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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 02 Jan 2008 :  16:47:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm posting this here, in hopes that one of the designers will come along with an answer...

I was just looking over the Roll of Years, when I happened to notice that there are two years with the exact same name. I checked the original file, still located on the Wizards website (if you know the URL), and saw that the error was in that file -- so it wasn't something I did!

The error is also in the Forgotten Realms Calendar Tool, so it appears to have remained uncaught.

Anyway, years 107 and 1173 both have the same name: The Year of the Fledglings.

I'm hoping Steven or someone can explain this apparent error.

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Fillow
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Posted - 02 Jan 2008 :  18:05:13  Show Profile  Visit Fillow's Homepage  Send Fillow a Yahoo! Message Send Fillow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw near the same :
142 : Year of the Prowling Naga
1176 : Year of Prowling Naga

But there, Contrary in the years about which Wooly spoke, "the" makes the difference between the both !
Was it voluntary?

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HunterOfStorms
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Australia
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Posted - 04 Jan 2008 :  03:25:07  Show Profile  Visit HunterOfStorms's Homepage Send HunterOfStorms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is also a year name missing. (This is from the original .rtf file from years ago, but the error appears to have been carried over into the FR Calendar online tool at least.)

977 - right between the Year of the Slaying Spells (976) and the Year of the Hooded Rogue (978)

I would love to know what the missing year is called. Although making it up is still an option.

I've been meaning to chase this up for a while, but this thread seems like the perfect opportunity, now that I'm reminded.

Hunter
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Jan 2008 :  05:38:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to the old FAQ located elsewhere on the main site, 977 is the Year of Swordforging.

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HunterOfStorms
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Posted - 04 Jan 2008 :  05:47:56  Show Profile  Visit HunterOfStorms's Homepage Send HunterOfStorms a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Wooly, that's one mystery solved :)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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1091 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2008 :  14:39:40  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good catch Wooly. The year names are duplicated in my copies as well. If I needed to pick one as the "correct" year I would go with 1173 DR since only it is included in the Grand History (but I'm biased) :)

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Jan 2008 :  15:13:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Good catch Wooly. The year names are duplicated in my copies as well. If I needed to pick one as the "correct" year I would go with 1173 DR since only it is included in the Grand History (but I'm biased) :)





I've written a simple HTML page with the Roll of Years on it in both alphabetical and chronological listing. I was looking at it, and just happened to catch that duplicated name.

Whichever year is correctly named, it still leaves the other one lacking a name.

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Brian R. James
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Posted - 05 Jan 2008 :  01:20:34  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like star systems, I follow the philosophy that unnamed years should be named after their discoverer... so 107 DR is henceforth known as Year of the Wooly Rupert.

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George Krashos
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Posted - 05 Jan 2008 :  03:10:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could always use some of these year names that have been published in realmslore but not included in the Roll of Years:

Year of the Black Shield – Polyhedron #79, p.7
Year of the Snarling Snowleopard – Polyhedron #80, p.6
Year of the Black Axe – Polyhedron #81, p.8
Year of the Black Banner – Polyhedron #82, p.22
Year of Rising Winds – Polyhedron #83, p.29
Year of Falling Stones – Polyhedron #84, p.19
Year of the Torch – Polyhedron #87, p.8
Year of the Unicorn – Polyhedron #86, p.17
Year of Many Hawks – Polyhedron #85, p.6
Year of the Hunting Hawk – Halls of the High King, p.2
Year of Tattered Banners - FR11 Dwarves Deep, p.59

Also look at Ed's "Annotated Elminster", pgs.310-311 for a discussion on year names, apocryphal or otherwise.

-- George Krashos

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Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jan 2008 03:10:55
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Markustay
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Posted - 05 Jan 2008 :  19:22:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm really loving Year of the Wooly Rupert!

Anyone not familiar with this site who comes across it will be like "WTF?"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
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Posted - 14 Jan 2008 :  19:23:20  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm really loving Year of the Wooly Rupert!

Anyone not familiar with this site who comes across it will be like "WTF?"



'Year of the Space Hamster' would work pretty well, too!

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Hawkins
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Posted - 14 Jan 2008 :  19:58:15  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm really loving Year of the Wooly Rupert!

Anyone not familiar with this site who comes across it will be like "WTF?"

'Year of the Space Hamster' would work pretty well, too!

I like 'Year of the Space Hamster' as well. I was actually thinking about that this weekend.

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Steven Schend
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Posted - 15 Jan 2008 :  04:28:14  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm posting this here, in hopes that one of the designers will come along with an answer...

I was just looking over the Roll of Years, when I happened to notice that there are two years with the exact same name. I checked the original file, still located on the Wizards website (if you know the URL), and saw that the error was in that file -- so it wasn't something I did!

The error is also in the Forgotten Realms Calendar Tool, so it appears to have remained uncaught.

Anyway, years 107 and 1173 both have the same name: The Year of the Fledglings.

I'm hoping Steven or someone can explain this apparent error.






Damn. Thought I'd caught all of those back in 1998 when I compiled and filled in the table of years for the book department and the FR group. Funny how things like that slip by two proofreaders and an anal-retentive editor despite the best of efforts....sigh....

Well, I've no excuse other than human error. Sorry about that, folks.

As to how to fix it, I'm loathe to say which year name gets invalidated, as I no longer have my notes saying which year names came from which references (or Ed's chapter starters or toss-off book quotes in a Dragon magazine article of old). My best suggestion is to use a year name of your own for the 107 reference (because it's NOT in the GHotR). Secondly is George's suggestion (and I'd push up the Year of Many Hawks, simply because it's in keeping with the bird motif of the year name mixup and I like it. )

Steven
who apologizes unreservedly for any emotional distress his comments may have caused....and who loves John Cleese for being able to deliver lines like that with a straight face....

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com

Edited by - Steven Schend on 15 Jan 2008 16:15:55
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Steven Schend
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Posted - 15 Jan 2008 :  04:30:46  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow

I saw near the same :
142 : Year of the Prowling Naga
1176 : Year of Prowling Naga

But there, Contrary in the years about which Wooly spoke, "the" makes the difference between the both !
Was it voluntary?



Or it could be that one of them is a misread and a hasty scribe didn't read the "Year of the Growling Naga" correctly?

Steven
who's all for blaming tired and clumsy scribes for messing up a detail-oriented project....especially when he was one of them...

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 May 2008 :  21:54:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Resurrecting an old topic...

I was looking more closely at the Roll of Years today. And I found another couple of oddballs.

In the original Roll of Years file, the year -645 is listed twice, as both the Year of Eternal Amber and the Year of Maleficent Counsel. The Calendar utility, oddly, has neither name. The pdf version of the Grand History (the last pre-print version) has an event happening in the Year of Eternal Amber, and uses that name on the Roll of Years in that file. There is no listed event for that year in the print version.

So I'd go with the Year of Eternal Amber.

Year 994 in the original Roll of Years file also has two names, Year of the Unanswered Riddle and Year of the Weary Scribe. The latter name appears in both in the Roll in the pdf Grand History, and in the Calendar utility. Neither version of the Grand History has an event in that year.

I'd go with the Year of the Weary Scribe.

As noted earlier, we have two years with the name the Year of the Fledglings, 107 and 1173. Both years have corresponding events in the printed Grand History.

I do like Steven's suggestion of using the Year of Many Hawks for 107, though the fact that both years by the name have printed events makes renaming the year a bit tricky.

Also noted earlier was the Year of the Prowling Naga (142) and the Year of Prowling Naga (1176). The Year of the Prowling Naga has an event listed in the printed Grand History (and the pdf).

With this one, I'd steal Steven's idea and make 1176 be the Year of Growling Naga. Or maybe the Year of the Snarling Snowleopard, because that does sound really cool, and Growling Naga really sounds like there should be a "the" in front of it.

I recently made a neater HTML version of the Roll, and Big Al expressed an interest in it, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with the apparent errors.

Comments?

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ShadezofDis
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  06:02:01  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Growling Naga? Really?

I mean. .. I'm already thinking about were-naga or half-something naga but. . . come on. . . Year of the Hissing Naga maybe?

I like the Year of the Space Hamster too.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  16:20:18  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, maybe some nagas like to growl as well as prowl!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 May 2008 16:23:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  17:11:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis

Growling Naga? Really?

I mean. .. I'm already thinking about were-naga or half-something naga but. . . come on. . . Year of the Hissing Naga maybe?

I like the Year of the Space Hamster too.



Well, the biggest point in favor of Growling Naga is the fact that the name is just a single letter off from Prowling Naga -- so the original entry could have been something some scribe misheard/misread, as Steven Schend suggested.

Some of the year names, like the Torpid Arms(45) or the Creeping Fang(1305), are a bit odd. But I don't think Growling Naga is really that much of a stretch.

I do like the idea of a Year of the Space Hamster, but that is really pushing it. I'd happily slide that name in there somewhere, but it would stand out. After all, part of why I chose the name Wooly Rupert is because of the silliness of the entire Giant Space Hamster concept.

I did note one other odd thing on the Roll: year 299, the Year of the Vaasan Knot. I may have missed any others, but I think that's the only name on the entire list that refers to a specific named place. Sure, there's entries like 1379, the Year of the Lost Keep, or 786, the Moaning Gorge, but the Year of the Vaasan Knot is the only one I noticed that is named after a specific country/geographical spot. The Lost Keep or Moaning Gorge could be anywhere.

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Afetbinttuzani
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  17:17:23  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm really loving Year of the Wooly Rupert!

'Year of the Space Hamster' would work pretty well, too!


I agree that Wooly should be honored for his meticulous diligence. I propose something a little more reamlsy though, "Year of the Meticulous Vermin".
Afet

Afet bint Tuzanν

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  17:51:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, thanks.

But what I'm doing is not all that impressive. Tom Costa and Steven Schend and the rest of the folks who built the list did all the work -- I'm just playing with what they did.

And Brian building the Grand History is a hell of a lot more impressive that what I'm doing.

I'm just trying to make a version of the list that's easier to work with. And since there are a couple of problems on the list, I want to fix them while I'm at it.

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Aravine
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  18:11:32  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Heh, thanks.

But what I'm doing is not all that impressive. Tom Costa and Steven Schend and the rest of the folks who built the list did all the work -- I'm just playing with what they did.

And Brian building the Grand History is a hell of a lot more impressive that what I'm doing.

I'm just trying to make a version of the list that's easier to work with. And since there are a couple of problems on the list, I want to fix them while I'm at it.




And he's modest!

Look, Wooly, not anyone would have been dedicated enough to spot this. don't downplay praise when it's given. Just let it come when it will.

The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all
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Afetbinttuzani
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Posted - 06 May 2008 :  18:57:57  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Heh, thanks.
But what I'm doing is not all that impressive. Tom Costa and Steven Schend and the rest of the folks who built the list did all the work -- I'm just playing with what they did.

And he's modest!

Look, Wooly, not anyone would have been dedicated enough to spot this. don't downplay praise when it's given. Just let it come when it will.


Here, here!

Afet bint Tuzanν

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 06 May 2008 18:59:16
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Dec 2008 :  20:24:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Resurrecting an old topic, once again...

Last night, I recalled this thread and my project of correcting the few mistakes still remaining on the Roll of Years. It was prompted by me using some of the same HTML code to set up a page listing all Warmachine troops, so that I could see at a glance what faction had what, and what book it was listed in...

Anyway, I have now created an amended Roll of Years, drawing entirely from the stuff in this thread (in other words, I don't know of any other errors not mentioned already, and my solutions to them came from ones presented here).

As part of the page, I notated the problematic entries and my solutions to them. I'm copying the text here, to see if anyone has any more to add, notate, or suggest. The final version is a bit neater than what's below; I didn't feel like flipping the coding from HTML to what's used here. The final version also has links to the Calendar tool and the REALMS-L FAQ.




Errors and Issues:

In the original Roll of Years file, the year -645 is listed twice, as both the Year of Eternal Amber and the Year of Maleficent Counsel. The Forgotten Realms Calendar Tool, oddly, has neither name. The pdf A Grand History of the Realms (the last version updated before the release of the printed The Grand History of the Realms) has an event happening in the Year of Eternal Amber, and uses that name on the Roll of Years in that file. There is no listed event for that year in the print version.

Therefore, I opted for the Year of Eternal Amber.

Year 994 in the original Roll of Years file also has two names, Year of the Unanswered Riddle and Year of the Weary Scribe. The latter name appears in both in the Roll in the pdf Grand History, and in the Calendar tool. Neither version of the Grand History has an event in that year.

I chose to go with the Year of the Weary Scribe.

There are two years with the name the Year of the Fledglings, 107 and 1173. Both years have corresponding events in the printed Grand History.

Though having events notated for both numerical years makes things a bit tricky, I chose to follow Steven Schend's suggest, and rename 107 the Year of Many Hawks. As George Krashos notated, this is a year name that has appeared in print (Polyhedron #85, p.6), but did not appear on the Roll of Years.

Another issue is the Year of the Prowling Naga (142) and the Year of Prowling Naga (1176). The Year of the Prowling Naga (142) has an event listed in the printed Grand History (and the pdf). No event is listed in either source for 1176.

For this one, Steven Schend suggested that one of them could have been a misread listing by a scribe. His suggestion was to make 1176 be the Year of Growling Naga. However, I opted against this. To me, "Growling Naga" really sounds like there should be a "the" in front of it. I chose to use another year named on Krash's list of non-Roll year names, the Year of the Snarling Snowleopard (Polyhedron #80, p.6).

The original Roll of Years RTF file also omitted a year, 977. This error was duplicated in the Forgotten Realms Calendar Tool. However, a name for this year has been provided. It was originally on the REALMS-L list, but the information has since been added to the REALMS-L FAQ hosted on the Candlekeep website. According to that FAQ, 977 is the Year of Swordforging.

As mentioned above, Krash listed some year names that do not appear on the Roll of Years. Per the FAQ, year names not listed on the Roll are considered to be regional variants. For the sake of completeness, here is Krash's list:

Year of the Black Shield – Polyhedron #79, p.7
Year of the Snarling Snowleopard – Polyhedron #80, p.6
Year of the Black Axe – Polyhedron #81, p.8
Year of the Black Banner – Polyhedron #82, p.22
Year of Rising Winds – Polyhedron #83, p.29
Year of Falling Stones – Polyhedron #84, p.19
Year of the Torch – Polyhedron #87, p.8
Year of the Unicorn – Polyhedron #86, p.17
Year of Many Hawks – Polyhedron #85, p.6
Year of the Hunting Hawk – Halls of the High King, p.2
Year of Tattered Banners - FR11 Dwarves Deep, p.59

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The Sage
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Posted - 06 Dec 2008 :  23:39:20  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. I was actually thinking about this the other day while flicking through Dwarves Deep, and remembering back to George's listing.

Wooly, while I like the idea of using one of the Years from Krash's list for the second "Prowling Naga" reference, I actually chose a different one for my own personal Roll of Years.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another issue is the Year of the Prowling Naga (142) and the Year of Prowling Naga (1176). The Year of the Prowling Naga (142) has an event listed in the printed Grand History (and the pdf). No event is listed in either source for 1176.

For this one, Steven Schend suggested that one of them could have been a misread listing by a scribe. His suggestion was to make 1176 be the Year of Growling Naga. However, I opted against this. To me, "Growling Naga" really sounds like there should be a "the" in front of it. I chose to use another year named on Krash's list of non-Roll year names, the Year of the Snarling Snowleopard (Polyhedron #80, p.6).
I selected Year of Tattered Banners for 1176 DR mainly because the reference in FR11 suggested that the events of that particular Year name occured "just over two centuries ago."

Now, I know the Realms year of printing for Dwarves Deep [around 1357-1359 roughly] wasn't over two centuries later in exact timeline terms with respect to 1176 DR, but it's close enough. And, using Steven's suggestion above that some hasty scribes occasionally make errors by mis-reading information, I thought it would be easier just to assume the scribe was mistaken with the "over" portion of the text I quoted above from the information Elminster collected. Instead, perhaps the events of the Year of Tattered Banners occured "nearly two centuries ago" -- which makes it easier to source the 1176 DR year reference as the Year of Tattered Banners.

And, besides, it kinda matches with the whole absence of "the" in the Year name for 1176 DR anyway, which I thought was more appropriate.

Thoughts?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Dec 2008 :  23:47:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is good reasoning. I shall make the appropriate notations now.

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Markustay
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USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2008 :  01:30:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Year of Maleficent Council should still be listed, perhaps an an alternate (regional?) name for that year.

Looking at the timeline, I'd say it was a Deep Imaskar name for it (the Necromancers could have begun counceling Ilphemon at that point).

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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2008 05:53:37
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