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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 00:05:34
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Zandilar and Rino, I happen to be browsing the Keep right now at a public library, using one of their public access Net terminals - - and I can see a copy of Swords of Dragonfire on the new book display shelves about six steps away.
I respect your not naming characters for spoiler purposes, but I have read the book. I've read about fifty books since, and I don't recall that particular scene. Any chance of a page number reference, so I can find it now and have a look at what's being discussed? Thanks! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 00:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
(For example: Azoun V ascends to the throne at 13, and he is followed by his son Foril... This after sidestepping both Tanalasta and Alusair as outright rulers in their own names.)
Tanalasta wasn't sidestepped in the transition... She was already dead, long before the Sellplague. And while I wonder why Alusair was no longer ruling when he turned 13, we don't know why she wasn't. She did rule for 13 years, after all... Maybe she stepped aside; she certainly seems like the type that would be itching to get her backside out of the throne and into a saddle. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 00:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
Zandilar and Rino, I happen to be browsing the Keep right now at a public library, using one of their public access Net terminals - - and I can see a copy of Swords of Dragonfire on the new book display shelves about six steps away.
I respect your not naming characters for spoiler purposes, but I have read the book. I've read about fifty books since, and I don't recall that particular scene. Any chance of a page number reference, so I can find it now and have a look at what's being discussed? Thanks!
It's in the last few pages, if I remember correctly.  |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 02:53:18
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Hello again, all. I bring Ed’s response to Zandilar’s recent e-mail. As it’s not far above this post, in the thread, I’ll quote just one part of it:
Warning, possible spoilers for Swords of Dragonfire follow!
There. Herewith, Ed’s reply:
Hi, Zandilar. Re. your request, first: I, too, have noticed that. I have written some strong female characters into certain new [and still NDA] source material, have no idea how much or how little influence I have, and will certainly (at least in the novels I write) continue to feature strong female characters. (For one thing, weak female characters bore me utterly.) Please watch, but have patience; we’ll have to see how long these things take to flower.
As for your Swords scene comments, here’s the truth of the matter:
X (the kissing character) is ogled but nothing more that that by most of the assembled Cormyreans because of her status (Court etiquette pertaining to visiting envoys; strictly hands off unless the visiting VIP initiates something, in the same real-world way Brits up on their court etiquette know the “Don’t speak to the Queen unless she speaks to you!” rule) and in a few cases because of personal prejudice (dirty outlander, “weird elf-touched woman; might catch something - - they all use magic! One can’t be too careful!”) or embarrassment (she’s tall and very beautiful, and has just kissed two women with enthusiasm - - that might well stop shorter, older, more shy men or women from wanting to greet her).
Whereas the male character the Cormyrean women were flinging themselves at is a young, known-to-be-unattached “local hero” of the moment (“If I dare not have the King, I can at least have the dreamily-hunky man who RESCUED him!”), one of their countrymen, whom they know to have a status that won’t get them in legal or social trouble merely for making approaches.
X bestows her first two kisses as she does for these reasons: to show EVERYONE that a certain well-deserved royal reputation is going to be useless in swaying her; that as an envoy she’s not going to be quiet, deferential to royalty, and diplomatic to the point of submerging her personality; that no one should take her for granted; that she finds the two women she kissed personally attractive (as a senior courtier in the city she’s representing, she is an active participant in what others might deem “orgies,” and regularly enjoys partners of both genders and several races, in the company of many others also participating in lovemaking) and even preferable to the person she passed by to deliver the first kiss; and (following the secret orders given her by the ruler of her city) she wants to establish firm friendships with both of the women she kissed, to act as some measure of influence on Cormyr (where her ruler has in the past failed to easily sway either Vangerdahast or the wearer of the crown through friendly overtures).
X delivers her third kiss, to the male this time (let’s call him “Y” in deference to a certain chromosome :} ) , in a surprised and delighted meeting with him: a firm friend and lover from her past, seen again after many years apart (akin to meeting your high-school sweetheart whom you lost touch with, and fate has suddenly swept right back into your arms). X is excited and delighted, and enthusiastically showing it. So, as we readers well know from our shared viewpoint closer to Y, is Y himself. A LITTLE more about their shared past will be revealed in a brief scene near the beginning of A SWORD NEVER SLEEPS (if it survives the editing process).
Not to want to give offense here, but I’m going to fling your own “tunnel vision” words back at you.
My intention here was to firmly and vividly establish X as her own person in a very few words, and to hammer home my point: relationships (and the people involved in them) are rarely as simple and clear-cut as observers may think (at first look). Real people - - and realistic characters - - have a habit of resisting, defying, or just “not fitting” labels, even sexual preferences labels. I’m not writing books featuring characters that have “straight,” “gay” or “bi” (or, I suppose: “?” or “in training”) labels on their foreheads (or, heh-heh, cheap joke, anywhere else on their bodies, either). It’s the character that matters (and my characters hopefully grow and change as fictional time passes), not her sexual category. Which, after all, should be a desirable end-goal for everyone except misogynists and those whose faiths lead them to accept only one sort of sexual expression and role.
X loves the city she serves and the ways of its ruler (and thus, the court she’s a part of), and is quite comfortable with those free-spirited ways (she relates to persons as PERSONS, not handy genitalia of this or that gender or persuasion), but Y is “unfinished business” from her past.
Note also what happens to Y’s son upon sight of X, and have a look at that scene in the upcoming third book for how THAT progresses.
I quite understand your disappointment at how you interpreted that scene (or rather, the message you believe many others will take from it). You’re right, and I’m sorry about that.
Yet that’s not the only way to interpret that scene. One game editor who’d just read SWORDS turned to me at a convention and said she loved the scene, because it made her stop and say, “Whoa! Who’s THIS? No stereotype here! What’s SHE about? Thought she was a ‘sister,’ but - - is she, now?” (Said editor is lesbian, but I suppose that’s neither here nor there.)
That’s just our first glimpse of X, remember; we will see more of her (no, no, not THAT way :} Or, well, perhaps that way too . . .).
With X, I wasn’t trying to deliver a slap to any sapphic faces. I WAS trying to tell readers the message the game editor got: this isn’t going to be the fairy tale ending you’re expecting. “Your mother’s fairytale ending,” if you will, though it would be more accurate to term it a “Father and all his drinking buddies’ expected fairytale ending.” Step past the stereotypes and labels and pay attention to the characters. Of course, it then behooves me to make the characters interesting, or the reader will ask, “Pay attention why, exactly?”
I was also trying to show the difference between the professional envoy in full control of herself and using her beauty and charm as a weapon, and the real person under that veneer, startled out into the open by a delightful apparition from her past. It’s obvious from what she says that her ruler also remembered Y, and the ruler and X discussed the possibility that X might encounter him, given the country he hailed from - - but there was alos the possibility that Y would avoid appearing at court so as NOT to see X. Instead, he’s calling her name in obvious longing, which so moves her that she lets her diplomatic mask drop.
It would be wrong to assume that X is going to do this for every man, or every handsome man, or every noble, or anyone else but this particular man from her past. Again, I can see how some might interpret the scene that way, but I am not going to write books in which every darned scene is blunt and simple and clear and overstated; I WANT the lives of my characters to be complex and nuanced and everchanging. I WANTED this scene to be capable of a variety of interpretations, because then it “works” (albeit in a variety of ways) for more readers as a “happy surprise ending” element.
Yet please don’t think I’m angered with you for bringing your reaction forward, or taking the view that you did. You raise a very valid point.
Yet I want it understood that my ambiguity was deliberate, not carelessness or a mistake or the result of editorial meddling. So was the titillation in the scene; a little winking dig at fantasy books that end with the sex scene payoff, where the “guy gets the girl.” No real sex scene, and not either of the guys everyone expected might get it.
I have included several gay characters of both genders in past Realms books, but not advertised their natures because it just wasn’t part of the story (not surprising, given the formal codes TSR and Wizards use, and the sort of stories we’re telling). Nor am I likely to be doing wild female-on-female sex scenes in a published Wizards book in the future (even if I wrote said scenes, the editors would pounce - - perhaps after enjoying the read, but they’d still pounce) that will enable me to be crystal-clear and crudely blunt about telling readers, “Hey, these two are lesbians - - see?”
I HAVE drawn criticism for including overly flowery effeminate gale male speech in scenes, yet I’ve continued to do it (usually as something to be ridiculed by another character (Torm, for instance, or Semoor of the current roster of the Knights).
Yet I don’t intend that this reply be the final word on this; feel free to respond without any fear that I’m going to be irked. As I used to say back when my knees would still allow me to fence:
Have at you, Lady fair. ;}
So saith Ed. That’s be fencing as in swords, not as in enclosing his farm fields. And he means it, Zandilar: he’s not angry or exasperated in the slightest. By all means respond.
love,
THO
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 12:18:10
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Heya,
Wow, what can I say? What an amazing answer. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it!
Oh, and before I begin again... Possible spoilers for Swords of Dragonfire!
quote:
Hi, Zandilar. Re. your request, first: I, too, have noticed that. I have written some strong female characters into certain new [and still NDA] source material, have no idea how much or how little influence I have, and will certainly (at least in the novels I write) continue to feature strong female characters. (For one thing, weak female characters bore me utterly.) Please watch, but have patience; we’ll have to see how long these things take to flower.
I have patience. At the moment, though, it consists of waiting for the FRCG to be in the store so I can flip through it. Sadly, I have no intention of buying it, and my Realms collection has officially and regretfully come to an end with my recent purchase of The Grand History of the Realms. So I suppose the request was not for myself, but for other women who might pick up the next incarnation of the Realms. Thank you for the answer, though.
quote:
X bestows her first two kisses as she does for these reasons: to show EVERYONE that a certain well-deserved royal reputation is going to be useless in swaying her; that as an envoy she’s not going to be quiet, deferential to royalty, and diplomatic to the point of submerging her personality; that no one should take her for granted; that she finds the two women she kissed personally attractive (as a senior courtier in the city she’s representing, she is an active participant in what others might deem “orgies,” and regularly enjoys partners of both genders and several races, in the company of many others also participating in lovemaking) and even preferable to the person she passed by to deliver the first kiss; and (following the secret orders given her by the ruler of her city) she wants to establish firm friendships with both of the women she kissed, to act as some measure of influence on Cormyr (where her ruler has in the past failed to easily sway either Vangerdahast or the wearer of the crown through friendly overtures).
X delivers her third kiss, to the male this time (let’s call him “Y” in deference to a certain chromosome :} ) , in a surprised and delighted meeting with him: a firm friend and lover from her past, seen again after many years apart (akin to meeting your high-school sweetheart whom you lost touch with, and fate has suddenly swept right back into your arms). X is excited and delighted, and enthusiastically showing it. So, as we readers well know from our shared viewpoint closer to Y, is Y himself. A LITTLE more about their shared past will be revealed in a brief scene near the beginning of A SWORD NEVER SLEEPS (if it survives the editing process).
Thank you. That helps put things into better perspective for me. And really, I wasn't actually offended or angered by the scene as it was portrayed, though I'm sure I probably did come across that way. I was more concerned that the wrong message might be taken from it (as I mentioned, I said I didn't think you did it deliberately).
quote:
Not to want to give offense here, but I’m going to fling your own “tunnel vision” words back at you.
I never said I was without tunnel vision myself.  I believe my words were "We all suffer from tunnel vision from time to time." That especially includes me. I am very well aware of how narrow my vision can be at times.
I happen to be very interested in the portrayal of lesbians and bisexual women in the media. In general, I expect poor portrayals because I've rarely seen good portrayals. I understand that X is a woman of many motives (as you mentioned), and I now have a better idea of what they are.
quote:
My intention here was to firmly and vividly establish X as her own person in a very few words, and to hammer home my point: relationships (and the people involved in them) are rarely as simple and clear-cut as observers may think (at first look). Real people - - and realistic characters - - have a habit of resisting, defying, or just “not fitting” labels, even sexual preferences labels. I’m not writing books featuring characters that have “straight,” “gay” or “bi” (or, I suppose: “?” or “in training”) labels on their foreheads (or, heh-heh, cheap joke, anywhere else on their bodies, either). It’s the character that matters (and my characters hopefully grow and change as fictional time passes), not her sexual category. Which, after all, should be a desirable end-goal for everyone except misogynists and those whose faiths lead them to accept only one sort of sexual expression and role.
Well I can say you've done excellent work with your characters thus far in the series. I really like Pennae, and I'm kind of wondering what becomes of her (and thinking at this point, it can't be good as she's not a part of the "modern" Knights of Myth Drannor roster). I suspect I'll see that in the next novel, though, so I won't press for details. I also like X, because despite her few page make out session with Y, I still got a brilliant first impression of her.
quote:
X loves the city she serves and the ways of its ruler (and thus, the court she’s a part of), and is quite comfortable with those free-spirited ways (she relates to persons as PERSONS, not handy genitalia of this or that gender or persuasion), but Y is “unfinished business” from her past.
Note also what happens to Y’s son upon sight of X, and have a look at that scene in the upcoming third book for how THAT progresses.
Well I am looking forward to getting The Sword Never Sleeps - probably months and months after it is released in the US. *sigh*
quote:
I quite understand your disappointment at how you interpreted that scene (or rather, the message you believe many others will take from it). You’re right, and I’m sorry about that.
Yet that’s not the only way to interpret that scene. One game editor who’d just read SWORDS turned to me at a convention and said she loved the scene, because it made her stop and say, “Whoa! Who’s THIS? No stereotype here! What’s SHE about? Thought she was a ‘sister,’ but - - is she, now?” (Said editor is lesbian, but I suppose that’s neither here nor there.)
When I wrote my post, I did so fully knowing that other people would take different things from the scenes. Hence my comment about people rising up in indignation at my words. I suppose some would label me "militant" - my other half warned me today that I might even come across like an evangelical if I'm not careful. What I'd really like to see a fair go for everyone, and while I know the world has come along way... we still have a very long way to go. We can do our part to change things with positive representation, but sometimes that can only be achieved by less ambiguity.
Now I know your writing, and I know that you didn't mean for the scenes to be read the way I wrote they could be... But if I can see it that way, then others can and will too.
We live in a world where a female character on a TV show can kiss another woman, and go back the next week to being completely straight... The kiss of the week before merely a stunt to take advantage of sweeps week. This gives people the wrong impression about homosexual women - that they're only gay until a man comes along and sets them straight. It isn't fair, but that is the way the world is right at the moment.
I should also add here that I have no problem at all with bisexual women, and I am sure there are some people who might look at my life and apply the label to me (it's a long story, which I don't want to go into right here). Bisexual women don't always end up with a male partner, because it's not about the gender of their partner at all - it's about love. This is part of the reason why I advocate for characters such as Myrmeen Lhal (whom you once declared to be a true bisexual) to have relationships with other women, just as strong and romantic and loving as relationships a heterosexual couple might have. If you only ever show a bisexual person in relationships with opposite sex partners, no one would ever think that the character was bisexual. The automatic label applied is "heterosexual"... well actually that's not really right is it? The label applied is "normal". It's tunnel vision, it's the assumption that just because the only partner a woman has had is a man, that she is only interested in men. X, from her actions in Swords of Dragonfire, may well be labeled "heteroflexible" by some, since going by the length of the kisses and the fact that she had ulterior motives in kissing the women, clearly has a stronger attachment/attraction to a male character. Myrmeen Lhal, just from what is available in print, would easily be labeled "heterosexual". This goes for many other characters of flexible sexualities in the Realms. About the only clearly lesbian couple in the Realms is Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklin - and even then, as you probably recall, there was some argument over the term "consort".
(It probably comes as no surprise that when I find Zandilar taken on a given website/forum, I use Yanseldara as my screen name - my main character in World of Warcraft is called Yanseldara.)
quote:
That’s just our first glimpse of X, remember; we will see more of her (no, no, not THAT way :} Or, well, perhaps that way too . . .).
With X, I wasn’t trying to deliver a slap to any sapphic faces. I WAS trying to tell readers the message the game editor got: this isn’t going to be the fairy tale ending you’re expecting. “Your mother’s fairytale ending,” if you will, though it would be more accurate to term it a “Father and all his drinking buddies’ expected fairytale ending.” Step past the stereotypes and labels and pay attention to the characters. Of course, it then behooves me to make the characters interesting, or the reader will ask, “Pay attention why, exactly?”
I was also trying to show the difference between the professional envoy in full control of herself and using her beauty and charm as a weapon, and the real person under that veneer, startled out into the open by a delightful apparition from her past. It’s obvious from what she says that her ruler also remembered Y, and the ruler and X discussed the possibility that X might encounter him, given the country he hailed from - - but there was alos the possibility that Y would avoid appearing at court so as NOT to see X. Instead, he’s calling her name in obvious longing, which so moves her that she lets her diplomatic mask drop.
It would be wrong to assume that X is going to do this for every man, or every handsome man, or every noble, or anyone else but this particular man from her past. Again, I can see how some might interpret the scene that way, but I am not going to write books in which every darned scene is blunt and simple and clear and overstated; I WANT the lives of my characters to be complex and nuanced and everchanging. I WANTED this scene to be capable of a variety of interpretations, because then it “works” (albeit in a variety of ways) for more readers as a “happy surprise ending” element.
Yet please don’t think I’m angered with you for bringing your reaction forward, or taking the view that you did. You raise a very valid point.
Yet I want it understood that my ambiguity was deliberate, not carelessness or a mistake or the result of editorial meddling. So was the titillation in the scene; a little winking dig at fantasy books that end with the sex scene payoff, where the “guy gets the girl.” No real sex scene, and not either of the guys everyone expected might get it.
I have included several gay characters of both genders in past Realms books, but not advertised their natures because it just wasn’t part of the story (not surprising, given the formal codes TSR and Wizards use, and the sort of stories we’re telling). Nor am I likely to be doing wild female-on-female sex scenes in a published Wizards book in the future (even if I wrote said scenes, the editors would pounce - - perhaps after enjoying the read, but they’d still pounce) that will enable me to be crystal-clear and crudely blunt about telling readers, “Hey, these two are lesbians - - see?”
I HAVE drawn criticism for including overly flowery effeminate gale male speech in scenes, yet I’ve continued to do it (usually as something to be ridiculed by another character (Torm, for instance, or Semoor of the current roster of the Knights).
Yet I don’t intend that this reply be the final word on this; feel free to respond without any fear that I’m going to be irked. As I used to say back when my knees would still allow me to fence:
Have at you, Lady fair. ;}
Well my weight and fitness level no longer allows me to fence, but if I ever do manage to get them under control, I may well try to pick it up again, as well as as many different sword styles as I can. I love swords.
But on topic, while it might not seem like it, I do understand where you're coming from. I like to think of myself as a writer too, so I understand the need to reveal slowly, to make characters more than just one or even two dimensional. But as a feminist and a lesbian, I feel that you can do so without appearing to play into the stereotypes (note, I said appearing).
quote:
So saith Ed. That’s be fencing as in swords, not as in enclosing his farm fields. And he means it, Zandilar: he’s not angry or exasperated in the slightest. By all means respond.
I'm not angry either. Let's just say I felt frustrated by the scene. I feel like I got teased, then let down before the pay off. I can't help but wonder whether or not X's kissing the women would have been published without her kissing Y the way she did... |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 01:11:07
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| I just want to say, I'm very much enjoying the exchange between Zandilar and Ed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 02:41:09
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Well met again, Milady THO, and thank you for the latest answers you and Ed so swiftly provided! 
*Ahem*, I know that I promised not to ask anything for a while, but I hope that these "easy" (?) questions will not add too much burden to Ed's evergrowing pile of Realmslore queries :)
1) I, too, would like to know where a certain portal in Drawn Swords leads to -- as Kuje suggested, it might be best if that answer is not given here "in public". Would it be too bold, if I asked you to PM me?
2) The Reaching Woods and Northdark Woodd (the latter now vanished on the 3E maps) are not very detailed -- which sort of ruins and creatures and wonders are hidden in their depths? Anything related to Netheril? (I know about the Talfiric ruins of Talis, but is there
3) The village of Drawn Swords is vanished on the altered 3E maps, which is not problematic in itself, but the Northdark Woods has also vanished and the whole are has undergone major changes (i.e. become a lot smaller it was in 2E) which has led to many of the villages and cities and geographical features "shifting" weirdly on the map -- so, my question is: where would you relocate Drawn Swords on the 3E FR map? Perhaps on the easternmost "tip"/edge of the Trielta hills? Or closer to Yarthrain?
4) Is it more typical for urban inns to have a stable and/or coach house than not? Or do they just tell you that "Ol' Tharrask's stables lie yonder, just two blocks away along the Mistride"? And, are inns typically/usually built within a "compound" (i.e. with walls surrounding the inn grounds)?
5) Does 'farrier' -- as a profession -- exist in the Realms? Or do blacksmiths take care of shoeing your horse? Also, is it possible to buy tack/saddlery/harness/supplies and have your horse shoed at a stable, rather than buy these services/stuff from a leatherworker, blacksmith or tack-and-harness shop?
6) Is it typical to build houses/buildings on bridges in the Realms? This question was prompted by the computer game 'Baldur's Gate 2' (which featured Athkatla) and I've also seen pictures of (the 17th Century?) Paris with bridges being crammed with tall houses.
7) Another "city" question: why do some cities have suspiciously lot of "empty" space in the center of the city blocks? In comparison to Waterdeep (especially the Dock Ward) there seems to be a lot of "wasted" building space in some cities. Is there a purpose to it, or is it due to TSR/WoTC cartographers "leaving" buildings out? Or are there "smaller" buildings that are just not shown on the map (e.g. wellhouses, outhouses) or left for parks/gardens? Or are they meant as "courtyards" or "inner yards"?
My apologies for yet another weird bunch of unrelated queries ;) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 09:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
1) I, too, would like to know where a certain portal in Drawn Swords leads to -- as Kuje suggested, it might be best if that answer is not given here "in public". Would it be too bold, if I asked you to PM me?
Seems a bit unfair, has THO time to PM everyone as I am sure everyone would be interested?
Just wondering
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 10:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
1) I, too, would like to know where a certain portal in Drawn Swords leads to -- as Kuje suggested, it might be best if that answer is not given here "in public". Would it be too bold, if I asked you to PM me?
Seems a bit unfair, has THO time to PM everyone as I am sure everyone would be interested?
Just wondering
Damian
I was just echoing Kuje's words as he wished that this information is not given openly on this thread :) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 18:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
1) I, too, would like to know where a certain portal in Drawn Swords leads to -- as Kuje suggested, it might be best if that answer is not given here "in public". Would it be too bold, if I asked you to PM me?
Seems a bit unfair, has THO time to PM everyone as I am sure everyone would be interested?
Just wondering
Damian
I was just echoing Kuje's words as he wished that this information is not given openly on this thread :)
And as I said, if it was going to cause problems, then it's fine if it was publicly posted but some of us do have players from this site and so I was only asking. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 19:06:03
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Hello, all. I bring the latest words of Ed, this time a Realmslore reply to this query from PaulBestwick: “Hello first time posting a queation to Ed. In a thread in the Running the Realms section of these esteemed hall I posted a question about Uthmere and the Western End of the Great Dale. The most gracious THO was able to recall a series of articles penned by your good self on Uthmere and posted on the WOTC website. I have a few questions relating to the area. What is the approximate size of the three nearby settlements, Solin, Eastwatch and Lethgate? Do these places mark the furthest extent of Lord Uthlains direct influence? Is there a minor nobility in the area that owe fealty to Lord Uthlain and as such are the rulers of these small settlements?”
Ed replies:
The three settlements, plus a patrolled area of a quarter days’ ride outwards from them (mounted patrols of seven to nine “Hawk Guards,” so-named for the beak-nose, swept sallet back neckcovering shape of the helms they wear; their official title, which no one but Uth courtiers ever use, is “Trusted Lawblade”), do indeed roughly mark the extent of Lord Uthlain’s direct influence, though individuals living nearby but outside this unofficial territory can and do on occasion bring disputes and complaints to Uthmere, to see if “something can be done.” (Most “calls upon the Uth Lord” are to deal with neighbours’ feuds over boundary lines, and marauding monsters or raiding packs of beasts.)
Solin is a market town (and fishing and clam-digging port) of around 2,200 folk; Eastwatch and Lethgate are smaller, at about 1,300 each (all have recently grown greatly in population, as local peace and strengthening temples and the health care they bring, combined with an influx of persons fleeing strife elsewhere, have swelled local ranks).
Solin is ruled by its “elders,” a council of the foremost (wealthiest) dozen or so merchants, who are very much an “old boys’ network,” tempered by some local priests who head the small local temples and function as a sort of unofficial opposition. Uthmere long ago established (and continues to sponsor) a local herald, Staghorns, in Solin to serve as an observer for Lord Uthlain as well as performing the usual duties of heralds (genealogies, witnesses and retaining copies of contracts, heraldry, etc.).
Staghorns is a tall, quiet, careful retired adventurer (fighter) who is an avid (backyard) gardener and whose weekly written reports to Lord Uthlain very much resemble a broadsheet (newspaper), except that they are private (that is, read only by Uthlain and his courtiers, not “secret hush-hush”). He is supported by, and has a good working relationship with, Shieldmaster Orn Ghallow, a middling-level fighter installed by Uthmere to head the Solin garrison of sixteen Hawk Guards (they do more road patrols than policing, but Ghallow will use them as in-town lawkeepers if he sees the need).
There are constant local rumors of smuggling and “evil from Telflamm and afar” and suchlike being active in town, but neither Ghallow nor Staghorns has uncovered anything definite.
Eastwatch is ruled by Shieldlord Eskyn Raker, who is a middling-level fighter installed by Uthmere to head the Eastwatch garrison of sixteen Hawk Guards. Raker prefers to rule lightly, concentrating on patrols outside the walls and conferring behind closed doors with the local blacksmith, tavernmaster, and innkeeper (who is also the local moneylender) on all local disputes and decisions. He is married to a well-educated Uth lass of some wealth named Jalarra Preskrol, are starting a family, and COULD be considered local nobility if they ever behaved as such; they do host the grandest feasts, in the most ornate “great rooms” of their modest mansion, in Eastwatch. Yet they lack the sense of entitlement, of being “different/better” than the folk of Eastwatch, and of course lack the “generations of our ancestors have dwelt in this house on this land” thinking and self-righteousness. Eastwatch is dominated by herb-farming, mixed farming, and small-herd ranching.
Lethgate, a lumbering and mixed farming center, has a similar ruling arrangement to Eastwatch: an Uthmere-installed Shieldlord who tries to defer to prominent locals (in this case, the tavernmaster and three aging widows who own the three local sawmills and carpentry shops, which are run by their numerous and vigorous, hard-living sons) in matters of local governance. Shieldlord Eskultar Ramekhorn is an elderly retired fighter who commands the local garrison of eighteen Hawk Guards, trains a local militia of Foresters (primarily against raiding forest beasts, but also with an eye out for trouble coming north from Telflamm, whose less savoury elements have a habit of trying to hide persons kidnapped for ransom in outlying local steadings and forest huts). Ramekhorn has no wife nor children, and behaves more like (and is locally regarded as more akin to) a Black Robe (judge) than nobility.
So saith Ed, master of Realmslore, returning at last to the sort of lore reply we all enjoy. Not that he’s out of the proverbial woods yet with his official Realms writing, nor that he’s forgotten Zandilar!
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 19:10:34
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This just in!
Addendum from Ed: Staghorns uses a triangular banner (point downwards) of midnight black, with a pair of white antlers on it. Instead of a skull or head where they meet, there's a descending, straight vertical line of four (different from each other, of course) snowflakes.
love to all,
THO |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 19:16:55
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This latest pair of posts raises a question (or two):
How well/often does Staghorns communicate with the other heralds scattered across Faerûn? If a conflict ever arose between his orders from Uthmere and the rules or decrees of the Heralds, who would he obey?
Thanks!
BB |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:02:42
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Hello All,
Ed can you tell us of any regions in which the kenku hold sway or have a noticeable presence, I was rereading realms novel about Astride the Wind's clan and I'm seeking more info about them in general?
Do all kenku in faerun fly or have some lost the ability?
Also if not NDA, what effect will the spellplague have on artifacts? Will they function erractically as magic runs wild and then return to normal as plague lessens or will they be warped by the destruction of the weave?
Here's my wishes that the Shrinshree survives all of this. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 02:24:18
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Well met again, fellow scribes! I bring Ed’s latest response to Zandilar, in the matter of that contentious scene at the end of Swords of Dragonfire.
Which means, first, that I should warn once more:
Possible spoilers for Swords of Dragonfire!
Rather than quoting Zandilar’s entire last post, I shall present Ed’s post, complete with HIS quotings of Zandilar, and replies. So without further ado, heeeeere’s Ed:
Hi, Zandilar. Always a pleasure to talk Realms with you. So here I am. :}
I understand and respect your decision about buying future Realms products. I AM glad you will at least be flipping through the FRCG, having a look. NDAs prevent me from saying much about its contents, but I will venture this much: a big chunk of what I wrote would be useful to anyone playing a Realms campaign set at any time, using any rules system. Said chunk could be plucked up and plunked down into play, whenever but not wherever. (I so much want to say more, but I can’t). So please give the new stuff that flip through and look, at least.
I also quite understand and agree with you about expecting poor betrayals of lesbian and bisexual female characters because that’s what you usually see.
Pennae is bisexual, but has sex with men more than with women because she often uses sex as a weapon or tool for getting what she wants, and more men than women have things she wants to steal or exploit - - whereas she tends to have sex with women for sheer pleasure and companionship. I’m not saying she hates men, it’s just that she knows she can gain power over men with sex, and uses that. I won’t give away her fate, although it was mentioned in published Realmslore (long ago), and unless things change drastically she won’t meet it in THE SWORD NEVER SLEEPS. As the Knights are during these three books, she’s the most experienced, street-smart, and capable adventurer among them, and nothing is going to erode that strength. What I chafe over is the lack of good opportunities, given the fast action and fighting inherent in these sorts of books, of showing more sides of her character; she tends to come across as the defiant veteran with the sharp tongue, and too often, not much more.
I’m glad you like X, too, because the whole key to her career (in the profession we see her in) is her very real charisma and sunny nature. Yes, she can control her face, voice, and words as skillfully as any really top-notch diplomat, but she’s so good at being charming and at ease and er, unbuttoned because she really IS all of those things. So that “brilliant first impression” you speak of is what she excels at providing. :}
During my recent visit to Oz, I learned of the so-called “free trade” pact signed with the U.S. (up here in Canada, we foolishly got one too) and of its effect on discontinuing the old “simultaneous release or you have no Australian copyright protection” practice that was in effect back when I was doing my ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE publicity tour. I am as disgusted as all Australians must be at your having to wait for novels and game releases; it should still be simultaneous!
As for the “homosexual women are only gay until a man comes along and sets them straight” notion; yep, very strong in some quarters in North America, too, and even those who don’t personally believe that view often play that stance in scripting television shows and the like because they are afraid of hurting sales by arousing a puritanical backlash amongst more right-wing religious people if they don’t do so. As you say, they can titillate with the gal-on-gal kiss and then have Mr. Right (or just Mr. Sufficiently Hunky) step into the room and “rescue” the gals by having them “come to their senses now that they’ve seen a REAL man.” (I know you see things from a lesbian female vantage point, but consider for just a moment how cruel that message is to most GUYS, too: “So, Mr. Couch Potato Nerd, Watching This Show, Just Remember That You’re Not Mr. Right And Never Will Be, Or Women Would Be Throwing Themselves At You All The Time, Just Like This Character - - And They’re Not, Are They? Hmm, Loser?”
As for Myrmeen Lhal, there’s ANOTHER character I haven’t ever had the time to properly get under the skin of (er, tell an in-depth story about). And probably won’t get the chance to, now. (Online slash fiction, here I come. Oops, no time to write THAT, either.)
When writing Realms fiction and game material, we have to get things past editors, and editors are always concerned with producing the best possible product that time, wordcount, and so on will allow. “Best” as in selling, too, and that means not pissing off any segment of the buying public without darned good reasons. So if we have a lesbian couple, like Yanseldara and Vaerana, we’ll use words like “consort” to inform readers but to avoid rubbing anyone’s noses in it. (So someone who is deeply offended by anything other than traditional heterosexual roles could rationalize that away by saying, “It’s nothing sexual. It’s gotta just be part of the way that place is governed; they have two women, who rule in shifts, one sleeps while the other’s decreeing. And they’re married to the throne, really, both of them, and so they’re ‘consorts.’ Yeah, that’s it!” Works for them, doesn’t matter to the rest of us, and we can all go on using the published Realms offerings to play in our own versions of the Realms, as happily as before.)
As I said recently, in an interview in Wolf’s excellent KOBOLD QUARTERLY, we should by and large delve into the sexuality of characters only as it relates to plot, and as we’re not publishing porn, that means a lot of ignoring or glossing over sexuality: it’s not directly germane to the tales we’re telling.
I quite understand when you take the view that “as a feminist and a lesbian, I feel that you can do so without appearing to play into the stereotypes (note, I said appearing).” My point is that I can play into the stereotypes for the camouflage necessary to get it through editing and out into print in a form that we can explain away if someone REALLY takes offense (and remember, I’m talking banning an offending book from some states or store chains altogether; YES, it still happens), but that allows the rest of us to see what’s REALLY being said. I understand your irritation that such games still have to be played, in this day and age. Yet (unfortunately) they do.
However, I can directly refute this: “I can't help but wonder whether or not X's kissing the women would have been published without her kissing Y the way she did...”
My editor on the book was DELIGHTED with X, and made a point of telling me so right off the top, upon reading the first draft (which then lacked the Epilogue because the tale was unfinished, and so wasn’t ready for a wrap-up, and thus didn’t have that kiss with Y at all). She LOVED the surprise of X’s kissing the women rather than the royal personage everyone was expecting to get the first and best attention of her ardent lips (er, so to speak :}).
And that’s it from me, this time around.
I WILL discuss being more explicit with same-sex characters in future Realms fiction with the Books folks, and see if the lines have shifted. However, the answer may be “no,” or the shift may not be in a direction that pleases you. We’ll see.
I can say that a certain Book person winced visibly when a marketing person from another company, at a Book Expo American event, asked teasingly if they were ready to publish “Ed unbuttoned,” yet. :}
So saith Ed. Who assures me he’s buttoned up, as I type this.
Shocking, simply shocking, the things we discuss at Candlekeep!  I’m getting so hot and bothered, I may just have to take some things off! 
love to all,
THO
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 04:09:47
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Thanks for that frank answer, Ed (and THO)! It helps set the Realms apart, for me, if the customs, common attitudes and so on can be shown to differ from our own world.
And I agree that an unnecessary emphasis on sexuality where it is not significant to the story is a detraction rather than a merit in fiction. I only hope that we won't see things like, say (to borrow from Classical myth) Patroklos being portrayed as the cousin of Achilles to explain why the hero was so angered by his death, or the omission of Herakles from the voyage of the Argonauts rather than explain that he abandoned the quest out of grief when Hylas was drowned. That is, there are times when the bond between characters is a plot point, and I hope these won't be glossed over simply because they are not mainstream.
My questions for Ed regard elves. What term or title is given in elven to the heir of a house or clan, or to its designated speaker or envoy to a council or what have you?
And, with the end of the Retreat, is there a change in how elves who are still present and active in Faerun approach the other races? Or is this a matter still of individual elves acting as suits their own goals and ideas best?
Thanks again!
Edit - Just found a May 2007 reply from Ed giving me the term mraerital for a speaker or envoy, so no need to repeat that particular question. Still curious about house/clan heirs, and how these are called. |
Edited by - Vangelor on 24 Jan 2008 16:49:18 |
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coastiemike
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 04:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello, all. coastiemike, I sent your query off to Ed, who must have been camped on his computer, because he sent a reply back right away. Here 'tis:
Hi, coastiemike. There's no such thing as an "official flower" for Silverymoon, BUT there's only one flower that anyone in Silverymoon would consider using or wearing in such a ceremony. It's called either "blueshine" or "moonflower," and is a tiny white tulip-shaped flower surrounded by six triangular green leaves. The green leaves glow a vivid blue when touched by moonlight, and the white flower glows a pearly white - - and long, long ago, Silvaeren spellcasters devised a simple cantrip that duplicates moonlight closely enough to make these flowers glow under all lighting conditions, when it's applied to them.
So saith Ed. And there you have it . . .
love,
THO
Edit: Ed neglected to mention that this flower grows wild all over the Dessarin valley, among what's called "snowdrift" (a ground-hugging flower that looks like white clover). This comes from my own notes, jotted down during play over the years.
I figured since Mr. Greenwood answered the question so quickly, I'd post the link to a chapter in a campaign journal that the player who requested the info used the info to incoporate it in her character. I hope you enjoy the reading. Also, feel free to take a look at the rest of her "Diary of a Wanderlust Halfling" if you'd like to know of the history of our game. The link is found at http://guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=47452&TabID=507692&ChapterID=13379 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 04:59:07
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Hey, Ed.
I personally know that you're very confident of your Realms Manifesto. I.e. that "sexual labels" as we know them Post-Kinsey (and he wasn't a real fan of them himself from what I remember) don't quite exist. Harems in Calisham will have boys and girls without anyone batting an eyelash and there's no real stigma towards any kind of favored love (though one might make a question as to how the typical heritage issues are handled with a gay man or woman---probably a "buckle up and bear it" attitude).
But out of pure curiosity, as I prepare for 4E and we move on, were any notable Realms personalities amongst MEN bisexual or gay? [Note: I understand the following is oversimplifying] We know that Alusair favored men but indulged herself with women, Penai is bisexual, Caladnei is nominally straight but makes an exception for Alusair, Quenthel is winning no one's award for a positive lesbian role-model, Eli's clergy seems rather high on female-female love, and the Seven Sisters are....well the Seven Sisters....
But not too much on the guy end (no pun intended).
Elminster seems to decidedly have his own experiments with multitudes of sexual experience (though he and Lhao were just pretending---I think) but I don't think we really have that many examples of guy NPCs whose tastes tend to favor the male. Zandilar's query brought this up but it also showed up in my games.
(I doubt Ed or anyone else on this boards wants to hear the transcript of my Gaming Group getting into a spontaneous discussion of sexuality amongst the Demihuman races and cultures of the Realms----notedly it lasted 10 minutes)
So, want to tell? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 09:47:28
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Hello Ed and the Hooded One. A happy new year if I haven't said so already.
This should be a simple question (I hope).
In one of the "deity-books" (can't remember which one, but I think Faiths & Pantheons it says that dancing is a common artform among the clergy of Sune. Would it, based on that statement, be wrong to assume that, in at least some of the Sunite congregations, dancing have become part of some or maybe even all religious ceremonies?
(For anyone interested in what I'm getting at, the thing that got me thinking about this was a TV-program about Balinese temple-dancers.) |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 12:26:34
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Heya,
quote:
Possible spoilers for Swords of Dragonfire!
And still more possible spoilers... but maybe not as much as before...
quote:
Hi, Zandilar. Always a pleasure to talk Realms with you. So here I am. :}
And always appreciated. :) Thank you again.
quote:
I understand and respect your decision about buying future Realms products. I AM glad you will at least be flipping through the FRCG, having a look. NDAs prevent me from saying much about its contents, but I will venture this much: a big chunk of what I wrote would be useful to anyone playing a Realms campaign set at any time, using any rules system. Said chunk could be plucked up and plunked down into play, whenever but not wherever. (I so much want to say more, but I can’t). So please give the new stuff that flip through and look, at least.
I will definitely take a look, you've piqued my curiosity. Also, today I realized I had lied about my collection ending - Arriving on my doorstep not more than an hour hour ago (from when I first started to write this reply, that is) was a 1st Edition FR Campaign Set I recently bought on eBay... Years ago I sold my original, not having much time for the setting at the time, but have regretted it a lot since then... Maybe I'll be buying more 1st Edition and 2nd Edition products, just to fill out and maybe complete my collection one day (I really only started collecting FR with 3rd Edition, as it gave me a good place to start).
quote:
Pennae is bisexual, but has sex with men more than with women because she often uses sex as a weapon or tool for getting what she wants, and more men than women have things she wants to steal or exploit - - whereas she tends to have sex with women for sheer pleasure and companionship. I’m not saying she hates men, it’s just that she knows she can gain power over men with sex, and uses that. I won’t give away her fate, although it was mentioned in published Realmslore (long ago), and unless things change drastically she won’t meet it in THE SWORD NEVER SLEEPS. As the Knights are during these three books, she’s the most experienced, street-smart, and capable adventurer among them, and nothing is going to erode that strength. What I chafe over is the lack of good opportunities, given the fast action and fighting inherent in these sorts of books, of showing more sides of her character; she tends to come across as the defiant veteran with the sharp tongue, and too often, not much more.
I guess that doesn't bode well for her.  Any chance you could give me a hint where to look in Realmslore for it? I spotted a mention of her in the entry for the Knights of Myth Drannor in the 1st Edition Cyclopedia, but it said nothing of her fate, just said she was no longer a member and didn't give a reason.
I can see how the typical DnD novel style/pace would be detrimental to much character development, but despite that I still like her. She's pretty spunky (gods that's an old word!).
quote:
I’m glad you like X, too, because the whole key to her career (in the profession we see her in) is her very real charisma and sunny nature. Yes, she can control her face, voice, and words as skillfully as any really top-notch diplomat, but she’s so good at being charming and at ease and er, unbuttoned because she really IS all of those things. So that “brilliant first impression” you speak of is what she excels at providing. :}
I look forward to seeing more of her in the next novel, though I suspect that she will be overshadowed by the main characters (as well she should).
Which brings me to think of NDAs... Once 4th Edition Realms is published, is there any chance that some of the NDAs pertaining to current (as in pre-TGHotR) 3rd Edition Realms might be lifted?
quote:
During my recent visit to Oz, I learned of the so-called “free trade” pact signed with the U.S. (up here in Canada, we foolishly got one too) and of its effect on discontinuing the old “simultaneous release or you have no Australian copyright protection” practice that was in effect back when I was doing my ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE publicity tour. I am as disgusted as all Australians must be at your having to wait for novels and game releases; it should still be simultaneous!
Now this, I didn't know about.  All of a sudden we stopped getting things when the US did, and for no apparent reason. I only really noticed it when I tried to buy TGHotR last year when everyone else in America had it - and I kept looking and looking and asking about it, but no joy until January! Maybe I'll have to order my copy of the Annotated Elminster direct from the US (and any further novels I want to buy... I think I'll also have to call my FLGS and ask them if they're going to get 4th Edition stuff at the same time as the US.)
quote:
As for the “homosexual women are only gay until a man comes along and sets them straight” notion; yep, very strong in some quarters in North America, too, and even those who don’t personally believe that view often play that stance in scripting television shows and the like because they are afraid of hurting sales by arousing a puritanical backlash amongst more right-wing religious people if they don’t do so. As you say, they can titillate with the gal-on-gal kiss and then have Mr. Right (or just Mr. Sufficiently Hunky) step into the room and “rescue” the gals by having them “come to their senses now that they’ve seen a REAL man.” (I know you see things from a lesbian female vantage point, but consider for just a moment how cruel that message is to most GUYS, too: “So, Mr. Couch Potato Nerd, Watching This Show, Just Remember That You’re Not Mr. Right And Never Will Be, Or Women Would Be Throwing Themselves At You All The Time, Just Like This Character - - And They’re Not, Are They? Hmm, Loser?”
You know what? I've never thought of it that way. But that really could include heterosexual females as well. At least the ones who throw themselves all over the hunky men. (Did I really just use that term? Ugh! *shudder*) Bias in the media does effect everyone in the end.
quote:
As for Myrmeen Lhal, there’s ANOTHER character I haven’t ever had the time to properly get under the skin of (er, tell an in-depth story about). And probably won’t get the chance to, now. (Online slash fiction, here I come. Oops, no time to write THAT, either.)
I gave her the beginnings of a happy ending in a fan fiction I wrote (and yes, it was with a woman). Perhaps I'll post it to my LiveJournal one day for all the world to see. I'd ask if you would like to read it, but I suspect given the amount of time you have to yourself, not to mention the legal issues of an author viewing fan fiction based on their work (not wanting to be seen to steal ideas etc), would probably prevent you from being able to say "yes".
quote:
When writing Realms fiction and game material, we have to get things past editors, and editors are always concerned with producing the best possible product that time, wordcount, and so on will allow. “Best” as in selling, too, and that means not pissing off any segment of the buying public without darned good reasons. So if we have a lesbian couple, like Yanseldara and Vaerana, we’ll use words like “consort” to inform readers but to avoid rubbing anyone’s noses in it. (So someone who is deeply offended by anything other than traditional heterosexual roles could rationalize that away by saying, “It’s nothing sexual. It’s gotta just be part of the way that place is governed; they have two women, who rule in shifts, one sleeps while the other’s decreeing. And they’re married to the throne, really, both of them, and so they’re ‘consorts.’ Yeah, that’s it!” Works for them, doesn’t matter to the rest of us, and we can all go on using the published Realms offerings to play in our own versions of the Realms, as happily as before.)
It is still very frustrating. I have written a novel I'd very much like to get published somewhere, but unless I go for a niche publisher (one that caters to a queer audience), I have serious doubts I'll ever get it published. My mother and other half both insist that I should try mainstream publishers, but when you have as many lesbian or bisexual characters as this novel has (five fairly major characters at last count)... It's dead in the water, me thinks...
The novel, by the way, is by no means pornographic. There's about as much romance as you'd find in a fantasy novel series, and the sexualities of these characters come up because they have partners. This is why I'm always confused when people (as you have in your post) say things like this:
quote:
As I said recently, in an interview in Wolf’s excellent KOBOLD QUARTERLY, we should by and large delve into the sexuality of characters only as it relates to plot, and as we’re not publishing porn, that means a lot of ignoring or glossing over sexuality: it’s not directly germane to the tales we’re telling.
Character A and Character B are involved with each other. The outward signs you see in the story are the fact that sometimes they exchange a kiss, or they might hold hands, or they may even refer to the other with an affectionate nick name. That's what I mean by showing a character's sexuality. You don't need to get into blow by blow sex scenes to show a character's sexuality. If A and B were opposite sex partners, the kinds of things I've mentioned wouldn't even attract a raised eyebrow! But if A and B are the same sex, then all bets are off! A and B holding hands as they walk down the street may as well be as "dirty" as a full on pornographic description of them in bed together! This hand holding and kissing could even be incidental to the story, just something that occurs naturally in the scene - a way of giving extra depth to the characters. If A were in the novel on their own, and was queer, then we'd have no way to know what their sexuality is... But not every character in every novel need be single!
quote:
I quite understand when you take the view that “as a feminist and a lesbian, I feel that you can do so without appearing to play into the stereotypes (note, I said appearing).” My point is that I can play into the stereotypes for the camouflage necessary to get it through editing and out into print in a form that we can explain away if someone REALLY takes offense (and remember, I’m talking banning an offending book from some states or store chains altogether; YES, it still happens), but that allows the rest of us to see what’s REALLY being said. I understand your irritation that such games still have to be played, in this day and age. Yet (unfortunately) they do.
Well I have to give you that, given my own suspicions regarding the publication of my own novel.
Thank you for sneaking in what you can!
Going back to what you said about Yanseldara and Vaerana earlier in your post, that's a very round about way to explain the use of the term consort. It might be easier for the denier to just assume the word consort was used in the same sense as cohort - if they can ignore all the other instances of the word consort as used in the Realms!
quote:
However, I can directly refute this: “I can't help but wonder whether or not X's kissing the women would have been published without her kissing Y the way she did...”
My editor on the book was DELIGHTED with X, and made a point of telling me so right off the top, upon reading the first draft (which then lacked the Epilogue because the tale was unfinished, and so wasn’t ready for a wrap-up, and thus didn’t have that kiss with Y at all). She LOVED the surprise of X’s kissing the women rather than the royal personage everyone was expecting to get the first and best attention of her ardent lips (er, so to speak :}).
Excellent. I always like it when I'm proven wrong on these things! Sometimes I'm too cynical for my own good.
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And that’s it from me, this time around.
I WILL discuss being more explicit with same-sex characters in future Realms fiction with the Books folks, and see if the lines have shifted. However, the answer may be “no,” or the shift may not be in a direction that pleases you. We’ll see.
I can say that a certain Book person winced visibly when a marketing person from another company, at a Book Expo American event, asked teasingly if they were ready to publish “Ed unbuttoned,” yet. :}
 Well I hope for some steps in the right direction, but expect status quo... and I think we'd all like to see "Ed unbuttoned"... err... the novel, that is.
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So saith Ed. Who assures me he’s buttoned up, as I type this.
Shocking, simply shocking, the things we discuss at Candlekeep! I’m getting so hot and bothered, I may just have to take some things off!
You're such a tease, my lady THO. 
Edit: Oh, and I nearly forgot... I echo Charles Phipps's question! I'd like to see that answer too. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 21 Jan 2008 12:27:54 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 13:09:37
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quote:
It is still very frustrating. I have written a novel I'd very much like to get published somewhere, but unless I go for a niche publisher (one that caters to a queer audience), I have serious doubts I'll ever get it published. My mother and other half both insist that I should try mainstream publishers, but when you have as many lesbian or bisexual characters as this novel has (five fairly major characters at last count)... It's dead in the water, me thinks...
As a fellow writer, I wish you the best! I try to insert a lot of non-traditional arrangements into my works to liven up things because I think they're important. My first attempts at writing were just typical male fantasy stuff with a philandering lead but then I realize; well what if I make other cast members guy, have the females equally philandering, and insert some other issues. I think they make the stories better.
(Though, like Ed, I'll probably have hundreds of novels in my house by the time my career ends but *unlike him*....very few of them read by anyone)
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Going back to what you said about Yanseldara and Vaerana earlier in your post, that's a very round about way to explain the use of the term consort. It might be easier for the denier to just assume the word consort was used in the same sense as cohort - if they can ignore all the other instances of the word consort as used in the Realms!
Yes, that's pretty clear. But I was always annoyed by this description as well, rather than happy about it. Primarilly because my reaction went something like "Hmmmm, interesting. There's a gay couple in the Realms." and then pause "Is there anything else about these people, anywhere?"
*Jeopardy theme plays*
I was disappointed that there was only a short mention of them and no more details! I actually was interested in sending my player characters there just because of the happy couple! It may be odd but I'm interested in the Realm's gay characters. I wanted to know more about Llirra's brief girlfriend too!
I always get annoyed that Comic Book Editors have realized that most of their fans are adults but D&D, made for college students, never has quite shaken the idea that other companies have embraced that it should be for adults (Like a certain Albino Doggie company has). Under Hasbro, that's unlikely to change.
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If A were in the novel on their own, and was queer, then we'd have no way to know what their sexuality is... But not every character in every novel need be single!
I'm reminded of the Homosexual Pirate in R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt series. The "evidence" was she wore Men's clothing and refused the advances of a scumbag. On Earth, let alone the Realms that doesn't qualify for subtext!
If Buffy can do it, the Realms should be able to.
But overall, Ed, we all appreciate your attempts to navigate the Editor and their chainsaw. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 14:03:14
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I think when one reads Ed, they had best leave their glasses(be they rose colored or not!), Blinders, pre-conceptions and and expectations (besides a fun, informative read) at the door.
I do not think that you can fit Ed in to a box of any shape as he is far to multi-faceted! You can however do so with an editor with their rigidity(often forced by society) they will fit into any box roughly 2 inches by 4, 5 to 6 feet long!
That is were I place any frustrations I have with his work. Then when I remember I can Ask him and get the "real deal" straight from the Horses mouth (sorry for the Mr. Ed parralel), I let it slide away and come here to read his scroll!
Thanks Again Ed.
P.S. And the innuendo, humor and sexiness of THO is just an added bonus and in no way influence me to read your scroll |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 14:14:41
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Just a quick literary suggestion for anyone who wants to read a fantasy(ish) novel with Gay/Bi/Lesbian/? characters in many of the lead roles: Swordpoint, The Fall of the Kings, and The Privilege of the Sword. All by Ellen Kushner (although Fall was co-written with her partner Delia Sherman.
It's no Sword & Sorcery, but the language is brilliant, and the characters come of as "real" for the most part.
Right...Off Topic transmission ends here. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 21 Jan 2008 14:15:27 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 15:20:28
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Actually, it's not really off-topic. Ed voted for PRIVILEGE when judging the World Fantasy Awards, last year, as it happens. So there is a strange roundabout, back door Ed Greenwood link.
Some great posts here, folks, and all of them have been whisked off to Ed. Who is still frantically pounding that keyboard, but starting to smile from time to time. When I asked him why, he said, "Light at end of tunnel visible again - - and I have more up my sleeves than just my arms."
Ho HO. Must personally check . . .
love to all,
THO |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Mandras
Seeker
Estonia
51 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello, all. Mandras, let me try to provide what little information I can on the Mirrormanes.
Here we go:
Xeno was not created by Ed, but Maskul and the Mirrormane family were.
There is family background lore on the Mirrormanes, created by Ed and abandoned when other designers started working on Zhentil Keep (Ed wanted them to have a "free hand" rather than being bound by his unpublished and fragmentary lore).
The Mirrormanes were and are "nobility" in the sense that all Zhent nobles are: wealthy, successful local merchant families who give themselves the titles of lords and special privileges. Many of the Mirrormanes entered various clergies and rose through their ranks, shielding themselves a trifle from the cut-and-thrust of secular nobility feuding with each other. Yes, Maskul was a member of the High Imperceptor's trusted advisors and envoys among the clergy of Bane (Xeno of course I can't speak for, but I would assume he was also a high-ranking priest of the faith, for his later status [the "right place" he was in] to make any logical sense) before the Time of Troubles.
No one in Zhentil Keep knew or had any connection with Cyric the mortal before the Godsfall (and Cyric's rise).
I hope these "quickie" answers help. Ed was looking for his Mirrormane family lore to share with you, and probably hasn't found it yet. No surprise to anyone who's seen his study or his basement.
Otherwise (I ran these replies past him) this is pretty much what he would have told you.
love,
THO
Truly, really thanks. Just what I needed and not a second too early :)
Best Regards,
Mandras |
"The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple."
Oscar Wilde |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:21:34
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Well, J.K. Rowling has her own approach to social issues, and her world is a good deal closer to the issues of our own. Also, you will note that even Jo waited until her series was all wrapped up and her work with it pretty much done before opening that particular can of worms.
Different authors write differently. Any reader of, say, Mercy Lackey's Last Herald-Mage series is going to know off the bat that Vanyel Ashkevron is gay, and faces discrimination because of that similar to that in our own world. Readers of LeGuin's Earthsea are going to have to pay very close attention to a single throwaway line to reach a similar conclusion regarding Erreth-Akbe - but the clue is there.
That said, I love the Realms as Ed writes them and am confident that he does all he can to show us as much local color as his projects permit. Personally, I have my suspicions regarding some male bit-characters in Elminster in Myth Drannor, but maybe I am reading too much into a warm elven friendship. ;) |
Edited by - Vangelor on 21 Jan 2008 23:23:23 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 04:31:47
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Hello again, all! This time I bring a Realmslore reply from Ed to crazedventurers, specifically this query: “Good Lady - could you explain how the Knights met Neiroon? He who lived in the Hut near the river Lis - from the Realms Atlas, (the proper one I mean, the paper one [:)).
And is this the same Neiron 'the schemer' from the OGBS who is listed as a Ranger who is not a harper and wanders the stonelands?
I am guessing not given Ed'd like of similar names to confuse us all (Astoroth etc )
Thanks, Damian”
Ed replies:
No, they’re two different people, and you’re quite correct to think I named them thus to give my players more than a moment of “Hmmm” and sending their characters to do a little more delving. Makes it all seem more real, I find.
(Oh, BTW: one of the things they discovered is that the schemer has pretended to be the hut-dweller, more than once. Why this deception, they’re not quite sure. Yet.)
As for how the Knights met Neiroon, that befell only a year or so after they first arrived in Shadowdale, when they had occasion to go to Elventree (a long story, adventure-related), and heard of him and some other interesting NPCs from interesting NPCs they met in Elventree. They decided he sounded interesting enough to meet, and did something about that. :}
That’s the short version, anyway. The in-depth recounting unfortunately involves far too many campaign subplots to properly explain here; if I got started, that’d be the end of all the writing Wizards and others are impatiently waiting for, that they’re PAYING me to do. :} Suffice it to say that the “home” Realms campaign is far more intrigue and plots upon plots and roleplaying daily life and commerce and politics and the like than it is drawing swords and hacking monsters.
So saith Ed. THE master of the Realms. As more than this particular purring temptress have remarked, down the years.
love,
THO
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 08:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
Dear Ed,
First of all, a happy new year to you and your kin, and thanks for giving us the best sandbox we all could have ever wished for!
I dm a campaign who’s main plot centeres around an aboleth schmeme to rule the world (the “Night Below” box written by Carl Sargent) and have a few questions about aboleth in the Realms. I don’t need them urgently answered, so take your time. However I would be happy if I could read your opinion still in 2008 (I know there are unanswered questions older than that, and I feel bad when jumping the queue). Many thanks in advance! :o)
(snip)
Here are my questions (and sorry for them to be so drawn-out!):
1) When an aboleth consumes someone, he gains all(!) the knowledge of that individual, and when aboleth spawn, their offspring inherits all(!) of their parent’s knowledge. I cannot begin to imagine how vast their intellet must be and how quickly this mechanism might lead to intellects that unbalance these creatures, making them far too clever to be used as villains. At least this feature was countered in 3rd editions “Lords of Madness” by stating that their ancestral knowledge is not readily accessible and has to be searched for specific facts in protracted mind-wanderings. Still, when a whle city of aboleth comes up with a plan for world domination, I expect it to be quite bullet-proof.
(snip)
Strange that you should ask ... I was reading the aboleth chapter in Lords of Madness a few days ago and a thorough reading helped to clear up one of my misconceptions (which has at least a defense in an Elaine Cunningham novel). As you say, aboleths must search for their ancestral memories, but apparently it is even more difficult for them to recall the memories of their food. There is an aboleth feat which allows them to have a daily skill bonus because they can more easily recall some of what they have chowed down upon, but I don't think I've seen any aboleth singled out as actually having the feat, so presumably the memories of the prior dinners of the vast majority of aboleths are all jumbled together in an incoherent babble. Aboleth Savants don't recall their memories with any greater clarity than other aboleths most of the time, but twice in their lives (when they "level") they apparently have an "a ha!" experience, some of those memories fall into place, and they get a stat boost.
Elaine, however, has written of an aboleth who had a plan of his own and went about selecting meals to get the information he required. In game mechanical terms, he probably had the feat which allowed him a daily skill bonus.
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
4) And the last question: How do you envision the aboleths in the realms? How commonly known are they among sages? Are they seen as legends or real dangers that luckily concern mostly the dwellers of the underdark? Who in the realms would most likely have reasonably solid lore about these monsters? I am tempted to send my players to cosmopolitan underdark cities like Sshamath, for example...
OK, I guess that’s enough stuff to answer. You can keep your replies short – I know you don’t have the time for answering every question in detail. ... not that I woulnd’t like the long versions, mind you! ;o)
Tauster
You, I, and at least three other people here have asked Ed many questions about aboleths in the past couple of years, and most of those questions have gone unanswered, presumably hidden by Otiluke's NDA Screen!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 10:59:22
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For Zandilar: FR7 Hall of Heroes, p.111.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)
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