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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  03:19:42  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

Call me a geek, but it looked like a super-Stargate opening to me.
And it leads to the Ori's, ooops... I mean, the home Crystal Sphere of the Tenth Pit!

"Hallowed are the Tenth Pit."

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  03:59:12  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. This time I bring you Ed’s Realmslore reply to this query, from createvmind: “Ed, conjoined twins, can you give a regional take on such children, are they considered abberations, allowed to live?
Regions, the North
Western Heartlands
Calimshan
Any elf region above or below ground
Any dwarf region
Rashemen
Border Kingdoms
Thanks and hope for any tidbit.”
Ed replies:



It depends. On the individuals involved in the birthing, in the faiths prevalent in the community and at the birth, and on the region.
By individuals I mean the world-views of the parents and immediate family, and the general outlook of their races, which are as follows: dwarves, so desperate for offspring, are (as Dalor surmised) accepting of all “not-sturdies” (deviations from the norm, or ‘deformities’). As are gnomes and all goblinkin (goblinkin such as orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, ettins, etc. will cruelly tease all fellow goblinkin for every pretext, but not shun, mistrust, or cast out deformed racial kin). Halflings, elves, and humans vary, having no race-wide attitude - - except for gold elves and drow, who DO place a premium on ‘normality’ and even beauty, and will cast out or kill “abominations” such as conjoined twins.
Moving from individuals to faiths: those faiths linked to the land and fertility (such as Chauntea, Silvanus, Eldath, and most of the elven, gnome, and halfling gods) are generally accepting of not-normal babies: all conception and growth is good and most be tolerated, accepted, and “best used” (so, how can these conjoined twins best serve the community? what can/should they be trained for, and given to do?). Cyric’s (and Bane’s) priests are taught by the god that “misfits” offer perfect sacrifices for ritual murder, to demonstrate dedication to the god and the desire to strive for obedience, purity, and through them, progress [improvement of self] as individuals. Most other faiths are somewhere in between these two viewpoints (priests tend to cleave closely to any doctrine from on high in such matters, and to pray for guidance if they’re uncertain of the deity’s views; on matters of life, conception, and acceptance, most clergy (unless sane, or under intense pressure that plunges them into fear or hatred) know that they dare not “make their own rules” on such matters.
Lastly, the region, which tends to have “community norms” built up through years of laws and decrees of rulers and wide-reaching events (such as wars, pacts, diseases, famines, and the like).
The North tends to be a harsh, frontier, ‘everyone for themselves’ land. If the birth is in howling wintertime and circumstances (parents on the move due to prowling monsters, lack of food or warmth, etc., conjoined twins are sickly) it might be necessary to just leave them to perish, and move on. This decision would be left to the parents and any community leader (elder, warrior leading the traveling band, etc.) and everyone else would accept it, without remorse, second-guessing, or dissent. Otherwise (parents sheltering in one place for the winter, community support exists, etc.), the very harshness of the North would demand that the twins be given all possible aid and chances to live and flourish. Many misfits dwell in the North, tolerated far more than in warmer cities in more southerly lands.
The Western Heartlands consist of rural and urban areas. In rural areas, tolerance is the norm. In cities with different classes of society, prejudice is more common, and quietly killing and hiding such offspring might well occur. (Athkatla, for example.) Waterdeep is more tolerant (due to its crossroads nature) than most cities, but upper-crust parents would almost certainly have the baby disowned and quietly “vanished,” either sold to someone in Dock Ward to ‘dispose of,’ or to “someone they know” to take down into Skullport. Noble parents would NOT do this, for fear of someone getting hold of an heir and rearing them in secret to use as a weapon against the family in future (after, all, if you control THE family heir, especially one who is possibly helpless-without-you, you can slaughter all of the rest of the family in arranged “accidents,” and then install your heir, gaining control of the family wealth and properties in one fell swoop). Instead, noble families will use all means they can hire to do away with ugliness or deformities, and if that’s not possible, they’ll hide away the “offending failure of their blood” behind closed doors in one of their largest and most secure homes (city mansion or country estate), where that unfortunate will live out their lives closely-guarded and watched over by attentive servants, hidden from the rest of the Realms.
Commoner parents who can’t bear to look at deformed or “ruined” offspring often hired them out as apprentices to a craftworker elsewhere, or who travels, to “live new lives” in the company of others. That’s why many troupes of traveling entertainers are dominated by tolerant-of-each-other misfits of “freakish” looks.
In Calimshan, rural areas are home to many misfits, as are the “dirty” jobs in cities (sewers, dung-wagons and garbage carts, animal handling). Elsewhere, anyone so “disgusting before the gods” as conjoined twins would be shunned and driven away (with violence in the form of swung sticks and flung stones if they persisted) unless they hooded themselves and sat down to act as mumblingly inoffensive (not threatening) beggars (their only acceptable urban role). The exceptions here are the “personal beasts” kept as champions and entertainment fighters (wrestlers) by the wealthy and high-ranking; many of these are mongrel folk or half-orcs, but they can include all manner of “not-normal” humans, so long as they’re strong.
As I’ve mentioned, gold elves and drow tend to be intolerant of deformed individuals. Other elves may quietly avoid such beings out of personal discomfort, and might well choose them last as dining or living companions, but won’t mistrust them or think them ‘not-elves,’ merely because of their deformity. Sylvan-dwelling elves of all sorts tend to not care about “deviances from the norm” at all, because they see such a variety of life among forest creatures; to them, it’s far more likely to be seen as all just the natural way of things.
Old dwarves may harbor strong inner prejudices against any “different” dwarf, thanks to memories of past plagues, and magical monster attacks that possessed or dominated dwarves, that caused deformities. This, added to the everpresent tales of greedy human wizards using shapechanging magic to adopt dwarf-shape to find just where dwarves keep their gold and gems, will make them watchful and suspicious of all dwarves who seem “different.” However, dwarves are used to keeping themselves under iron-hard discipline, and were so hungry for so long to have young dwarves to replenish their dwindling numbers that they are willing to accept any dwarf, in any condition. “We still stand in the shadow of the doom of oblivion,” as one elder put it. As a result, they will be “ever-watchfully acceptive” of conjoined twins or any deformed dwarf.
In Rashemen, the matriarchal, nature-bound society leads births that are different of the norm to be VERY closely examined by various Witches, using their spells to make sure there is no fell creature hiding within, or influencing, the babe. If that’s determined not to be the case, the infant is fully accepted, and reared and trained for a role that will make use of, and be well suited to, its particular skills and disabilities. Conjoined twins who might become witches would be separated, if possible (that is, if there was a good chance of survival for both of the twins), due to fear that their dual nature would make them “unbalanced” when handling the most powerful magics (that is, more easily swayed by all human emotions, and therefore more susceptible to doing evil out of swelling rage and hatred, or plunging into insanity, as the emotions of one twin fed on and bolstered the emotions of the other). (I’m not saying they are correct in this belief; I’m reporting that it is the belief that exists and would be held with each new “Touched One” [or “ones” in the case of conjoined twins; the phrase refers to “touched by the gods”].) The underlying belief is that not-normal births are humans touched by SOMETHING, so they are examined to make sure it’s the gods and not some fell demon, devil, or other malicious creature; if it’s the gods, then the gods touched the person for some purpose, and they must live and be accepted until that purpose can be revealed and fulfilled.
The Border Kingdoms are a rough-and-ready frontier area, but have been settled (and are constantly being re-settled) by all manner of outlanders from elsewhere. Most of them can appreciate what it is to be outcast or at least a misfit, and are used to encountering and dealing with a wide variety of creatures and backgrounds among fellow Borderers - - but they ARE from a wide variety of “origins elsewhere” in the Realms, and therefore reflect the full variety of views and reactions; there’s no regional norm.
I hope all of this helps to answer your question, createvmind.
To anyone who finds the language and ideas expressed in this answer a trifle harsh, I’m sorry, but I value honest answers above all else, and don’t think modern euphemisms used for real-world “political correctness” purposes either apply to the Realms, or should ever stand in the way of clarity.



So saith Ed. Who, by the way, volunteered at Bloorview Childrens’ Hospital during his youth (back when it was still on Bloor Street, although he has visited its newer North York location), a Toronto institution that houses terminally ill and what were then called “handicapped” children and youth.
love to all,
THO
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sfdragon
Master of Realmslore

1986 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  09:06:22  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message
hypothetically asking, what would happen in faerun if the world serpent rejoined itself??

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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tauster
Senior Scribe

Germany
399 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  10:34:57  Show Profile  Visit tauster's Homepage Send tauster a Private Message
I hope I do not misremember about this one, but I seem to recall that THE spelljammer (i.e. the legendary/mythological huge ship) comes from a "Broken Sphere". I even think there was a novel with exactly that title... it would have to be the 5th or 6th of the cloakmaster cycle, because they're the only ones I don't have.

*goes looking up the information*
Yep, amazon.com says it's book 5, written by nigel findley. It is badly out of print and hard and/or expensive to get, at least in Germany. After all I heard from true spelljammer fans, both #5 ans #6 are ...well... let's say "not among the best SJ novels", and even contradict quite a lot of canon lore.

I don't want to hijack Ed's scroll, so I opened a new one on the "running the realms" forum about the topic of broken spherewalls and it's consequences.

Edited by - tauster on 29 Apr 2008 10:54:09
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  16:25:22  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

I hope all of this helps to answer your question, createvmind.
To anyone who finds the language and ideas expressed in this answer a trifle harsh, I’m sorry, but I value honest answers above all else, and don’t think modern euphemisms used for real-world “political correctness” purposes either apply to the Realms, or should ever stand in the way of clarity.



I liked it, because it goes to show that although Faerunians tend to have many "modern" beliefs (ie. they don't seem like they were imported from the real world Middle Ages), they also don't seem like they'd be right at home in modern-day New York City, either.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Apr 2008 16:27:50
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2008 :  23:40:33  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Thank you Ed and Lady,

That answer was far beyond what I was expecting, sorry if I ask such oddball questions sometimes.

Thank you much
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2008 :  04:55:37  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Not at all oddball, createvmind, not at all. We both enjoy them!
And hello again, all. This time, scribe Jamallo Kreen will hopefully be delighted to learn that his persistence has borne fruit at last. Ed can now provide a partial answer to all of this: “As a result of my previous rants and whining, Ed said:


quote:
January 27, 2006: Hi, all. This time, Ed replies to Jamallo Kreen's post: "Thank ye kindly for the answers thus far, and rest assured that I shall continue to poke, prod, and otherwise disequilibrate the applecart in the future.
There was one tripartite question of mine which may have been answered and the answer lost in the shuffle of my cyberdesk, and which I therefore repeat: What the heck was that magic black curtain across Yellow Snake Pass during the Time of Troubles; what happened to things that passed through it; is it still there?
I await your answers on tenterhooks. (Or at least on osteophytes.)"

Ed speaks:
Oooh, tenterhooks. This's going to hurt, because I'm going to have to leave you hanging. However, feel free to disequilibrate away... :}
Seriously: I hadn't forgotten your query, but was sitting on it in hopes the NDA would end when the project that was going to pick up on this "loose end" was published. However, it hasn't yet, and so the NDA continues. For now. Sorry.
So saith Ed.


Just to be on the safe side and not miss something which has left me curious for years, I think I'll re-post my query every 18 months or so, in the (perhaps vain) hope that WotC will finally provide the gist of the answer and the NDA will go away, so that Ed may give us the details. So there it is ... again. :)

(I do recall reading recently -- where my vacuous memory cannot recall -- that the Zhents had sent one or more expeditions into Yellow Snake Pass, so is it safe to say that the black whatever-it-was isn't there any more?)

(By the way: many, many thanks to kuje for codifying "So saith Ed" into pdf files; I was able to retrieve Ed's answer to my question within a few seconds.)


And thanks to the aforesaid pdf file number 14, I now know that, on April 15, 2007, The Lady Hooded One posted:


quote:

'Forgotten Realms Adventures, page 121: 'Zhent "Long Road to Riches:" a controlled caravan route from Zhentil Keep to the Sword Coast, via the Tesh valley, Daggerdale, the Stonelands, the Desertsedge and Goblin Marches, Yellow Snake Pass (guarded by the great Zhentarim fortress of Darkhold), Skull Gorge, Dawn Pass, Llorkh, Loudwater, and the River Delimbiyr.
...

The FRCS, page 225 says about the Zhents in Yellow Snake Pass; 'until early in 1372 DR., when Thayan wizards and mercenaries from Hill's Edge drove the patrols into cavern shelters in the Underdark. For the moment, Yellow Snake Pass is free.'


Well, as I previously warned, I'm going to keep asking about Yellow Snake Pass and that black thing and what was on the ... other ... side of it at least once a year in hopes that Otiluke's Impregnable NDA Screen finally comes down. With the Realms about to leap a century into the future in a few months, apparently, now seems as good a time as any to ask again. It can't still be NDA in the 15th century, can it?”
Ed now replies:



Right, here we go. The curtain was a gigantic, special-strength, anchored by Zhent beholders “curtain of blackness” or “curtain of darkness” (D&D® players from the original Greyhawk booklet of the 1970s will remember those), designed to conceal all scrying and spying (so, yes, it blocked most magics seeking to see into it). It concealed an area large enough to hold two large caravans at the same time, one inbound and one outbound, and also concealed what those caravans would be passing through: one of the largest “gates” [3e: portals] ever constructed in Faerûn. A glowing, restlessly unstable maw of light that could swallow and disgorge a caravan fourteen outriders in front of six wagons, abreast. The Zhents struggled to keep the gate “up” and operating (maintaining it proved nigh-fatally exhausting to human spellcasters, and hard going on the beholders, too) for some time, before finally giving up. The gate was intended to whisk caravans across Faerûn between the gate location and the Sword Coast cities, and allow the Zhents to make killings on high-priced, vital goods in the confusion and disarray of the Time of Troubles. The human Zhents hoped it could be used to move armies and bring in some least devils to fight with them as allies, whereas the beholders were secretly trying to bring in many, many “beholderkin” (eye tyrant-like creatures of lesser powers, under THEIR control) through the gate. These competing desires meant that the “other end” of the gate was always shifting, making it a conduit for all sorts of unintended monsters, including at least one full-sized and mightily annoyed dragon.
I say “partial answer” because NDAs remain over just what passed through the gate, and what places (yes, plural) its “other end” reached.
So there you have it. For your campaign purposes, of course, it can reach any other fantasy world setting, continent, or Underdark locale you want it to. Have fun. ;}



So saith Ed. Revealing vital, eye-opening Realmslore wherever he goes. (Well, I open MY eyes, anyway. Safer, and all that.)
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 30 Apr 2008 04:58:14
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe

147 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2008 :  06:37:37  Show Profile  Visit GoCeraf's Homepage Send GoCeraf a Private Message
Mr. Greenwood,

If someone were unable to think of a word, or lost his train of thought in the middle of the sentence, what vocalizations would he say? For instance, I say "Erm," or "Ah" (I try to avoid "Uh," because it does not sound particularly intelligent).

Would this also vary by language? I know that the Japanese equivalent is "amo," but I think that's just "um" with the syllabic completion.

Or is it that people in the Realms are notably more articulate than I? It worries me, as I find myself trailing off a bit these days .

All the best.

Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2008 :  23:49:54  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Not at all oddball, createvmind, not at all. We both enjoy them!
And hello again, all. This time, scribe Jamallo Kreen will hopefully be delighted to learn that his persistence has borne fruit at last. Ed can now provide a partial answer to all of this: “As a result of my previous rants and whining, Ed said:



(much, much snipping)


Ed now replies:



Right, here we go. The curtain was a gigantic, special-strength, anchored by Zhent beholders “curtain of blackness” or “curtain of darkness” (D&D® players from the original Greyhawk booklet of the 1970s will remember those), designed to conceal all scrying and spying (so, yes, it blocked most magics seeking to see into it). It concealed an area large enough to hold two large caravans at the same time, one inbound and one outbound, and also concealed what those caravans would be passing through: one of the largest “gates” [3e: portals] ever constructed in Faerûn. A glowing, restlessly unstable maw of light that could swallow and disgorge a caravan fourteen outriders in front of six wagons, abreast. The Zhents struggled to keep the gate “up” and operating (maintaining it proved nigh-fatally exhausting to human spellcasters, and hard going on the beholders, too) for some time, before finally giving up. The gate was intended to whisk caravans across Faerûn between the gate location and the Sword Coast cities, and allow the Zhents to make killings on high-priced, vital goods in the confusion and disarray of the Time of Troubles. The human Zhents hoped it could be used to move armies and bring in some least devils to fight with them as allies, whereas the beholders were secretly trying to bring in many, many “beholderkin” (eye tyrant-like creatures of lesser powers, under THEIR control) through the gate. These competing desires meant that the “other end” of the gate was always shifting, making it a conduit for all sorts of unintended monsters, including at least one full-sized and mightily annoyed dragon.
I say “partial answer” because NDAs remain over just what passed through the gate, and what places (yes, plural) its “other end” reached.
So there you have it. For your campaign purposes, of course, it can reach any other fantasy world setting, continent, or Underdark locale you want it to. Have fun. ;}



So saith Ed. Revealing vital, eye-opening Realmslore wherever he goes. (Well, I open MY eyes, anyway. Safer, and all that.)
love to all,
THO




Well, hot d__n! If that ain't a good explanation, I don't know what is!

Mucho many thanks!




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  00:48:58  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Hello all,

Figured I'd give this a try hoping my luck holds. I've read and reread and reread Tyrants of the Nine Hells and wonder how you depict fiend activity within Faerun. The books describes Archdevils as having the material worlds divided into territories/hunting grounds seeking to collect lawful evil souls? This raises several questions for me, the scourcebook text seems to imply all soul collecting devils at the least have an innate soul-sense when it comes to mortals to see that correct aura of a lawful evil once they've initially corrupted a soul, yes? I ask this particular question because the book describes devils as "knowing" when a mortals soul has shifted from lawful evil without the devil having to be in the mortals presence, it seems to imply this soul-sense works even across the planes?

Such lawful evil places in Faerun by devil standards would be few thus causing factions of devils to engage in a shadow war with each other over such regions, if yes where would these regions be, besides Thay and which Archdevil do you see holding power in such areas in year 1373 and if you see any power shifts of such places during the next ten years?

For devils to work themselves into a non-evil society I assume they must either corrupt or destroy the local clergy regardless of diety first and foremost since clerics stand the best chance of detecting their presence?

A arcane caster who chooses an imp as a familiar believes he has a loyal companion, does this magical rapport with the imp override the imps nature in seeking to corrupt souls for it's true Archdevil master even if that means corrupting the mages very family and friends? Through their imp familairs can a mage learn the horrible truth of a lawful evil souls fate or will the imp resist even magical coercion to reveal this information?

Any Greenwood knowledge you can reveal on this topic would be wonderful.

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  01:58:05  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. Back in February, lordhobie asked: “Well met, Ed and THO! Regarding the topic of 'childhood bugaboos:' given that the Realms is chock full of 'real' monsters who would scare the wits if not the life out of many adults, what 'night-time monsters' do parents of the Realms cajole or threaten with? I seem to recall that the Night Serpent was known to be invoked for such purposes, but wondered if there were others...”
At the time, I made reply with this: “lordhobie, there are LOTS of local "bugaboos," plus faith-related ones. Ed will furnish you with a proper lore reply in the fullness of time, but I can recall The Haunted Helm (empty, floating/flying helm) in Cormyr, and the ghost of a dead local ruler, the Baron of Blacksaddle, in the Border Kingdoms (see p 134 and 135 of POWER OF FAERUN).”
Ed now replies:



Hello, lordhobie! Thanks for the fun question.
THO is quite correct about Cormyrean parents using the Haunted Helm (in Arabel it is said to come flying out of the Stonelands, and in Marsember and Suzail it purportedly rises, dripping, out of the murky harbor waters), and Borderers telling tales of the Baron of Blacksaddle.
In Waterdeep, Crawling Claws (usually said to be the rotting hands of “bad sailors” who drowned in the harbor, or the severed hands of adventurers eaten by monsters in the depths of Undermountain, whose hands survived because they were encased in metal gauntlets, that have “only now” rusted away) are used as a night scare (as in “They come to snatch and pluck naughty children, dragging them away, never to be seen again!” and if any child asks how they’ll get me out of the locked room or that tiny space under the door, parents generally say the Claws will tear the child apart so as to have only tiny scraps to slide through such narrow spaces).
Throughout the Heartlands, parents retell “scare-tales” of the Crawling Claws, and also of “The Curst who watches you forever.”
Up and down the Sword Coast and across the Sword Coast North, the bogeyman role is usually filled instead by “kobolds and goblins who watch for bad children, to come and snatch and eat them, RAW!” (Interestingly, kobold and goblin parents change the rapacious snatchers to “halflings.” :} )
Of course, individual parents (and the neighbours of unruly children in towns and villages everywhere) invent many, many different bogeymen. The faith-based ones tend to be “wriggling worms from the Nine Hells” or “flying blind little biting jaws from the Abyss,” but warrior families who most strongly venerate Tempus often speak of “hacked and severed pieces of dead warriors, that rise from a fresh battlefield somewhere in the Realms and come flying to get you, terribly fast, low over the ground . . .”
Interestingly, orc parents speak of “shining, terrible-eyed elves who burn you with their silver touch.”
And so on. Er, happy scaring! I think. :}



So saith Ed. Who thinks scaring kids is a bad idea, but who delighted in scaring teenagers at camp, when he was a councillor, telling campfire stories under the stars late, late at night . . .
[delicious shiver]
* I * recall him whispering Cthulhoid stories to us up at the cottage, and caressing us in the dark with handfuls of cold, wet, limp spaghetti iiiiiiii!
(Ahem.)
love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  03:39:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

And so on. Er, happy scaring! I think. :}


Is that happy scaring or happy scarring?

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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  03:50:35  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Hello all,

A planar question this time sort of, Is plane that Faerun occupies as old as the other planes, Acheron for instance? It says time passes as it does on Faerun but does that mean it's the same hour as Faerun time, could it's "clock" not have started before or after faerun time. How does someone who suddenly finds themselves stranded on this plane with little knowledge of it, know the proper passage of time?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  04:28:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

And so on. Er, happy scaring! I think. :}


Is that happy scaring or happy scarring?

Put me down for one of each!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe

147 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  05:52:04  Show Profile  Visit GoCeraf's Homepage Send GoCeraf a Private Message
Sage, I have to say that you don't really strike me as a masochist.

Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling.
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sfdragon
Master of Realmslore

1986 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  09:32:57  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message
I have aquestion for Ed.
dwarven clans of the realms, since surenames are all given out by yhe elders, do they call themselves clan whatnotsurename or as name of the main clan, such as mythral hall's clann battlehammer???

i was curious since the frwiki had clan hammerstriker listed

oh and if you dont miond please tell Mr. Greenwood that the castlemourn campaign setting was very enteresting, but i wonder what about it and 4e.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234

Edited by - sfdragon on 01 May 2008 10:32:09
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2393 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  16:03:10  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
Dragon: have you read Dwarves Deep? It's an old (1st edition) source that has a lot on the naming conventions of dwarves, and may (Wooly?) be available as a free download. If it isn't, it's well worth the $5 to download elsewhere.

That said, dwarven naming conventions are a little confusing, particularly since various authors have used them differently over the years. Briefly, though, there is a difference between a "family" and a "clan," though the difference between a "house" and a "clan" is less distinct (some sources refer to a name as a clan, then another one calls it a house). So you could have, for instance, Dorn [of the family] Trueforger of Clan Melairkyn (I'm doing this from memory, I don't remember if Trueforger is actually a Melairkyn family).

Much like Arabic, dwarves will also list their geneology, with father (or mother, if female), grandfather, and any heroic ancestors. So now we have Dorn, son of Adain, grandson of Ghellin, blood of Taark Trueforger of Clan Melairkyn. Also like Arabic, the dwarf could be referred to by any part of that name. And this isn't even including nicknames (ie: "Skullcrusher"), or location names (ie: "of Mirabar").

So, in closing, a dwarf's full name could be something like: Dorn "Skullcrusher" of Mirabar, son of Adain "Hammermind" of Mithril Hall, grandson of Ghellin, blood of Taark Trueforger of Clan Melairkyn. Makes you realize why they usually just use either their clan name, "son of x," or "of the dwarves" as a surname!

Sorry for cluttering up Ed's thread, and if he'd like to add anything to the above (or correct anything), I'd love to read it. And I can't recommend Dwarves Deep enough, if you haven't read it.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  17:57:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Dragon: have you read Dwarves Deep? It's an old (1st edition) source that has a lot on the naming conventions of dwarves, and may (Wooly?) be available as a free download. If it isn't, it's well worth the $5 to download elsewhere.


It is not available on the Wizards downloads page. Few books from the FR series of references are. And it's actually a 2E source, though most of its contents are version neutral and can be readily applied to 3.x, and maybe even to D&D Extreme (if role-playing is even a factor of 4E).

It's a good sourcebook, though. It's one of my faves from 2E, and one of the couple dozen that I've made a point of buying the pdf. It's heartily recommended for anyone who wants to know dwarves. And it's by Ed.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2008 :  23:35:08  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
I was going to point that out, too, but I'll simply say that there is not a huge demand for it (or wasn't when I bid on it on eBay a couple of months ago; I got it with one or two bids).

As for The Haunted Helm ... "Oh, boss!" (I apologize to scholars from outside North America or of the younger generation of North Americans who cannot understand my usage -- it is as untranslatable as, "All hail, Macbeth!")




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2393 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2008 :  20:56:50  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message
Hello again, Ed. I have more of a scholarly question this time. I've lately been reading Professor Lynn White's book Medieval Technology and Social Change, which describes how the invention of the stirrup and the heavy eight ox wheeled plow were driving influences in the formation of feudalism and the open field system of the Middle Ages. Since the Realms is loosely based on that time period, I was wondering if you had read the book, and, if so, what implications you think it has on conceptualizations of the Realms.

And while we're on the subject of agriculture, I have a question about Goldenfields. It's called a massively productive farm that helps keep Waterdeep from starving, and I'm curious how they do it. What innovations, magical or mundane, have they come up with that makes it a better farm than elsewhere in the north, and what about that area made them decide to build the farm where they did? Since a former PC in your campaign is currently running the place, I was hoping you could share some wisdom on the area.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.

Edited by - Hoondatha on 02 May 2008 20:57:54
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2008 :  21:55:32  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Hello again, Ed. I have more of a scholarly question this time. I've lately been reading Professor Lynn White's book Medieval Technology and Social Change, which describes how the invention of the stirrup and the heavy eight ox wheeled plow were driving influences in the formation of feudalism and the open field system of the Middle Ages. Since the Realms is loosely based on that time period, I was wondering if you had read the book, and, if so, what implications you think it has on conceptualizations of the Realms.


If I may, I´d like to piggyback on this question and add "Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. Ed, have you read it? What might it´s Realms implications be? Here´s a link to a bit of info about the book: http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring99/gunsgerms.htm
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2008 :  22:23:35  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. A reply from Ed just landed in my inbox, and astonishly, it’s to the message I most recently sent him!
To whit, this from Hoondatha: “Hello again, Ed. I have more of a scholarly question this time. I've lately been reading Professor Lynn White's book Medieval Technology and Social Change, which describes how the invention of the stirrup and the heavy eight ox wheeled plow were driving influences in the formation of feudalism and the open field system of the Middle Ages. Since the Realms is loosely based on that time period, I was wondering if you had read the book, and, if so, what implications you think it has on conceptualizations of the Realms.
And while we're on the subject of agriculture, I have a question about Goldenfields. It's called a massively productive farm that helps keep Waterdeep from starving, and I'm curious how they do it. What innovations, magical or mundane, have they come up with that makes it a better farm than elsewhere in the north, and what about that area made them decide to build the farm where they did? Since a former PC in your campaign is currently running the place, I was hoping you could share some wisdom on the area.”
Ed replies:



Hi, Hoondatha!
I’m afraid I haven’t read that particular book, but I have studied history both academically and casually for about forty years, and have become very familiar with “what had implications when” regarding the stirrup, various forms of water pumps and ploughs, paper, local understanding of crop rotation and fertilization, etc. in the Dark Ages/medieval/Renaissance times in Europe. That sort of knowledge has shaped my ongoing creation of the Realms NOT as a “must ape real-world history here, and thus,” but as a deepening aid to understanding causes and effects and spreading implications (the ripples spreading out across the pool from where the flung stone plunges in). This in turn allows me to judge the wide social effects of particular magics, and so on.
Goldenfields is a vast walled temple-farm where hundreds of acres of fields are tended with zeal, full irrigation, and expertise matched nowhere else among humans regarding “companion planting” (carrots love tomatoes, et al). Tolgar Anuvien is the character you mention, and he trains and coordinates the priests under him in using spells he has crafted or perfected to banish blights, kill insect pests, and drive off such damaging predators as flocks of hungry birds, hungry bunnies, and burrowing voles - - and most importantly to affect temperature and moisture to avoid the killing frosts that afflict much of the moisture-abundant North, so crops inside Goldenfield’s walls don’t suffer nearly as much “kill off” as those outside. In addition, Goldenfields practices enthusiastic experimentation in pickling, warehousing, fermentation (into medicines, cordials, and wines) and drying of edible fruits and vegetables.
All of which has made for maximum yields, and the temple-farm’s famous role as the “granary of the North.” Built where it is to be within irrigation reach of the great river Dessarin, and easy market reach of Waterdeep (which is both an important port and a huge food market that can’t possibly feed itself due to building on darn near all the tillable soil within its walls), as well as “on the road to” Silverymoon and the heart of the Sword Coast North, Goldenfields has expanded often; its generous gifts of food and seeds to those in need have given it a “kind, nice” reputation. That, coupled with its holy nature, make it more of an “attraction” in the minds of all than a target.



So saith Ed. Creator of Goldenfields and Waterdeep and the Realms all around them. Afet, I know Ed has read “Guns, Germs, and Steel” as well as “Rats, Lice, and History” and for that matter many books, from long-ago L. Sprague deCamp titles to far more recent releases, on what inventions and innovations occurred when, and what effects they had. (I’m away from my own books right now, and am trying to recall the title of one Ed mentioned to me a year-and-some ago; something about “Windmills, Waterwheels, and - -” something or other . . . Anyway, his shelves bristle with such tomes [Salt, A World History, a similar book about rice, all sorts of books on medieval engineers and how they must or could have built Stonehenge, Roman aqueducts, roads, et al.]
love to all,
THO
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2008 :  23:07:49  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Afet, I know Ed has read “Guns, Germs, and Steel” as well as “Rats, Lice, and History” and for that matter many books, from long-ago L. Sprague deCamp titles to far more recent releases, on what inventions and innovations occurred when, and what effects they had.


Another interesting and, frankly, surprising book about advances in social and physical technologies in the Middle Ages is Rodney Stark´s "The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success". Because of prevailing Enlightenment mythology about the "Dark Ages" and other books like the much discredited "The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman, I figured Stark´s book would be an attempt at Christian apologetics. As it turns out, the book is anything but. It is well-researched, even-handed and has interesting things to say about the connection between religious perceptions of nature, rationalism and the early development of capitalism on, as it happens, agricultural estates owned by religious orders. Sound familiar?. Stark convincingly breaks with the widely accepted perception of medieval Europe as a "Dark Age" characterized intellectual and technical stagnation. Worth a read.
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 03 May 2008 15:52:19
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2008 :  03:52:27  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Apropos of the most recent posts, I urge scholars to check Ed's previous answers in the "So Saith Ed" archive. I have asked Ed about the stirrup, mechanical clocks, and pretty much everything an economic historian would consider significant in a low-fantasy game.




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2008 :  04:24:01  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Well met, all!

Here's a doozie of a question which came to me while reading about Pharaun's piloting of the Ship of Chaos in Annihilation: some sources say that demons (and maybe devils, too) evolve from the lower ranks of demonkind (or devilkind, as the case may be), the bottom rung of which is occupied by the souls of the damned. My question to Ed, who knows a lot about the Nether Regions, is this: do any of these demons (and/or devils) remember anything of their lives as mortal beings on the Prime Material Plane? Inquiring metaphysicians want to know!





I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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