions later" mentality, however he has proven to be a solid party member, despite this.
As always I thank you for your time.
|
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:10:24
|
Hmm, not sure I have full sense of it, however a follower of Eilistraee would not seek to become a ruler of a dale as best I can judge from the dogma, at best the character would defer to a Priestess as posible leader of a community (Twilight, CG human female Rog6/Ftr4/Rgr2) is not a Cleric and Divine ranks in ranger clearly not high.
Setting aside that Twilight likely should not be Lady of the Dale, IMO, if she follows the Dark Maiden only those that are seeking to do evil shall be killed or "totally evil in essense" errors in judgement can be atoned for, the stoping of evil or evil acts is one of the main teneats of Eilistraee.
Strangers are your friends, no Drow should die unless committing evil (this clearly to some extent has been broaden to other races), there is a way to a new life under the Great light where all can live in Peace. Like many of my Priestesses some choose some elements (and yes there are more) as a deciding factor.
The Lady of the Dale a devotee to Eilistraee, IMO, has options of requesting atonement or death (for an Evil character), with some flexiblity to advise a quest or exile, if not providing some more training in what the promiss is (Of course as already indicated I believe Twilight needs more training before she trys to rule in the name of Lady Silverhair).
I reserve my right to correct or expand on this post, was a surprise to see this question and I might have missed points that could change my opinion. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 05 Apr 2008 22:12:54 |
 |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 17:09:33
|
The only thing I can think of is simply this: while a character may have an 18 Intelligence and even an 18 Wisdom, does NOT mean that someone playing that character has that sort of genius at their disposal.
Having said that, I don't see the man being executed...banished yes...most definitely so.
I would advise that his contributions to the freeing of the dale be considered also...had he not helped free Shadowdale, those languishing in prison may very well have suffered far worse fates than dying beneath the immediate flames of a fireball.
The PRIMARY reason I don't think he should be killed is: a party member should rarely if ever hold the right to execute a fellow party member.
A solution should be found that doesn't deprive the player of his character...even if it means that character can no longer adventure with the group he has been with...his repeated lack of regard for others justifies that...but I don't think death is called for. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 18:23:24
|
| Certainly the Dalesfolk expect people to be tried for crimes, and I don't know anything about non-evil priesthoods (or people who know the local lord) trying to exempt themselves from that. I agree the sentence is uncharacteristically harsh (though people do uncharacteristic things in times of strife); as a companion but not friend of the condemned I might appeal for leniency but wouldn't become an outlaw to save him. A mage wouldn't get to 12th level in my campaign without either incinerating himself or learning how fireballs work more safely. |
|
|
|
dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 19:53:13
|
Thank you for your comments. Aye the punishment does seem harsh, but if what Mystra meant with "I won't allow another Sammaster", meaning his magic's about to go bye-bye, is true then I think he might welcome death.
But my question is not what should have happened, but rather what happens now? Would a religious institution in the realm consider it's clergy beyond/outside of secular authority and aid the clergy member accused of a crime? Or refuse to turn him over for trial? |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
|
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 01:35:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, not sure I have full sense of it, however a follower of Eilistraee would not seek to become a ruler of a dale as best I can judge from the dogma...
Really? I didn't see a problem with that, personally.
I agree that her sentence of death does seem a bit extreme, though. Punishment of some type seems appropriate, but death? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 04:28:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Thank you for your comments. Aye the punishment does seem harsh, but if what Mystra meant with "I won't allow another Sammaster", meaning his magic's about to go bye-bye, is true then I think he might welcome death.
But my question is not what should have happened, but rather what happens now? Would a religious institution in the realm consider it's clergy beyond/outside of secular authority and aid the clergy member accused of a crime? Or refuse to turn him over for trial?
In a panathist society each church has their own law but recognises the existanance of other secular and religious war. Most Realms folk believe in many deities and know their rules. As much as posible I do see the church exerting their own version of rules as much as posible as the best way to live/behave. If a church rules the chirch laws are considered forst, lessor laws either secular or other religions would only be considered if the ruling religion did not have a law for that. At least that is my best estimate. In most societies of the Realms it is unlikely that one religion fominates so greatly that secular or other religion would be so surpressed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 05:01:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, not sure I have full sense of it, however a follower of Eilistraee would not seek to become a ruler of a dale as best I can judge from the dogma...
Really? I didn't see a problem with that, personally.
I think the difference in interpertation is the word "seek", in that I consider it unlikely that a follower would not try to rule over a domain, that instead would lead the people/races if the people so desired. I see a follower rather making their own community rather then trying to rule an existing one should they want to be a leader, and yes followers of the Lady of the Dance clearly are and can be leaders. Just my view is that they would not seek to impose such leadership on existing communities.quote:
I agree that her sentence of death does seem a bit extreme, though. Punishment of some type seems appropriate, but death?
Here at least we agree *Smiles* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:17:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I see a follower rather making their own community rather then trying to rule an existing one should they want to be a leader, and yes followers of the Lady of the Dance clearly are and can be leaders. Just my view is that they would not seek to impose such leadership on existing communities.
I disagree--I don't think it's totally out of line, but I'll leave it at that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Apr 2008 15:18:00 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 18:18:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Would a religious institution in the realm consider it's clergy beyond/outside of secular authority and aid the clergy member accused of a crime?
I answered that. Does anyone else know anything about non-evil priesthoods trying to overrule civic justice outside theocracies? |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 19:34:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Would a religious institution in the realm consider it's clergy beyond/outside of secular authority and aid the clergy member accused of a crime?
I answered that. Does anyone else know anything about non-evil priesthoods trying to overrule civic justice outside theocracies?
Well, there is the pre-Banite ruled Zhentil Keep to consider. Or places such as Chondath, Sespech or Nempeth. I can easily see a good clergy, especially chaotic good, trying to overrule the civic justice of those areas. Especially if they weren't from the area and considered slavery to be evil.
I don't really see it happening in the Dales though, it's not as if the PC were innocent. They may go about things in a "If you prosecute the sentence in this harsh a manner then we'll take that into consideration the next time you ask us to help you." but I don't see them committing illegal acts.
Of course that's a general statement, any particular member of the clergy could go against the church's stance and commit the illegal act, or if there were a "firebrand" type leader of the clergy. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 20:54:46
|
| In any case, in my opinion it's a given that a person's decisions that are made when running a realm are at the very least informed by the faith or faiths they practice, even if their actual Church has nothing to do with those decisions. That's the nature of the beast, even in real life--if this particular Lady of Shadowdale is an effective ruler and the people are satisfied with her, I don't see why it's out of line for her to take into account her personal beliefs when making decisions for her Realm. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Apr 2008 20:55:16 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Church vs. State
