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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 00:28:37
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Ed and THO, thank you for the reply.
Zandilar, if I may, I'd like to tackle the er, attractiveness of Mirt, if I may.
(I was discussing this with several of my publishing colleagues recently.)
Many readers, male and female, identify with someone who's too old/weak/whatever to be the familiar, and often boring, action hero - - but gets thrust into that role, and curses, wheezes, stumbles, and lurches along through it.
Many readers like to think there's a heart of gold somewhere inside the hairy chests of some of the coarser males who frequent bars, drive trucks, et al, and Mirt exemplifies this.
Some readers like to watch a sly, not-too-shiningly-honest character swindle his way through life, just to watch the fun or to see if said character will redeem himself by doing good.
Those are a few of the elements we came up with (echoed in many old western movies), that made us agree with what Faraer just said: WotC are idiots for not letting Ed write Mirt novels. He could really be a popular iconic fantasy character.
Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 01:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Not just one fan's. Many fans.
More Mirt, more El, more Mirt, the fates of the Seven Sisters, more Mirt, fates of the Knights of Myth Drannor, more Mirt, Scotti Amcathra, more Mirt, Cormyr stories, more Mirt, where's Vangey and, lest I forget, MORE MIRT.
What about Mirt? 
I'll ditto the call for more Mirt love.
 That last phrase of Sage's just queued up the Barry White soundtrack in my head. 
Steven
who'll drop in a request for more on Malchor Harpell, the only well-balanced brain in that family tree (because he wasn't dropped on his head from it, apparently) |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 02:11:34
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Hello again, all. I bring you the latest Realmslore from Ed, this time in response to a recent query from Broken Helm: “Lovely Lady THO and Ed, A question arises about storage of large ships and small boats in winter, along the Dragon Coast (Cormyr and shoreline villages everywhere). Presumably ice would crush the hulls of those left in the water, so . . . just dragged ashore and covered? Sheds or roofs built over them to keep the worst of the winter storms from harming them? Drydocks or boathouses? Small boats brought into barns or stables? Thanks.”
Ed replies:
Yes, winters along the Dragon Coast feature ice that “ices in” harbours and does indeed crush hulls left afloat (i.e. tied to docks), so small boats (open skiffs and rowboats, small fishing boats on those villages you refer to) are indeed dragged ashore, turned over, and covered with roofs (often in earthen “dens,” where boat-sized trenches are cut into a shore-facing hillside, so a boat can be easily roofed by spanning a trench, from earth wall to earth wall (over the boat), with logs or squared timbers laid flat, and then lightly covered with mud or sod to (badly) “seal” the gaps between them. Snow then covers the “hill” and hides the boats from view, making them ideal lairs for small beasts that have been be rousted out of them in spring.
And yes, stables and barns have served as boatsheds for winters, though there’s a risk of fire and of course the structures are usually more useful for keeping livestock alive and healthy, sheltered from the snow, cold, damp, and driving winter storms.
In cities, larger ships are run into drydocks and pulled “up” on wooden rollers (usually by means of teams of mules or oxen, pulling on ropes), into the same dockside sheds that hold cargoes during shipping season. Some ships are suspended on rope cradles, but most large ones sit the winter out in carved-to-fit them wooden “rib” cradles, or are “propped” upright (with wooden props) in drydocks, and refitted throughout the winter months. (Popular “last run before winter” and “first run of spring” cargoes, aside from fresh fruits, are new masts and new sails.)
So saith Ed, creator of the Realms (including the Dragon Coast and its winters).
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 02:26:25
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Hi, all! Ed’s back, with ANOTHER Realmslore reply, this time to Wooly Rupert’s query: “I was looking at Dragon #124, earlier. I was specifically reading the article on skyships. The skyship described in the article was said to be Thayan -- but the much later info on Halruaan skyships (FR16 Shining South) was pretty much identical. So that leaves me wondering... Was this ship not Thayan, or was it built using Halruaan techniques? And were the Halruaan techniques the same or different in your Realms?”
Ed replies:
Some Halruaan skyships, dating from the founding (the Netherese diaspora) were VERY different from the skyship described in my DRAGON article. They were the creations of literally scores of Netherese archwizards, who all “went their own way” in the design process, striving separately to craft “ships that could sail the skies” by all manner of different magics. (Yes, they “worked” very differently from each other.)
Later Halruaan skyships were developed from these eccentric originals, and of course STILL varied wildly from each other. Many of them started to make use of the various magics active in Halruaa, interacting with family ward-fields for navigation, safe passage into and out of guarded airspaces, and even to stay aloft.
Gradually, over time, the paranoia of most Halruaan elders regarding “the rest of the Realms” deepened and widened, and they grounded most of these “originals,’ incorporating them into family castles as fully-furnished and –provisioned “getaway craft” for family survival in the face of some dire disaster (er, that is, a disaster that didn’t involve magic going wild or ceasing to work). General wisdom in Halruaa took the view that these older, more powerful unique skyships were “treasures” full of “family secrets” that should be shielded from the eyes of non-Halruaans. So simpler and more standardized trading and “everyday flying” vessels evolved for use in Halruaa and in trading flights to and from the wider Realms - - and this is the sort of craft that was described in FR16.
It also, of course, became the craft non-Halruaan spellcasters could most easily examine and duplicate, hence the Thayan copy described in my DRAGON article.
The Red Wizards could, over time, copy a simple Halruaan trader, but never get to see the “real” Halruaan family skyships that remained at home, increasingly incorporated into Halruaan castles (and thereby “hidden in plain view”).
So saith Ed, who seems to be trying to make up for recent missed lore-reply days!
love to all,
THO
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 02:53:30
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Spells stilled, Scribes:
Oh, Madam Hoody: When and/or I ever become single, you may
do all the above and more to me.   
One to my responses: Josidiah Starym, Nezras the Traitor,
( I assume that the girl I asked Ed about that went into
A's Tower in Waterdeep is depicted in Blackstaff Tower)
the Seven Sisters father, the real Manshoon, an adventure
based all around Larloch as he struggles against a Realms wide
problem, So many more, but that is all I can think of at this time.
Oh Father Greenwood, I bring more meat and drink to you royal
office chair and ask more questions that burn in my mind. All this is around Myth Glaurach.
I am starting to construct a accessary type work on Myth Glaurach, and would like a base to start constructing on.
How was the leader of Myth Glaurach chosen? Who were some of the
leaders and what details can be offered up on them? Where there any
holidays that celebrated special events in the cities history?
Who were the influencial elven noble clans, dwarven clans, and prominent archwizards of Netheril that lived there? What were their
political views and business interests? Where there any rivalries?
Was there a population of gnomes, halflings, and other there?
Was was Glaurachyndaar originally building on the hill it was? I have
drawn a map that has five levels of terraces on it. Is that about right? What were the physical dimensions of the hill and/or layers of the terracing. What was the hill made of? What was the primary
building material for the buildings there. Where did they get this material. Was there precious metals and gemstones in the area that
the town mined? What was the intitial reason the town was built: Wayfarers stop, Library storage and retreival, defensive?
End of part 1. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 03:03:13
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Part 2
What are the physical dimensions of the mythal? Was there ever a road that went to Sundabar or Hellgate Keep? How close are the two rivers of the Talons to the hill Myth Glaurach is on?
I have a list of 34 dieties that might have a temple in Myth Glaurach. If you were to
map it, what ruined temples would you include? Were there any philosophical orders like the ones you put in Myth Drannor? For wizards school, did you write down any and/or include their philosophies on magic? Are there any prominent spellcasters you would like to talk about there?
I guess anything you have that you can talk about would be great, but I get the sneaky feeling that I am about to be Not Answered Directly.
I hope this post doesn't blow out you brain or make you pull your beard out.
Althen |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 03:34:02
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Hello again, scribes!
Ed’s warming my inbox today, indeed!
Good meaty queries, althen (down, scribes, I mean that in an innuendo-free manner), and off they go to Ed.
Who I must say hath awakened with a vengeance!
Wherefore I lay before you yet another screed from him, this time divers replies to recent scribes’ queries and comments!
Without further ado, heeeeeere’s Ed:
createvmind, I’m afraid I can’t venture any official opinion as to the fate of Sarya D, for fear of squashing some future Realms fiction idea someone may have. However, if it makes you feel better, what you’ve outlined doing in your campaign is just how I would handle her, if I was DMing the Realms along that road (my own campaign hasn’t yet reached a time where wider Faerûn has seen or heard of her).
Blueblade, THO and I have both seen and read THE SWORD NEVER SLEEPS, yes. :}
She doesn’t want to review it, yet, because she wants scribes to enjoy it “without the influence of her tongue” (which leaves me with an image that I’ll leave to your imagination, mmm hmm), and as for me . . . modesty forbids.
Markustay, your lore explanation for the duplicated Rimlost is fine with me. Of course, as per the Realms agreement, anything on this published later by Wizards of the Coast will override what I say here, but as far as I’m concerned, this is “the way things are” in the Realms (“official” or “canon,” if you will).
I can’t give you population figures for the Windrise Ports yet, because that’s NDA, but consider them all cities, Imdolphyn being the biggest (and as large as many a Sword Coast port city, [so above 50,000]), and Tarmalune having a population steadily growing from the FRCG figure, and an importance rivaling that of Waterdeep.
You also asked about traveling shows. Yes, these are part of established Realmslore (detailed in several of the old Living City sourcebooks, and alluded to in my Volo’s Guides, as well as one of my more recent Realmslore web columns. All of the associated performances and sideshows you listed exist, though they are smaller, less gaudy, and (thanks to magic) different than in our real world.
Jakk, about that commute . . . it’s not (to me) a long one. These days, I travel about 35 miles, each way, along country roads, to a part-time job.
For the first twenty-six or so years of the Realms being published, I was commuting over 100 miles each way, on the busiest expressway on the planet, to a full-time job . . . and caring for more aging family members than I am.
The bottleneck isn’t my commute, it’s MY aging - - and the recent disappearance of most of the print outlets (DRAGON, DUNGEON, the annual Realms sourcebooks and adventures) I used to be able to impart Realmslore through.
Know you, thought, that driving time isn’t wasted time: I commute alone these days (wife having retired), so as I drive, my subconscious is writing, creating, and mulling over stuff. I’m a “radio and in-car music off, no cellphone” sort of driver, who concentrates on (gasp!) my driving, and seeing the surroundings as I do so.
Zandilar, please tell me more about your feelings about Mirt. As for what you’d like to see more of: I’ll try! That’s all I can promise right now (nothing’s “settled” yet), but I Have Ideas (and if things go well, in a month or two I’ll Have Plans! Bwoohahahah!).
Longtime Lurker, I’m afraid your “updates on Vangerdahast” query is going to have to receive a firm “sorry, under NDA right now” from me. Other than to say: I suspect he would still be alive a century after the end of A GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS, yes.
Kamuraki, you asked about Storm’s proclivities and if there were any democracies in the Realms. Yes, some widely-scattered rural villages, and the monastic communities of some faiths, are (limited) democracies.
And yes, Storm is someone comfortable sexually with both male and female partners. “Anything more to that” will have to wait for Wizards’ permission, and I suspect Hasbro is going to be more straight-laced about such matters than Wizards-before-Hasbro was.
Vangelor, in reply to Zandilar, you mentioned two minor male elf characters in Elminster in Myth Drannor as possibly gay, and added: “Whether Ed can confirm this without the Morality Code Enforcers shutting us down, I cannot say.”
Well, I can and will confirm it. Those two male elves had of course (I say “of course” because of how “young elves at play” behaved in that elven society, something I gave readers a glimpse of, in the Symrustar trying to seduce Elminster scenes) experienced elven female companionship . . . but had discovered they preferred each other.
You also asked: “Ed, are there any ballads or tales popular in the Sword Coast, Heartlands, Luruar or the lands of the Dragon Reach, which celebrate famous lovers who happen to both have been male? Not that their love need to be what they are famous for, but like Achilles and Patroklos, an element of their tale to deep to omit?”
My answer is yes, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to delve into my backfiles to find examples to share with you.
Let me just name one famous couple: Baerndar and Joszryn, mercenaries who fought alongside each other for years (in the early days of humans venturing up into orc, ogre, dwarf, gnoll, and flind territories in the Dragonreach lands, the Moonsea, and north of the Moonsea), became fast friends and eventually lovers, and died fighting to protect each other.
They are remembered in short tavern-talk tales of their daring exploits, and “everyone knows” the phrase “Baern and Josz” as a shorthand verbal expression for long-established, close-knit male couples. (Who are fairly common among adventurers, mercenaries, and backland woodcutters and miners, but fairly rare elsewhere in the region. The highest number of gay male couples would probably be in the larger Sembian cities, with older males being “in the closet” types who love and make love to long-term trading partners, and younger “dashing handsome young blades” of the feasting and social whirl set being more likely to be “out.” These [“out” and “in the closet”] are of course real-world terms, NOT phrases in use in the Realms.)
Jamallo Kreen, your pyramid-shape question is actually NDA until I can check with a certain designer. However, you also asked about chariot races and the locations of MageFairs, and those are topics I can wag my tongue about . . .
Chariot races have been (and still are, though it’s a sport declining in popularity) held in many Calishite, Tashlutan, and other Southern locales, but they are almost always point-to-point overland races, NOT “around and around an oval” affairs, and they have often involved violence between the racers (though using bows, darts, or other missile weapons has always been considered the worst sort of cheating, hence the Realmsian expression: “He’d loose an arrow as the wheels sing,” meaning he’s the worst sort of cad, as low as someone who’d use archery on competitors during a chariot race).
They are VERY rare in Amn, by the way, because too many important participants got murdered by those betting on such races, and the whole practice fell out of favour.
MageFairs are always held FAR from settled areas, and anyone having temerity enough to find one and try to set up any sort of mundane (or for that matter magical) trade fair nearby would be magically blasted out of profits, wares, and quite possibly life (or at least own usual body shape) in a hurry!
So saith Ed. Whew! He’s on a tear today! I suspect he’ll not be as talkative tomorrow, but who knows? Stay tuned to this thread, as always, for the latest gems of Realmslore!
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 04:03:38
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He's not human...
He's just not human... 
The man can think of more 'fluff' in an hour then most designers can in a year.
he never ceases to amaze.
Thank you for ALL those answers, not just mine. If anything is going to keep me gaming in the Realms, it's Ed.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 04:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He's not human...
He's just not human...
The man can think of more 'fluff' in an hour then most designers can in a year.
he never ceases to amaze.
Thank you for ALL those answers, not just mine. If anything is going to keep me gaming in the Realms, it's Ed.
Amen!
Ed is  to say the least!
Makes my work on Ixinos recently feel like a 5th grade essay.
More in line with "Ask Ed" I have a quick one:
Ed, is there any chance that more information about the relationship between Manshoon and Elminster can be had? I always got the feeling that Manshoon had the greatest envy about Elminster; but at the same time had a fondness for him as well. I'd love to hear anything you have to say about what has gone on/is going on between these two in YOUR game... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 05:16:15
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Hmmm... I would personally like more of Elminster, and the Seven (especially Alasarra and Qilue). Also Myrmeen Lhal, and one of my favorite characters, which I think was underused: Syrumstar Auglamyr (who may be still alive - no body, no death!). The Srinshee (perhaps with El). Oh, how about a get together of 'Elminster's daughters' - that would be excellent. And some Vangey. Maybe with some Chosen of Mystra 'meddling' in his kingdom.
By the way, I also have quite a few questions: El and the SImbul are lovers. But they aren't married, or in aformal state. would it bother The Simbul to find El with someone? And does it bother her about his daughters? If so, what would she do about it?
Is the nobility in Cormyr alawys acting like they did in Cormyr: a Novel?
How upset would Vangey be if he discovered how many of El's daughters are running around in his realm?
Why are the Obarskyrs, dating back to the time of Amedahast, such womanizers (perhaps even before. Gantharla's succesor was known as 'the Bastard', indicating that she never married)?
What percentage of the nobility in Cormyr are actually the bastards of Azoun?
Was Amedahast really killed? After all, Luthax escaped.
Did Alea Dahast keep in touch with the human members of her family?
What does the Srinshee do? She can't always be guarding the Vault of Ages. What did she do after the Fall of Myth Drannor? What did she do after it's reclamation? |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
Edited by - Menelvagor on 12 Nov 2008 11:16:08 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 06:05:08
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Srinshee!!!
:) |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 07:31:11
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?
I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.
To go through it -
1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.
If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.
What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 12 Nov 2008 07:41:58 |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 10:35:25
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Personally, I would like to see new faces brought into the Realms.
Young new heroes, villains, and anti-heroes.
I do add new characters in the adventures for LFR, but there is a limit on what you can put into an adventure - novels are better to give characters a face.
So I hope that Ed's novels will have some new young hero(in)es (and he is free to expand on some of mine ;) )
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 11:22:58
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I too would be interested in learning more of Mirt and Durnan's shared and separate past.
I'd also like to see Dove get some more... er... love, and attention. Most everyone seems to prefer the other Seven Sisters before her.
Tales of Manshoon and Halaster (and/or his heirs and apprentices) |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 11:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.
To go through it -
1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.
If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.
What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.
I wasn't aware of this. Where can I read more about this lore? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 14:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?
I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.
To go through it -
1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.
If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.
What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.
I don't have any special insight into this particular relationship; but I can say it wasn't uncommon for very young women to be taken as a ward (hostage?) by a noble and raised in his house in our own world. It is safe to say that MANY of these young girls became the mistress of this particular lord when they were older...many of them doing so to gain favor at court.
At least Asper and Mirt married.
It is weird to me too...hard to grasp in this day and age; but not so uncommon a few hundred years ago. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 15:39:12
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Hi, all.
I spoke with Ed (who's offline again this morning; darned construction workers!) and he asked me to tell Dalor Darden that Manshoon-dealing with-Elminster is NDA right now (meaning, hint hint, that eventually you WILL see something about this!!!) and to echo what Dalor said, about people in Waterdeep taking young wards, not being unusual.
Zandilar, Ed added that he quite understands your reaction, and will explain some of why he wrote what he wrote when he gets the chance to sit down at a keyboard and do it properly.
However, he agrees that what TSR let "slip through the cracks" about Mirt and Asper left him scratching his head - - especially when they nixed publishing three short stories he wrote, all "swashbuckling adventures of the daring, impish teenaged Asper in Waterdeep" wherein (as a side-thread to the Saint-like criminal hijinks that were the main plots of the stories) she, hormones raging, tried repeatedly to seduce Mirt, and he (increasingly aroused but VERY uncomfortable about feeling that way about someone he'd raised as a daughter) rebuffed her awkwardly.
I've read those tales, and the protagonist and main focus is Asper, who learns for herself what she wants (against what others want for her or to do to her), and sets about going and getting it.
She measures Mirt against nobles (old and young, of both genders) and other Waterdhavians, Lords and commoners, she meets - - and decides she prefers and wants Mirt, and no one else. So she sets about "getting him," something he gruffly resists throughout two of the tales, only to succumb in the third.
I'm not saying everyone will sympathize or agree with what Mirt does, after they read the stories, I'm just pointing out that it is NOT "parent power figure forcing himself on young vulnerable ward," but very much the other way around. Asper is very much, to use modern jargon, "self-empowered."
I'm amazed that TSR passed on the chance to publish stories showing a young female, on her own, making the choices (and doing the fast action stuff) that made her a successful adventurer. Even if the sexual elements in the third tale rule it out for publication (they do, under the Code of Ethics of the time, but the story seems very tame today), they could have published the first two. I suspect they feared fans getting fascinated with Asper (who got almost entirely left out of the published Realms) and demanding more - - whereupon "all of this dirty stuff" might have come out.
However, Ed was telling the separate moral journeys of Mirt and Asper, not dealing in "shining white good characters" and "dastardly dark villains," and emphatically NOT telling an "older male exploits younger female under his control or influence" story.
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 15:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
Does he disturb you because of Asper? Or for other reasons?
I am a somewhat open minded individual, or at least I hope I am... But the Mirt/Asper relationship really seems to take the cake.
To go through it -
1) Mirt the Merciless slaughters the people of the town that Asper was born in. This includes killing her parents (whether or not he personally wielded the sword that took their lives is beside the point).
2) In a fit of conscience, he spares the life of a female baby still in swaddling cloth (Asper).
3) He raises said child as his own (even carries her into battle on his back in a basket when she was too young to walk). He is effectively Asper's father, certainly a long term father figure in her life.
4) When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.
If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.
What disturbs me most is that no one seems to be worried by this. How this managed to get past TSR and Hasbro's family friendly policies without anyone raising a stink, I have no idea.
I know of at least one person who was formerly active here that is quite squicked by the Mirt/Asper relationship.
That said, I have seen such a thing at least one other time in fiction. In Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, the main character at one point rescues a baby girl from a fire. He raises her, and years later -- like all the female characters in the book, it seems -- she seduced him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
who'll drop in a request for more on Malchor Harpell, the only well-balanced brain in that family tree (because he wasn't dropped on his head from it, apparently)
I'll have to second that request.
I also agree with what others have already said about Mirt and his appeal. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I don't have any special insight into this particular relationship; but I can say it wasn't uncommon for very young women to be taken as a ward (hostage?) by a noble and raised in his house in our own world. It is safe to say that MANY of these young girls became the mistress of this particular lord when they were older...many of them doing so to gain favor at court.
Zandilar wasn't arguing that such a practice wouldn't have been common in the real world. She was arguing (or at least implying) that the situation in question is wrong, as in immoral. Just because "it happened" doesn't mean Zandilar is going to find it acceptable, and it wouldn't disprove her contention* that such a practice is wrong, either.
*That's how I read it, Zandilar can correct me if I'm wrong.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Nov 2008 17:20:49 |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Without further ado, heeeeeere’s Ed:
Vangelor, in reply to Zandilar, you mentioned two minor male elf characters in Elminster in Myth Drannor as possibly gay, and added: “Whether Ed can confirm this without the Morality Code Enforcers shutting us down, I cannot say.”
Well, I can and will confirm it. Those two male elves had of course (I say “of course” because of how “young elves at play” behaved in that elven society, something I gave readers a glimpse of, in the Symrustar trying to seduce Elminster scenes) experienced elven female companionship . . . but had discovered they preferred each other.
You also asked: “Ed, are there any ballads or tales popular in the Sword Coast, Heartlands, Luruar or the lands of the Dragon Reach, which celebrate famous lovers who happen to both have been male? Not that their love need to be what they are famous for, but like Achilles and Patroklos, an element of their tale to deep to omit?”
My answer is yes, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to delve into my backfiles to find examples to share with you.
Let me just name one famous couple: Baerndar and Joszryn, mercenaries who fought alongside each other for years (in the early days of humans venturing up into orc, ogre, dwarf, gnoll, and flind territories in the Dragonreach lands, the Moonsea, and north of the Moonsea), became fast friends and eventually lovers, and died fighting to protect each other.
They are remembered in short tavern-talk tales of their daring exploits, and “everyone knows” the phrase “Baern and Josz” as a shorthand verbal expression for long-established, close-knit male couples. (Who are fairly common among adventurers, mercenaries, and backland woodcutters and miners, but fairly rare elsewhere in the region. The highest number of gay male couples would probably be in the larger Sembian cities, with older males being “in the closet” types who love and make love to long-term trading partners, and younger “dashing handsome young blades” of the feasting and social whirl set being more likely to be “out.” These [“out” and “in the closet”] are of course real-world terms, NOT phrases in use in the Realms.)
Thank you, Ed. (And thank you, THO, always). Any older mentions you happen to unearth along the way are of course appreciated. I am especially glad to have my suspicion regarding those two in Elminster in Myth Drannor confirmed, even if my freedom to imagine it "my way" in playing the Realms makes it a somewhat moot point.
The lore on Baern and Josz is adequate to my immediate Roleplay-flavor needs, and fits right in with the part of the world where things are afoot right now. The notes regarding mercenaries, adventurers, etc. are pretty much as expected in an agrarian society (where children are needed hands around the farmstead and not just hungry mouths), and is a point I think was made before but is none the worse for reiteration.
The point regarding larger cities is also well taken, and makes good sense. Not because larger cities are more decadent (although that never hurts!) but because most people are much more likely to prefer the opposite sex, and it takes a certain critical mass of humanity to spawn a visible subculture, rather than just "that pair at the end of the village - closer than brothers, they are, bless them!"
It's vexing that these things require confirmation or clarification, but encouraging when fantastic authors (in all senses of the word) speak up and say "Yes, Erreth Akbe loved Maharion," (Le Guin) or, "Yes, Dumbledore and Grindelwald were more than friends," (Rowling). And it doesn't need to be the center of the story to make the world more inclusive. So thank you again for daring to go where marketing people fear to tread in the cause of showing us your world and all its complexities. It is deeply appreciated. |
Edited by - Vangelor on 12 Nov 2008 17:59:29 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:49:19
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Hello again, all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin and Zandilar,
Neither I nor Ed am arguing that what Mirt did was morally right. Mirt is a "villain struggling toward being a good guy," a struggle that unfolds slowly, and that he fights often badly and unwillingly, throughout his life.
Or to put it another way, Mirt starts out as a young, arrogant, ruthless a**hole . . . and slowly, as what he does and sees sickens him, starts to derive a personal moral code, of sorts. It's his own code, that often varies widely from the local law and from the various moral codes of the various Faerunian faiths (which in turn are often far removed from our own various real-world codes).
We should always remember that the Realms started as Ed's world (pre-TSR, pre-D&D), and he was (and is) trying to create a realistic fantasy world, of his own. As he once said to me: "If victories and right moral choices are to mean something, the alternative has to be shown and fully appreciated. And if realism is greater when you show warts and all, you have to show the warts - - and show them in something less than flippant fast action or comic-opera fashion." (He presented the example of the beheading of Conan's mother at the beginning of the Conan movie as an example of that: effective, but quick and then forgotten so all the fighting could be indulged in.)
Mirt is NOT a shining hero. He's a ruthless, capable killer who becomes a wily, successful mercenary general ("Mirt the Merciless") who sees consequences, some steps ahead, and thereby appreciates politics that keep killing (all dead are potential future clients, remember) to a minimum, and slowly starts to see and appreciate more about life.
The fat, wheezing old swindler of a Mirt Ed portrayed in his early Realms tales has the heart of gold, but not necessarily the means to express it well . . . nor the ability to always do the good (or "right") thing.
Part of the fascination of both Mirt and Asper, as characters (obvious to me as a player in Ed's campaigns), is that you never know what they'll do. If they react the way you expect them to, what they then do may (ahem, usually does) surprise you.
love,
THO |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:24:35
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The 'Change of Heart' thing is VERY popular, and makes a person a greater hero in the long run. It's easy to be a good person coming from a good background, but not so easy when you don't (take a look at Drizzt).
Not to derail this thread, but by way of RW example I was watching a talkshow that featured a young couple and the women's mother who was trying her hardest to break the couple up. Her problem with the young man was that he had been in jail, and had been in-and-out of trouble since he was a kid, mostly because of drugs. The man got up and told everyone that he had been 'clean' for three years, and couldn't understand why his mother-in-law couldn't see beyond his past.
When he announced that he had been 'clean' for three years, the entire audience got up and applauded. The old women got angry and yelled at the audience "I ain't never done no drugs! Why're aren't y'all clapping for me?!" - dead silence.
The moral is that he was far more heroic, having come from 'the dark side'. Falling to temptation is easy... coming back not so much. As for the girl - that sort of thing goes on all the time, and I'm not just talking about the 'dark ages'. You'd be surprised about how many girls steal their step-daddies from their mommas or baby-sitters wind-up with their employer. Woody Allen is not alone in the world - merely the most famous. And Toril does not have a monotheistic church breathing down everyone's back making sure they know right from wrong - it's entirely different world with different perceptions about things.
I have lots of friends from other countries, and you'd be surprised by what goes on and how young girls marry. Living in a 'modern nation' forces us to view things through our own stringent morality, which doesn't neccessarily apply to others and certainly not to people on a fantasy world.
Certainly if Mirt's intentions were bad from the start he would be cast as a villain, but he did not want the relationship, and even fought against it IIRC. I'm not saying I'm siding with him here - I have problems with it as well - but I am intelligent enough to realize these people do not live in Utah, and they have their own standards of behaviour.
I read a Sci-Fi book once where a group of humans crash-landed on a alien world, and although some of the plants were editable they had no meat. After a couple thousand years a very bizzare society arose with an upper and lower class, and women of the lower classes had to serve some time on 'the farms'. The farms, you see, is where these women were impregnated so that they could provide 'meat' for the rest of society.
Pretty goulish, and if you have problems with Mirt marrying his own foster-daughter, try wrapping you're mind around that one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:32:54
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| In childhood, Vlad "the Impaler" Tepes and his brother Radu were hostages fosted at the court of an Ottoman Sultan to assure the peaceable intentions of their father, Vlad Dracul. Vlad Tepes seems not to have had any reason to remain when he had a chance at freedom (and claiming the throne of Wallachia as a Christian prince). His half-brother, however, had become close to the Sultan's son, and chose to remain with the Turks, even ruling briefly as a client-prince of the Ottoman throne when his lover became Sultan in turn. Radu went down in history with the sobriquet "the Handsome", not "the Impale-him", however. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
who'll drop in a request for more on Malchor Harpell, the only well-balanced brain in that family tree (because he wasn't dropped on his head from it, apparently)
I'll have to second that request.
Me three! Is it possible now for a Harpell family tree to be assembled and made public through Candlekeep, or are there still NDAs in effect? On that note...
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Why is the succession document still under NDA after the publication of the lineage of succession in the GHotR and the subsequent obliteration of consistency that is the Spellplague?
Well, simply because it contains work originally created by Ed for TSR. As in, he had a bunch of Cormyr lore on the lineage of kings in that realm that was supplied for the Ol' Grey Box. That's why you got a snippet of the line of monarchs there.
Sure, there has been a huge amount of work done to the document since, and it has received constant updates as more lore has unfolded, but the kernel of the document, the skeleton as it were, belongs to TSR/WotC. We could provide you with the flesh, but we'd have to delete all the names that make up the skeleton. And that wouldn't be all that useful.
I personally think that no NDA should apply to the lineage anymore. Clearly it's unlikely to see any real use by WotC with the timejump and the advent of 4E. This is especially so considering that Cormyr is "done" now from a DDI point of view - thanks Brian (squared)!
But wiser heads than mine have to make that decision, and I'm not going to upset and annoy people like Ed and Brian by deciding to post the copy that Brian has generously provided to me to keep me in the loop.
-- George Krashos
I applaud George for his integrity on this matter... but I still want that document!  *
* - Alaundo, Sage, Wooly: We need a "bawl-your-eyes-out" whining smiley!
Is there any chance at all of the Cormyr noble lineage being made public, particularly given George's comments regarding its value post-Spellplague as "hidden lore"? This document, second only to a 3.5-era published sourcebook for Cormyr, is what I'd most like to see Wizards release for the use of fans of the Realms, and I've written off all prospects of the sourcebook with the rushing of 4e to market. I'm hoping that Ed can make my case to Wizards better than I can, as my comments on Wizards' message boards appear to be falling on deaf ears. This seems to me to be a case of withholding lore simply because they can, at this point; it would cost very little for them to make it available as a "pay-per-download" document on the website, and from what I've heard, it's far too large, lore-heavy, and specialized (not to mention anachronistic) a document for D&D Insider anyway, whose Cormyr update has already appeared.
Apologies for the length of this post; many thanks for anything you can tell me about the fate of this wonderful, must-have document! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 20:59:01
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Jakk... your new nickname is 'Nada'
as in 'NDA', and the answers you receive regarding them (in other words, NADA).
I don't think that 'everything' should be made public-knowledge, for the simple reason that it ties the hands of designer/authors, and that particular 'bondage' led to the 4e's 'lore-independent' presentation. The more they tell us, the more they paint themselves into a corner.
I'm not even a professional and I find I am loathe to release a lot of the homebrew stuff I work on, because I am always tweaking it. Once people read it, the 'fine-tuning' is over.
As for the Harpells... thats a big YES!!! I love those crazy buggers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:31:48
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I don't want *everything*... but I would like to have access to any unpublished canon lore that isn't going to be further developed, and the word from WotC is that said definition encompasses everything pre-1385 DR. If 5e employs a reset to an earlier date, then the existing lore prior to that point will be invalidated, as well as the "lore-free" environment of 4e (sorry, Ed; I can't call it a world, because it isn't one without the lore). If that lore doesn't see the light of day before being invalidated by a timeline reset, it ties our hands as DMs and, most importantly, storytellers in the shared world of the Realms.
Edit: Allow me to elaborate on my position. Mysteries about ancient places and things (like the thirteen pyramids under Ascore, the Baneblades, and the Artblade), I'm fine with leaving unanswered; of such things are great plot hooks made. Mysteries about the fates of people are something I feel differently about, given the stated intention of WotC to focus on the "present" (post-Spellplague) and its clear divorcing of the past and present with the timeline jump. We've been told by a variety of sources here, including hints from Ed via THO, that the emphasis for the novels will be on the Realms post-Spellplague, and we are unlikely to see the story of the Thronestrife come out in print in this way; I don't see WotC allowing Ed to write a novel-length "flashback" to over a millennium in the past sandwiched between a prologue and epilogue featuring King Foril. I'd love it, and I'd buy the novel in hardcover on its day of release, but I honestly don't see the story of the Thronestrife coming out in any way except the release of the Lineage document. Just my thoughts on the matter; hopefully someone 'in the know' will correct me if I'm mistaken on any of these points.
However, I can agree with Mark about not wanting to release the homebrew stuff... in my case, it's simply because I haven't been able to fact-check it all against canon, not having my 1E/2E sources with me. I have a few of them (a couple of dozen titles, most of them not relevant to my writings) in PDF format, but I can't sit and read at a screen the way I can with hard copy, and I don't have the budget for that much printer ink. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 12 Nov 2008 21:53:19 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
<snip>
Edit: Allow me to elaborate on my position. Mysteries about ancient places and things (like the thirteen pyramids under Ascore, the Baneblades, and the Artblade), I'm fine with leaving unanswered; of such things are great plot hooks made. Mysteries about the fates of people are something I feel differently about, given the stated intention of WotC to focus on the "present" (post-Spellplague) and its clear divorcing of the past and present with the timeline jump. We've been told by a variety of sources here, including hints from Ed via THO, that the emphasis for the novels will be on the Realms post-Spellplague, and we are unlikely to see the story of the Thronestrife come out in print in this way; I don't see WotC allowing Ed to write a novel-length "flashback" to over a millennium in the past sandwiched between a prologue and epilogue featuring King Foril. I'd love it, and I'd buy the novel in hardcover on its day of release, but I honestly don't see the story of the Thronestrife coming out in any way except the release of the Lineage document. Just my thoughts on the matter; hopefully someone 'in the know' will correct me if I'm mistaken on any of these points.
<snip>
Alas, Jakk, you're still thinking in terms of a fan and not in business terms. The NDA is in place in case, someday, someone decides that a book about that would make money. As long as their is a chance that money may be made, the NDA will remain in place. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:01:53
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True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this. 
Edit:
I'm being reactionary... what I would like to see is genealogical data on the Crown Royal and three Royal Families, and I would happily pay money for it; if this data could be presented in conjunction with a piece of fiction (of whatever length) describing the events of the Thronestrife, so much the better. If Wizbro wants to sit on the opportunity to make money when it's there for the taking, so be it. I just think that the idea of packaging the lineage document (minus any secrets other than the Thronestrife that are still worth keeping) and a short(ish) work of fiction by Ed chronicling the Thronestrife in a document for sale online (thereby avoiding printing and binding costs, etc.) is too good an opportunity for Wizbro to pass up. I'm more than happy to shell out the cash for the lore, so Ashe's argument doesn't really work for me. That being said, I read "Dilbert" regularly enough to know that what's logical and what's done are often very different beasts.
Thanks for putting up with my ranting. It doesn't help that I'm an obsessive detail-oriented historian of a gamer. I'm done now. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 12 Nov 2008 23:22:46 |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)
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