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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  11:36:47  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.

To go through it -

1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.

If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.

What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.



I wasn't aware of this. Where can I read more about this lore?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  14:41:11  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey


Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?



I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.

To go through it -

1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.

If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.

What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.



I don't have any special insight into this particular relationship; but I can say it wasn't uncommon for very young women to be taken as a ward (hostage?) by a noble and raised in his house in our own world. It is safe to say that MANY of these young girls became the mistress of this particular lord when they were older...many of them doing so to gain favor at court.

At least Asper and Mirt married.

It is weird to me too...hard to grasp in this day and age; but not so uncommon a few hundred years ago.

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  15:39:12  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi, all.
I spoke with Ed (who's offline again this morning; darned construction workers!) and he asked me to tell Dalor Darden that Manshoon-dealing with-Elminster is NDA right now (meaning, hint hint, that eventually you WILL see something about this!!!) and to echo what Dalor said, about people in Waterdeep taking young wards, not being unusual.
Zandilar, Ed added that he quite understands your reaction, and will explain some of why he wrote what he wrote when he gets the chance to sit down at a keyboard and do it properly.
However, he agrees that what TSR let "slip through the cracks" about Mirt and Asper left him scratching his head - - especially when they nixed publishing three short stories he wrote, all "swashbuckling adventures of the daring, impish teenaged Asper in Waterdeep" wherein (as a side-thread to the Saint-like criminal hijinks that were the main plots of the stories) she, hormones raging, tried repeatedly to seduce Mirt, and he (increasingly aroused but VERY uncomfortable about feeling that way about someone he'd raised as a daughter) rebuffed her awkwardly.
I've read those tales, and the protagonist and main focus is Asper, who learns for herself what she wants (against what others want for her or to do to her), and sets about going and getting it.
She measures Mirt against nobles (old and young, of both genders) and other Waterdhavians, Lords and commoners, she meets - - and decides she prefers and wants Mirt, and no one else. So she sets about "getting him," something he gruffly resists throughout two of the tales, only to succumb in the third.
I'm not saying everyone will sympathize or agree with what Mirt does, after they read the stories, I'm just pointing out that it is NOT "parent power figure forcing himself on young vulnerable ward," but very much the other way around. Asper is very much, to use modern jargon, "self-empowered."
I'm amazed that TSR passed on the chance to publish stories showing a young female, on her own, making the choices (and doing the fast action stuff) that made her a successful adventurer. Even if the sexual elements in the third tale rule it out for publication (they do, under the Code of Ethics of the time, but the story seems very tame today), they could have published the first two. I suspect they feared fans getting fascinated with Asper (who got almost entirely left out of the published Realms) and demanding more - - whereupon "all of this dirty stuff" might have come out.
However, Ed was telling the separate moral journeys of Mirt and Asper, not dealing in "shining white good characters" and "dastardly dark villains," and emphatically NOT telling an "older male exploits younger female under his control or influence" story.
love,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  15:39:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey


Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?



I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.

To go through it -

1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.

If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.

What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.



I know of at least one person who was formerly active here that is quite squicked by the Mirt/Asper relationship.

That said, I have seen such a thing at least one other time in fiction. In Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, the main character at one point rescues a baby girl from a fire. He raises her, and years later -- like all the female characters in the book, it seems -- she seduced him.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  17:01:47  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


who'll drop in a request for more on Malchor Harpell, the only well-balanced brain in that family tree (because he wasn't dropped on his head from it, apparently)



I'll have to second that request.

I also agree with what others have already said about Mirt and his appeal.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  17:16:05  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I don't have any special insight into this particular relationship; but I can say it wasn't uncommon for very young women to be taken as a ward (hostage?) by a noble and raised in his house in our own world. It is safe to say that MANY of these young girls became the mistress of this particular lord when they were older...many of them doing so to gain favor at court.


Zandilar wasn't arguing that such a practice wouldn't have been common in the real world. She was arguing (or at least implying) that the situation in question is wrong, as in immoral. Just because "it happened" doesn't mean Zandilar is going to find it acceptable, and it wouldn't disprove her contention* that such a practice is wrong, either.


*That's how I read it, Zandilar can correct me if I'm wrong.


"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Nov 2008 17:20:49
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe

USA
182 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  17:37:08  Show Profile  Visit Vangelor's Homepage Send Vangelor a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Without further ado, heeeeeere’s Ed:

Vangelor, in reply to Zandilar, you mentioned two minor male elf characters in Elminster in Myth Drannor as possibly gay, and added: “Whether Ed can confirm this without the Morality Code Enforcers shutting us down, I cannot say.”
Well, I can and will confirm it. Those two male elves had of course (I say “of course” because of how “young elves at play” behaved in that elven society, something I gave readers a glimpse of, in the Symrustar trying to seduce Elminster scenes) experienced elven female companionship . . . but had discovered they preferred each other.
You also asked: “Ed, are there any ballads or tales popular in the Sword Coast, Heartlands, Luruar or the lands of the Dragon Reach, which celebrate famous lovers who happen to both have been male? Not that their love need to be what they are famous for, but like Achilles and Patroklos, an element of their tale to deep to omit?”
My answer is yes, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to delve into my backfiles to find examples to share with you.
Let me just name one famous couple: Baerndar and Joszryn, mercenaries who fought alongside each other for years (in the early days of humans venturing up into orc, ogre, dwarf, gnoll, and flind territories in the Dragonreach lands, the Moonsea, and north of the Moonsea), became fast friends and eventually lovers, and died fighting to protect each other.
They are remembered in short tavern-talk tales of their daring exploits, and “everyone knows” the phrase “Baern and Josz” as a shorthand verbal expression for long-established, close-knit male couples. (Who are fairly common among adventurers, mercenaries, and backland woodcutters and miners, but fairly rare elsewhere in the region. The highest number of gay male couples would probably be in the larger Sembian cities, with older males being “in the closet” types who love and make love to long-term trading partners, and younger “dashing handsome young blades” of the feasting and social whirl set being more likely to be “out.” These [“out” and “in the closet”] are of course real-world terms, NOT phrases in use in the Realms.)


Thank you, Ed. (And thank you, THO, always). Any older mentions you happen to unearth along the way are of course appreciated. I am especially glad to have my suspicion regarding those two in Elminster in Myth Drannor confirmed, even if my freedom to imagine it "my way" in playing the Realms makes it a somewhat moot point.

The lore on Baern and Josz is adequate to my immediate Roleplay-flavor needs, and fits right in with the part of the world where things are afoot right now. The notes regarding mercenaries, adventurers, etc. are pretty much as expected in an agrarian society (where children are needed hands around the farmstead and not just hungry mouths), and is a point I think was made before but is none the worse for reiteration.

The point regarding larger cities is also well taken, and makes good sense. Not because larger cities are more decadent (although that never hurts!) but because most people are much more likely to prefer the opposite sex, and it takes a certain critical mass of humanity to spawn a visible subculture, rather than just "that pair at the end of the village - closer than brothers, they are, bless them!"

It's vexing that these things require confirmation or clarification, but encouraging when fantastic authors (in all senses of the word) speak up and say "Yes, Erreth Akbe loved Maharion," (Le Guin) or, "Yes, Dumbledore and Grindelwald were more than friends," (Rowling). And it doesn't need to be the center of the story to make the world more inclusive. So thank you again for daring to go where marketing people fear to tread in the cause of showing us your world and all its complexities. It is deeply appreciated.

Edited by - Vangelor on 12 Nov 2008 17:59:29
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  18:49:19  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin and Zandilar,
Neither I nor Ed am arguing that what Mirt did was morally right. Mirt is a "villain struggling toward being a good guy," a struggle that unfolds slowly, and that he fights often badly and unwillingly, throughout his life.
Or to put it another way, Mirt starts out as a young, arrogant, ruthless a**hole . . . and slowly, as what he does and sees sickens him, starts to derive a personal moral code, of sorts. It's his own code, that often varies widely from the local law and from the various moral codes of the various Faerunian faiths (which in turn are often far removed from our own various real-world codes).
We should always remember that the Realms started as Ed's world (pre-TSR, pre-D&D), and he was (and is) trying to create a realistic fantasy world, of his own. As he once said to me: "If victories and right moral choices are to mean something, the alternative has to be shown and fully appreciated. And if realism is greater when you show warts and all, you have to show the warts - - and show them in something less than flippant fast action or comic-opera fashion." (He presented the example of the beheading of Conan's mother at the beginning of the Conan movie as an example of that: effective, but quick and then forgotten so all the fighting could be indulged in.)
Mirt is NOT a shining hero. He's a ruthless, capable killer who becomes a wily, successful mercenary general ("Mirt the Merciless") who sees consequences, some steps ahead, and thereby appreciates politics that keep killing (all dead are potential future clients, remember) to a minimum, and slowly starts to see and appreciate more about life.
The fat, wheezing old swindler of a Mirt Ed portrayed in his early Realms tales has the heart of gold, but not necessarily the means to express it well . . . nor the ability to always do the good (or "right") thing.
Part of the fascination of both Mirt and Asper, as characters (obvious to me as a player in Ed's campaigns), is that you never know what they'll do. If they react the way you expect them to, what they then do may (ahem, usually does) surprise you.
love,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  19:24:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
The 'Change of Heart' thing is VERY popular, and makes a person a greater hero in the long run. It's easy to be a good person coming from a good background, but not so easy when you don't (take a look at Drizzt).

Not to derail this thread, but by way of RW example I was watching a talkshow that featured a young couple and the women's mother who was trying her hardest to break the couple up. Her problem with the young man was that he had been in jail, and had been in-and-out of trouble since he was a kid, mostly because of drugs. The man got up and told everyone that he had been 'clean' for three years, and couldn't understand why his mother-in-law couldn't see beyond his past.

When he announced that he had been 'clean' for three years, the entire audience got up and applauded. The old women got angry and yelled at the audience "I ain't never done no drugs! Why're aren't y'all clapping for me?!" - dead silence.

The moral is that he was far more heroic, having come from 'the dark side'. Falling to temptation is easy... coming back not so much. As for the girl - that sort of thing goes on all the time, and I'm not just talking about the 'dark ages'. You'd be surprised about how many girls steal their step-daddies from their mommas or baby-sitters wind-up with their employer. Woody Allen is not alone in the world - merely the most famous. And Toril does not have a monotheistic church breathing down everyone's back making sure they know right from wrong - it's entirely different world with different perceptions about things.

I have lots of friends from other countries, and you'd be surprised by what goes on and how young girls marry. Living in a 'modern nation' forces us to view things through our own stringent morality, which doesn't neccessarily apply to others and certainly not to people on a fantasy world.

Certainly if Mirt's intentions were bad from the start he would be cast as a villain, but he did not want the relationship, and even fought against it IIRC. I'm not saying I'm siding with him here - I have problems with it as well - but I am intelligent enough to realize these people do not live in Utah, and they have their own standards of behaviour.

I read a Sci-Fi book once where a group of humans crash-landed on a alien world, and although some of the plants were editable they had no meat. After a couple thousand years a very bizzare society arose with an upper and lower class, and women of the lower classes had to serve some time on 'the farms'. The farms, you see, is where these women were impregnated so that they could provide 'meat' for the rest of society.

Pretty goulish, and if you have problems with Mirt marrying his own foster-daughter, try wrapping you're mind around that one.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Vangelor
Learned Scribe

USA
182 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  20:32:54  Show Profile  Visit Vangelor's Homepage Send Vangelor a Private Message
In childhood, Vlad "the Impaler" Tepes and his brother Radu were hostages fosted at the court of an Ottoman Sultan to assure the peaceable intentions of their father, Vlad Dracul. Vlad Tepes seems not to have had any reason to remain when he had a chance at freedom (and claiming the throne of Wallachia as a Christian prince). His half-brother, however, had become close to the Sultan's son, and chose to remain with the Turks, even ruling briefly as a client-prince of the Ottoman throne when his lover became Sultan in turn. Radu went down in history with the sobriquet "the Handsome", not "the Impale-him", however.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  20:41:42  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


who'll drop in a request for more on Malchor Harpell, the only well-balanced brain in that family tree (because he wasn't dropped on his head from it, apparently)



I'll have to second that request.



Me three! Is it possible now for a Harpell family tree to be assembled and made public through Candlekeep, or are there still NDAs in effect? On that note...

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

Why is the succession document still under NDA after the publication of the lineage of succession in the GHotR and the subsequent obliteration of consistency that is the Spellplague?



Well, simply because it contains work originally created by Ed for TSR. As in, he had a bunch of Cormyr lore on the lineage of kings in that realm that was supplied for the Ol' Grey Box. That's why you got a snippet of the line of monarchs there.

Sure, there has been a huge amount of work done to the document since, and it has received constant updates as more lore has unfolded, but the kernel of the document, the skeleton as it were, belongs to TSR/WotC. We could provide you with the flesh, but we'd have to delete all the names that make up the skeleton. And that wouldn't be all that useful.

I personally think that no NDA should apply to the lineage anymore. Clearly it's unlikely to see any real use by WotC with the timejump and the advent of 4E. This is especially so considering that Cormyr is "done" now from a DDI point of view - thanks Brian (squared)!

But wiser heads than mine have to make that decision, and I'm not going to upset and annoy people like Ed and Brian by deciding to post the copy that Brian has generously provided to me to keep me in the loop.

-- George Krashos



I applaud George for his integrity on this matter... but I still want that document! *

* - Alaundo, Sage, Wooly: We need a "bawl-your-eyes-out" whining smiley!

Is there any chance at all of the Cormyr noble lineage being made public, particularly given George's comments regarding its value post-Spellplague as "hidden lore"? This document, second only to a 3.5-era published sourcebook for Cormyr, is what I'd most like to see Wizards release for the use of fans of the Realms, and I've written off all prospects of the sourcebook with the rushing of 4e to market. I'm hoping that Ed can make my case to Wizards better than I can, as my comments on Wizards' message boards appear to be falling on deaf ears. This seems to me to be a case of withholding lore simply because they can, at this point; it would cost very little for them to make it available as a "pay-per-download" document on the website, and from what I've heard, it's far too large, lore-heavy, and specialized (not to mention anachronistic) a document for D&D Insider anyway, whose Cormyr update has already appeared.

Apologies for the length of this post; many thanks for anything you can tell me about the fate of this wonderful, must-have document!

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  20:59:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Jakk... your new nickname is 'Nada'

as in 'NDA', and the answers you receive regarding them (in other words, NADA).

I don't think that 'everything' should be made public-knowledge, for the simple reason that it ties the hands of designer/authors, and that particular 'bondage' led to the 4e's 'lore-independent' presentation. The more they tell us, the more they paint themselves into a corner.

I'm not even a professional and I find I am loathe to release a lot of the homebrew stuff I work on, because I am always tweaking it. Once people read it, the 'fine-tuning' is over.

As for the Harpells... thats a big YES!!! I love those crazy buggers.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  21:31:48  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message
I don't want *everything*... but I would like to have access to any unpublished canon lore that isn't going to be further developed, and the word from WotC is that said definition encompasses everything pre-1385 DR. If 5e employs a reset to an earlier date, then the existing lore prior to that point will be invalidated, as well as the "lore-free" environment of 4e (sorry, Ed; I can't call it a world, because it isn't one without the lore). If that lore doesn't see the light of day before being invalidated by a timeline reset, it ties our hands as DMs and, most importantly, storytellers in the shared world of the Realms.

Edit: Allow me to elaborate on my position. Mysteries about ancient places and things (like the thirteen pyramids under Ascore, the Baneblades, and the Artblade), I'm fine with leaving unanswered; of such things are great plot hooks made. Mysteries about the fates of people are something I feel differently about, given the stated intention of WotC to focus on the "present" (post-Spellplague) and its clear divorcing of the past and present with the timeline jump. We've been told by a variety of sources here, including hints from Ed via THO, that the emphasis for the novels will be on the Realms post-Spellplague, and we are unlikely to see the story of the Thronestrife come out in print in this way; I don't see WotC allowing Ed to write a novel-length "flashback" to over a millennium in the past sandwiched between a prologue and epilogue featuring King Foril. I'd love it, and I'd buy the novel in hardcover on its day of release, but I honestly don't see the story of the Thronestrife coming out in any way except the release of the Lineage document. Just my thoughts on the matter; hopefully someone 'in the know' will correct me if I'm mistaken on any of these points.

However, I can agree with Mark about not wanting to release the homebrew stuff... in my case, it's simply because I haven't been able to fact-check it all against canon, not having my 1E/2E sources with me. I have a few of them (a couple of dozen titles, most of them not relevant to my writings) in PDF format, but I can't sit and read at a screen the way I can with hard copy, and I don't have the budget for that much printer ink.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 12 Nov 2008 21:53:19
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  21:57:05  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

<snip>
Edit: Allow me to elaborate on my position. Mysteries about ancient places and things (like the thirteen pyramids under Ascore, the Baneblades, and the Artblade), I'm fine with leaving unanswered; of such things are great plot hooks made. Mysteries about the fates of people are something I feel differently about, given the stated intention of WotC to focus on the "present" (post-Spellplague) and its clear divorcing of the past and present with the timeline jump. We've been told by a variety of sources here, including hints from Ed via THO, that the emphasis for the novels will be on the Realms post-Spellplague, and we are unlikely to see the story of the Thronestrife come out in print in this way; I don't see WotC allowing Ed to write a novel-length "flashback" to over a millennium in the past sandwiched between a prologue and epilogue featuring King Foril. I'd love it, and I'd buy the novel in hardcover on its day of release, but I honestly don't see the story of the Thronestrife coming out in any way except the release of the Lineage document. Just my thoughts on the matter; hopefully someone 'in the know' will correct me if I'm mistaken on any of these points.
<snip>


Alas, Jakk, you're still thinking in terms of a fan and not in business terms. The NDA is in place in case, someday, someone decides that a book about that would make money. As long as their is a chance that money may be made, the NDA will remain in place.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  22:01:53  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message
True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this.

Edit:
I'm being reactionary... what I would like to see is genealogical data on the Crown Royal and three Royal Families, and I would happily pay money for it; if this data could be presented in conjunction with a piece of fiction (of whatever length) describing the events of the Thronestrife, so much the better. If Wizbro wants to sit on the opportunity to make money when it's there for the taking, so be it. I just think that the idea of packaging the lineage document (minus any secrets other than the Thronestrife that are still worth keeping) and a short(ish) work of fiction by Ed chronicling the Thronestrife in a document for sale online (thereby avoiding printing and binding costs, etc.) is too good an opportunity for Wizbro to pass up. I'm more than happy to shell out the cash for the lore, so Ashe's argument doesn't really work for me. That being said, I read "Dilbert" regularly enough to know that what's logical and what's done are often very different beasts.

Thanks for putting up with my ranting. It doesn't help that I'm an obsessive detail-oriented historian of a gamer. I'm done now.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 12 Nov 2008 23:22:46
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2008 :  23:06:28  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Zandilar wasn't arguing that such a practice wouldn't have been common in the real world. She was arguing (or at least implying) that the situation in question is wrong, as in immoral. Just because "it happened" doesn't mean Zandilar is going to find it acceptable, and it wouldn't disprove her contention* that such a practice is wrong, either.


*That's how I read it, Zandilar can correct me if I'm wrong.




*sticks the Zandilar seal of approval on Rino's post*

Exactly. In this day and age, adults who allow themselves to be seduced by those who are minors (especially if that adult had some kind of duty of care towards the minor - such as a teacher or a parent (step, foster, adoptive, or otherwise)), are subject to prosecution under the law.

In short, the law expects that adults should know better.

There's enough evidence to suggest that most young persons cannot give informed consent, and when they consent to something (even if they initiate it), there's lasting harm done to their psyche later. Personally I don't give a darn what consenting adults do (even if they're related by blood (so long as there's no issue), or by life long adoption), but when they step over the line and molest a minor (even if it was initiated by the minor) they should have the book thrown at them.

Having said that, age of consent (majority) is a completely different issue. Some people below the age of consent are quite capable of making informed choices when it comes to sex... And some people who are adults are quite incapable of the same (I'd make a political comment about the current US government and their insistence on teaching abstinence instead of safe/safer sex, but that's out of place here). Which is why I used "most" in the above paragraph.

It probably wouldn't squick me as much if Asper was marginally older (ie: an adult, not a hormone ravaged teen), because age differences don't bother me (they ruddy well better not! After all, my step-father is just 6 years older than me, and 20 years younger than my mother).

Also, the (sometimes only seemingly) young nubile woman throwing herself at a <insert combination of fat, hairy, wheezing> elderly man... It's not just a stereotype, it's a cliche, especially in the Realms it seems sometimes.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  00:45:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this.
This is ED's thread, not WotC's, and he DID contribute to that fine work.

In fact, I still chuckle every time I think about Erik Mona's comment that "Raw Ed is amazing".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  02:20:44  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Thanks much for the information on chariot races. I especially welcome cool phrases which may be dropped into a game to give it a "Realms" feel rather than being just "D&D."

With all this discussion of same-gender lovers (it's an inescapable topic in California this month), I recall some who actually changed Earth history, e.g. Damon and Pythias, David and Jonathan, Edward the Second of England and his two consecutive male lovers (which didn't work out well for him in the end), and some heir-presumptive to the Ottoman Sultanate who took up with a male lover (was it Dracula's brother?), which indirectly led to southeastern Europe being invaded by the Turks, and so on. My question is: what same-gender couples in the history of Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur have had significant effects on history? And, while we're on the topic, was there ever anything like the Sacred Band of Thebes? (I suspect not, given that it was -- apparently -- unique in Earth history).




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  02:36:48  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Hello All,

If a golem is given a command to cease fighting but is then attacked after, will it defend itself or just allow itself to be destroyed?

Here's what happened this past friday.

Players managed to locate hideout of badly injured red wizard, she failed save against spell Grim Revenge twice which causes hand to dettach and become ghoulish and attack previous owner. She fails against Mind Poison spell but manages to flee via telport to her island hideout, unfortunately she is unable to adminster healing due to lacking hands or appropiate spells to help her access healing flask, although she has none that will regenerate her hands. The attacker "A-man" wishes to use PC's to deal with her for various reasons and drops one of the now bashed hands in their laps, telling them it will augment their scrying of her since she is unknown to them.

The PC's do just that even though they have determined that "A-man" is a vampire, cleric of Selune actually performs the divination using the hand as a foci which I as DM found interesting but haven't decided what if any code this would be possibly violating (If you have any suggestions, please share).
Anyway they manage to locate her and whick themselves to her location where an alchemical golem is waiting, during the fighting and probably due to Mind Poison spell the red wizard falls under dominate spell of PC bard who commands her to tell golem to cease fighting, bard then teleports away with enthralled red wizard.

NOW!!! The PC mage during this summoned a creature an had it attack the golem, with the red wizard gone and it being assaulted, would the golem retaliate?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  03:48:29  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Heya, Zandilar.
You posted: “If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.”
I’d say you got 1, 2, and 3 correct.
However, your Number 4 reads: “When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.”
I’ve read Ed’s unpublished short stories, character notes, and a LOT of unpublished Waterdeep lore (much of it specific to our “home” campaign), as well as interacting, character to character, with the NPC Asper, and based on all of that, I’d correct your Number 4 to read like this:

When Asper gets old enough to become sexually active (she’s been INTERESTED in sex for years, having seen so much of it during her nightly rooftop thieving and spying adventures, undertaken while Mirt is asleep or off on nightly business, thinking her safely in bed), she tries out boys and girls her age and a little older, starting when she’s about age fourteen. (Later than many in Waterdeep, but earlier than some.)
Most of them bore her and ultimately repel her; they are either callow or naïve, or completely self-centered, or impatiently clumsy in their grasping for power.
Asper soon finds herself drawn instinctively to older, more worldly partners, and seeks such out avidly.
She soon discovers that most of the older women she can reach are either disinterested in her, or are (for example, the nobles) utter bitches, who are interested in her only for their own pleasure or as a pawn they can use to further their own aims (such as sending her to seduce men they are interested in, or wish to harm).
Increasingly, she’s drawn to men rather than women, and males older than she is.
Most of the older men (Asper samples such often, late on many a night) just don’t measure up - - in personality, that is (many of them far outstrip him in agility, looks, and put-on charm) - - to the man she knows better than all others: Mirt, whose ward she is (and who is, yes, not just old enough to be her father, but old enough to be her grandfather or even her great-grandfather). Mirt is kind, and makes her laugh, and thinks more deeply, and accomplishes far more (for more than just his personal gain) far more than anyone else she meets - - and many of them are trying to ingratiate themselves with her, whereas Mirt is not.
During her wild teen years of thieving and learning to become good with a blade, Asper scours Waterdeep for someone better (in her eyes) than Mirt, and comes up with only a handful of possible candidates, most of whom (such as Piergeiron or Khelben) neither attract her nor are interested in her in the slightest. Like most teens, she’s being rudely rebellious towards Mirt’s light household rules at this time, and comes to be impressed by how he handles her defiance. Then she happens to spy on him while he’s handling far worse opposition from some nobles trying to get their own way and ruin Waterdeep in the process, judges his performance, and decides Mirt is the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with, and have as her partner.
So she sets out to seduce Mirt, who rebuffs her at first (she’s his WARD, by the gods!) and on several occasions thereafter. When she’s [[as far as I can tell from Ed’s lore notes about their marriage - - which Mirt insists on, by the way]] nineteen, and he’s battle-wounded and abed, drinking to dull the pain, she succeeds in seducing him by simply nursing him to slumber, then joining him in bed.
Here’s a few lines from Ed’s third story, of Mirt’s awakening, thereafter:

“Curses of Sharess!” Mirt groaned, staring blearily into the familiar eyes smiling up at him from the crook of his shoulder. “What’ve I DONE?”
Asper’s smile flashed bright triumph. “’Tis not what you did, Old Wolf,” she told him fiercely. “’Tis what I’VE done!”
Mirt groaned again.

Now, nineteen is young in the opinion of some, but I doubt most nineteen year olds would agree with you that they can’t make their own choices at that age.
From my own current age, looking back, I’d say many nineteen year olds make lousy choices, but in most places in our real world nineteen is old enough to join an army and go off and get killed, and is certainly old enough to marry.
And yes, “young woman hurling herself at old, decrepit male” is a stereotype, in the real world and the Realms, and often for the same reasons: it’s marrying into money, power, and a hoped-for “good life.” Often it’s a mistake, and Ed has shown it to be so in many of his writings about the nobles of both Waterdeep and Cormyr.
Asper is slender, agile, small of stature, and “sleek.” She looks younger than she is, and most Waterdhavians who see her, circa 1358 DR or so, probably think she’s quite young.

Your wording, Zandilar, makes it sound like Mirt bedded a young child. The truth is, he was drunk and abed and was seduced there by a randy lass (Ed has several times described her as “in the grip of raging hormones,” meaning: she’s one of those individuals who likes and wants sex, often) who was almost twenty.
As I said in my earlier post: Ed wasn’t trying to portray either Mirt or Asper as heroes or villains (or “loose” or “wanton,” for that matter). Just as “real” characters, who grow morally as they gain experience. Mirt spent much of his life as a merciless, crude, selfish adventurer . . . but was one of the few of that sort of person to grow in another direction, over time.

love,
THO
P.S. Jamallo Kreen: “(which didn't work out well for him in the end)” . . . what a HORRIBLE pun!!!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  06:24:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Heh. This whole discussion about Mirt and Asper's "young love" kinda reminds me of the reactions some readers had to the start of the "love affair" between Colossus and Shadowcat in Uncanny X-Men back in the early 80's. I remember reading all the negative mail the folks at Marvel received from some readers over that one panel in #165 where Peter passionately kissed the 14-year-old Katya.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Edited by - The Sage on 13 Nov 2008 06:25:30
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  07:02:37  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Heh. This whole discussion about Mirt and Asper's "young love" kinda reminds me of the reactions some readers had to the start of the "love affair" between Colossus and Shadowcat in Uncanny X-Men back in the early 80's. I remember reading all the negative mail the folks at Marvel received from some readers over that one panel in #165 where Peter passionately kissed the 14-year-old Katya.



It reminded me of my wife and I...9 years difference between our ages; but I look older than I am from a hard life...and she looks younger than she is (which defies my own experience because her life was harder than mine!).

Now, so many years later and three children to boot...I STILL get looks from women who think I'm some old pervert kissing a young girl (my wife, now 28, still looks to be in her teens...while I'm 37 and look to be perhaps in my fourties!!!).

On a more "on topic" note:

If some El/Manshoon stuff is perhaps in the wings of writing...

Have the Knights of Myth Drannor ever had need to work WITH the Lord of the Zhentarim?

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  08:10:04  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
When she’s [[as far as I can tell from Ed’s lore notes about their marriage - - which Mirt insists on, by the way]] nineteen, and he’s battle-wounded and abed, drinking to dull the pain, she succeeds in seducing him by simply nursing him to slumber, then joining him in bed.


Ah, the important bit of information I didn't know (what I bolded).

Squick factor just went from a billion to 0. My stepfather was just 19 when he and my mother became lovers, and was 20 by the time he moved in. They didn't actually marry until much later.

Thank you for that, it was something that had always bothered me because I didn't have one pertinent bit of information. I'm glad to see it wasn't what I thought, really.

(I still don't see the attraction to Mirt, though. He's really not my type.)

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 13 Nov 2008 08:11:07
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  08:43:01  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message
Howdy Ed,

Long time RAS fan here, diving into the full smorgasbord of Realms lore in a more apropos environment than the mostly-younger community of fans in RAS's official forums. I think I've sufficiently learned of your import and status in the Realms from perusing around, but I admit that I still have a lot to learn outside of RAS's works.

Which brings me to a recent controversy in another scroll here on CK.com. Over in the scroll <"Dale-Reckoning Date of the Menzoberranzan Box Set">, a little drama arose over how much weight to give the official date of the MBS, in light of my own independent research into all of the time clues of RAS's Menzo-related works.

After a bit of hopping about, stabbing wildly in the dark at different isolated blurbs in the set, someone asserted that you had assigned a certain date to the set, and that that settled it, once and for all. I have yet to see this statement from you, as nobody could link me to it. They just claim it's out here, somewhere in the ethos...

But when I myself read through the set, I seem to find some minor time clues that, combined with my research into the time clues within RAS's Menzo-related works, point to a slightly different time setting. I explained how I came to a different conclusion.

However, no one really explained how you made your determination. That's a little dissatisfying.

What's more, no one could really explain how my determination is wrong.

Instead, the discussion basically seemed to come down to BESSo: Because Ed Says So! That's very dissatisfying.

In light of the others' inability to explain your rationale for dating the MBS as you have apparently done, could you do so now? I'd be much obliged.

IMO, the kicker is that you seemed to have made your best educated guess, estimation, projection, etc., etc., at the time (1991), but there really was no way to know how long it would take before RAS finally moved the Menzo community fully into the 2nd Edition and caught up with the Time of Troubles and the year 1358 DR. So, if I'm reading things correctly, you used your Ao-ly powers and decided that late 1357 DR made as much sense as anything.

But if I may be so bold, that conclusion seems not to match up with the fact that the MBS also mentions a few events from Bob's book The Legacy, and when read with the rest of the books of his "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series, TL actually appears to have taken place in the spring immediately preceeding the Time of Troubles. That would seen to make it spring, 1358 DR.

Were you, perhaps, intending for the MBS to be set in 1357 DR, but someone else inserted the Drizzt and TL passages later? As RAS's other novels in the mini-series came down the pike, that might have extended the effective current time of the set to spring, 1358 DR, without your witting consent in 1991. It seems pretty clear that funky happenings like to go down during the editing process. And things evolve through the passage of time...

I do not mean to be contrarian or disrespectful in suggesting all of this, but I do stand by my research. I was hoping you could offer an explanation that might reconcile our divergent views on this.

And hopefully your answer will be more satisfying than that of the other scribes in that scroll: BESSo!

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 13 Nov 2008 09:50:33
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2008 :  09:07:52  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this.
This is ED's thread, not WotC's, and he DID contribute to that fine work.



Hey, I didn't say there was anything bad about the Dark Side, did I? I would just prefer to be talking about the Realms without having to dodge the Spellplague. I've come to accept NDAs as a necessary evil in a shared world... after all, what's the point of creating such cool lore if you then allow others to read it right away? Seriously: I'm done flogging that dead horse, because nobody else around here likes that particular kind of kink... at least, I'm not aware of anyone who does...

Erg... I had a question for Ed, but it's 1AM where I am, and my brain has entered sieve mode. Oh well. Ed's fielding enough questions from me already, not to mention everyone else's. If I remember what I wanted to ask, I'll repost. G'night to everybody on the West Coast; hopefully nobody east of me is still awake.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 13 Nov 2008 09:11:02
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