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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:18:47
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So, what exactly is this? It appears as a ruin on old 2e SS maps, and yet the text in the same book says its a bustling city!
So I figure the old map(s) got it wrong... even the one in the FR Atlas. So I move forward... and low and behold, I find it is indeed a city in the FRIA! So I move forward some more to 3e....
<sigh> The 3e maps show it as a ruin still.
So now I'm thinking that the new cartographer simply repeated the mistake when referencing the old maps. There is no reference to it that I can find in the 3e SS (even though it appears on both the map of Dambrath and the Map of Luiren), so that doesn't help at all.
Then I do a web search, and the only thing that looks promising is link which leads me to Brian's original pdf GhotR! Unfortunetly (of course) the link no longer works, but what it says is this -
quote:
Ammathtar is founded to facilitate trade between the hin and Arkaiun humans. .....
Ammathtar is destroyed by an evil force from deep inside th Southern ...
and that is all that it shows on the broken link. 
So, was there something in canon saying this city was destroyed, or was that just made up for some version of the GhotR?
I find it very odd that this city was written up as rather important, both mercantilely and politically, and then completely ignored for the 3e SS, and has been shown as a ruin on every single map released (except the digital one).
And, of course, I get no results from the search function here as well.
What Gives? Is this some sort of 'great mystery' or what? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 03:05:43
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Hmmm... I don't immediately recall any further references to Ammathtar anywhere else in the Realmslore.
Perhaps one of the designers themselves can shed a little light on this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 14:41:30
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Everything in the PDF is from a canon reference. The two timeline entries you cited are from the 3rd-Edition accessory Shining South p.150.
461 DR (Year of the Lissome Apprentice)
Ammathtar is founded to facilitate trade between the hin and
Arkaiun humans. [179290000]
636 DR (Year of the Luminous Tabard)
Ammathtar is destroyed by an evil force from deep inside the
Southern Lluirwood. (A beholder is responsible for the
destruction, but no one realizes it at the
time.) [179290000] |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 15:51:58
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Which completely invalidates the write-up for the city in the 2e SS.
Wow. 
Well, thank you for that info Brian, even though its not what I was hoping for.
Not at home right now, so I can't check the name, but there is a city very close to that one witha VERY similar name just on the other side of the border in Luiren. Since the original entry in 2e seemed to make the city out to be a trade city for both Dambrath and Luiren (large Hin popultaion), can I just assume that the entry was actually meant for that other city?
Like I said, I'm not near any sources ATM, so I'm not sure if the other one had anything on it in either the 2e or 3e sourcebooks for the region.
Thanks again for your responses, Brian and Sage.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2008 22:20:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 15:54:26
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See, that's part of the reason I made sure to download the free pdf while it was still available.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 22:32:39
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I have two different versions of the original, but I didn't even think to use the search function on them. 
And sadly, there was some lore on the other city (Ammathluir) as well. Both were cities that facilitated trade between Dambrath and Luiren, so perhaps I can still spin something useable out of the conflicting lore.
"A tale of two cities..."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 22:55:41
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According to Ed's notes, Ammathluir is still going strong.
Ammathtar is still ruined, but IS occupied and in use, year round, as a trade-moot (a rather rough, lawless place, Star Wars Cantina-style). Traders come, traders go, some merchants (and their gangs, who all work together for mutual defense) are always there.
(Note that I haven't asked The Creator about this, formally, merely consulted notes of his making that I have, as one of his players.)
love to all,
THO |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 07:30:46
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Thank you THO, wasn't expecting any sort of official ruling on this or anything - just trying to glue together some puzzle pieces that aren't being cooperative.
I got the basics worked out for what I can do with it - At first, the city is built by the Hin to trade with the Arkauins (and is occupied by both). The city is eventually destroyed by the Beholder (as per the GHotR) and the city sits as a ruin for years (and still appears that way on most maps in the Realms), and the Hin (and many Arkauins) flee to the town of Ammathluir. Eventually, the old town grows into a new city, and trade is re-established through it with Dambrath (now in Drow hands). Then the the "Duchess of the North", Tralia Falrith, rebuilds the fallen City as her 'provincial capital', and slowly begins to exert control over a good portion of the NW of Dambrath. When she made some 'ovetures' she shouldn't have, the city was once again reduced to ruin. (As it is shown on current maps). The Duchess is not dead of course, because she has her little 'Gov't in Exile' in Amluithar! There is the 'old town', where most of the Hin live, and the new section where the exiled Crinti live (and the Arkauins live in both).
It helped quite a bit that the city was written up for Dambrath in one SS, and then for Luiren in the other one - sometimes you can take a mistake and spin it into something good.
I have it fleshed out quite a bit more (her disasterous bid for power) in my head, but I'll save that for a new series of CK articles I'm contemplating, to compliment some of my maps - "Cities of Intereest:"
Just as soon as I finish the one I've been working on for four months.
BTW, Brian, I did not mean to intimate that you had "just made stuff up" for the official GhotR; sorry if it sounded bad. I didn't think to go back that far in the timelines, considering the city seemed to be a bustling trade center in 1360 DR (or whenever the 1e SS was dated at). Next time I'll be more dilligent in my research before saying something stupid. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2008 18:40:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 08:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have it fleshed out quite a bit more (her disasterous bid for power) in my head, but I'll save that for a new series of CK articles I'm contemplating, to compliment some of my maps - "Cities of Intereest:"
Sounds good. And I'm sure Alaundo would like to get his grubby hands on some new Realmslore for the archives of Candlekeep.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 09:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have it fleshed out quite a bit more (her disasterous bid for power) in my head, but I'll save that for a new series of CK articles I'm contemplating, to compliment some of my maps - "Cities of Intereest:"
Sounds good. And I'm sure Alaundo would like to get his grubby hands on some new Realmslore for the archives of Candlekeep.
Well met
It goes without saying, Sage  Indeed, I always look forward to word from ye, Markustay. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2008 : 03:06:12
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I've just been looking at the Ammathtar lore myself as a sidelight to my research on Hazuth and the 14th century bluewood trade. I turned up this scroll, and thought I'd revive it to share what I've found.
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The sources I have open on my desk are: FR 16: The Shining South by Tom Prusa, a 2E supplement released in 1993 and reflecting lore current, I believe, around 1367 DR; Shining South by Thomas M. Reid a 3.5 supplement reflecting lore current to 1373 DR; and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide from this year by Cordell, Greenwood, and Sims, current as of 1479. I also have maps from each of these sources.
So, here's what I've got.
First, be careful to distinguish Ammathtar, the city (or ruin) in Dambrath, from Ammathluir, the halfling town in Luiren. They lay about 60 miles apart, on opposite sides of the forest called the Southern Lluirwood in 3E and 4E sources and Granuin Forest in 2E sources.
I wish I could figure out how to do a chart in board code!
Ammathtar appears this way on the maps:
2E Dambrath interior map (p. 23, FR 16): indicated as a ruin lying directly on the main road between Delzimmer and Cathyr.
2E Luiren interior map: Not indicated by name, but there's an unlabeled ruin in it's approximate position when compared to the Dambrath map (though the Delzimmer/Cathyr Road isn't delineated).
2E fold out map (FR 16): eh, I can't actually tell because I've got the .pdf and it's on a crease.
3E Dambrath map (p. 95, Reid's SS): indicated as a ruin perhaps forty miles east of the Delzimmer/Cathyr Road in the fringes of the Southern Lluirwood.
3E Luiren map (p. 143, Reid's SS): as above, though whereas the city/ruin was close to due west of the Luiren Ammathluier in the 2E source, here it's considerably south of west.
4E fold out map (FRCG): indicated as a ruin, in a position very close to that shown on the 3E map. (Ammathluir is now beneath the waves of the Gulf of Luiren.)
Ammathtar appears this way in the lore:
2E source: In the Dambrath section, the city is given a full write up, perhaps second only to the capital in terms of wordcount. It's described as a trade city ruled by a powerful Crinti duchess (who also receives a write up in the NPC section). It has a permanent population of around 10,000, "the largest horse pens in the nation," and is described as having critical roles in defense and importing.
3E source: Ammathtar is mentioned in three places that I could find. In the "Dungeons of the Shining South" section at p. 77, it's described as having been founded as a trade city "near the caravan road" in eastern Dambrath. The entry goes on to state that it was "mysteriously wiped out overnight."
These events aren't mentioned in the Dambrath entry, but instead are treated in the timeline section of the Luiren entry (pp. 103-104) with notes on the founding in 461 and the destruction (by a beholder) in 636. [note that this is the information Brian R. James refers to upthread].
4E source: The only mention of Ammathtar I've come across so far is in the Southern Lluirwood sidebar on p. 129. Here, it's described as the ruins of a "halfling city...destroyed almost a millenium ago" by the beholder Lyxedda.
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Ammathtar?
