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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  19:37:51  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Speaking of souls, why don't demon princes who are engaged in wars simply destroy the petitioners of the other, doesn't that weaken a demon lords power structure on its own plane? I understand killing followers/cultist or better turning them from worshipping a demon (doubt that saves their soul but in the most extreme of cases) on material plane but since a number of demon lords seem to care little for mortal followers, how are they able to hold their own against demon lords who do have petitioners as well as mortal followers? I figure easiest way to achieve that is to destroy the petitioners, I assume it isn't that simple a matter in the abyss huh?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  21:17:46  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

I can work with that. Certain geysers and hot springs are perfect for disposals of magically-charging poisons, potions, and lesser magic items . . . as well as for untraced burials of artifacts, relics, and magic items of considerable power.


Was El careful to consider the effects such artifacts might have on that precious piece of the natural world?

quote:
As well, gate-hopping or plane-hopping mages who get REALLY chilled often welcome a hot mud bath.



I hope he did that with some serious magical protection, because those geysers are REALLY hot.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  21:22:28  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

Just stopping by tonight to wish Ed and THO and all others the happiest, healthiest, and heartiest Winter Solstice tonight!

Remember--the days all get longer and brighter from here on out! (Now about this snow....)

Steven
who is sincere in his holiday wishes



Thanks, same to you! I'm so happy because as the days get longer, gardening season becomes ever closer...and I'm really excited about it!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 22 Dec 2008 21:25:57
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  21:25:24  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Yes, like me (if I were so inclined, of course).



-Heh, found the quote.

-Yes, indeed, she has the body, the looks, the brain, everything...No false claims being made here.





quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Oh, Dagnirion, you'll only fill the minds of lots of scribes with hopeful images, you know.


It would be so wrong of us to deny the truth, though.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  23:09:52  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. This time I bring you the Realmslore-laden words of Ed of the Greenwood in response to this query from The Sage: “Last night, while Narnra and I were reading together, I got to thinking about the tales Realms parents share with their own children. Now, I know you've covered this topic somewhat in the past, [and we've brief examples in the Realmslore] but what I'm really looking for here, are your suggestions [or even excerpts] on the kinds of stories that Realms parents would share with their children on cold, wintry nights.
There's actually a not-so-sinister motive for me asking this particular question... I'm trying to instill in Narnra a sense of Ed-crafted fiction for the Realms. I already plan to start her on the Young Dragonlance Reader books, so another of my old TSR loves will be passed on to her. And while I'd like something similar for the Realms, I'd settle for just some bits and/or ideas from you that would feature in the various kinds of children's tales in the Realms. They could help me to craft my own brief stories that would foster a love for the Realms in one so young.
Your thoughts?”
Ed replies:



Hi, Sage. This is a wonderful query, and I wish I had the time and unencumbered opportunity to provide many examples of family-told tales told in the Realms. However, I’ll make as good a “brief stab” as I can at it now, and hopefully follow up with more sample tales in the fullness of time (many publishers seem to love to give me “Christmas homework” to make my Yuletide family get-togethers hectic indeed).
First, tale-telling in evenings is a popular and firmly-established family tradition everywhere in the Realms, complete with put-on “character voices” for those inclined. However, taletellers only ‘act out’ stories with gestures, walking around, and so on in the wealthier households - - because in poorer homes, the story is told in the dark, with folk (often including the storyteller) lying abed drifting into slumber, rather than being told around a lighted focal point (except when camping out under the stars).
For reasons of the audience and the darkness, really scary stories, or stories that don’t have happy or at least “fittingly just” endings, aren’t popular except among youths or adults who feel secure (for example, listeners sleeping in a castle or fortified mansion, surrounded by guards and servants). Terrifying the audience into nightmares is NOT a usual goal, except sometimes among guildmasters threatening fellow adults (guild members) in private - - delivering roundabout pointed threats by parable rather than direct threatening statements IS popular in Waterdeep, Athkatla, and elsewhere up and down the Sword Coast (but considered tiresome “old style” in Westgate and Sembia).
Something else missing from tales told by and among families, unless they’re at a shrine, is “stories of the gods.” By a tradition established very firmly by clergy, ages ago, only priests can tell such stories; for a lay person to do so, except when in a shrine or temple when all clergy are absent (and the chances of having no priests around while a family is in a temple are vanishingly small) is blasphemy at worst and rage-provoking bad taste and judgment at best. So, no “then Tempus infused him with the strength and fire of a dozen warriors” stuff, even at taverns. (For anyone to call upon a deity in a direct prayer, however [even with reference to a secondhand, perhaps fictional, event, such as “Aid me as you did the Blackhelm Knight, when that hero was fighting Kolgaura the Ravening Wyrm atop Scorchskull Hill”] is of course quite acceptable.)
In what follows hereafter, I’m going to restrict myself to human tales and particulars involving non-humans (or crossbreeds such as half-elves) who dwell in human-dominated cities.
Aside from stronger clan elements (clan versus clan rivalries) and racial hatreds (dwarves mistrusting elves and hating orcs), non-human “family tales” tend to be similar to human tales, though there’s one important difference in emphasis: elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes all place great store in preserving family history through storytelling, so the names and deeds of long-ago ancestors are preserved in stories (that as a result, in stretches, often resemble the “begat” lists in the early books of the real-world Christian Bible, or the lineages of kings in the traditions of other religions and lands).
Here are some of the more popular themes in human family-told tales, arranged in rough order of most popular to least:

* Something funny or heroic or (most popular of all) getting even with foes event or sequence of events involving an ancestor.
* “Fitting justice” revenge in general.
* Young lovers succeeding in getting together (and accepted as such, even if relocation to another realm is necessary) despite family or rulers’ disapproval or class differences.
* Young hero or heroine turns tables on a more powerful monster (either escaping from it or managing to slay it) by outwitting it.
* Young hero or heroine wins the hand of a princess, or wins permanent reprieve from a decreed sentence of death, by slaying a dragon.
* A peasant or poor rural miner, hunter, woodcutter, or farmer becomes famous (typically having a place named after him, a naming that persists long after death) or gains high rank (either self-styled because he or she gains a castle, lands, and loyal followers, or more often bestowed by a grateful ruler) by doing something heroic. In the Northlands of Faerun, this heroism often involves defeating an orc horde (or allowing some place to escape the brunt of a passing orc horde).
* An old person, near death, manages to make amends before dying.

These are of course by no means all of the major themes; there’s also the “funny local journey or sequence of events-capping-events-topping-events” that involves many pranks and pratfalls involving real local persons known to the listeners (or thinly-disguised fictional versions of such persons). As these sorts of stories tend to awaken and enliven listeners (hopefully to helpless laughter), they tend to be told early in an evening, not near slumbertime, and are also the only sorts of family stories often told to non-family members in taverns (tales of heroic ancestors are told publicly only on anniversaries of the event, if it concerns the wider community, or the death of the ancestor).

Herewith just one sample tale, to use as a model:


HOW DARONDER BECAME KING
A long time ago, in the summers when trolls roamed and ruled all Surbrin Vale and the lands north of that were all given over to orcs and dragons, there were castles galore up and down all the rivers of the North.
Most of these fortresses were ruins, used betimes as lairs by monsters or bands of outlaws, and deserted much of the rest of the time, for as surely as an orc horde arose in the cold grim mountains of the north, that horde would sweep down into warmer lands to slay and devour and pillage and despoil - - and would follow the rivers to make sure of not getting lost. Every castle seen by a horde was rampaged through by hungry, angry orcs, and every living thing in it slain or driven out, because that’s what orcs do.
And in every winters of every year between hordes - - and there were usually ten such years, or a dozen or even more - - blowing snowstorms drove hungry orcs and wolves and hobgoblins and bugbears and worse to hunt in roving bands that took shelter in every castle they found, killing and usually eating every living thing they found inside the walls.
Wherefore only castles with towns full of people around them to defend the walls tended to last as anything but ruins. Leaving scores of crumbling towers that had once been the home of a great wizard, or a proud and burly baron, or fellowship of mighty warriors, who were all dead or long fled away.
In winter, a castle could be used like a cave to take shelter from biting-cold winds that could bury a traveler in snow higher than many a house, but castles are cold places, and those who took refuge in a castle for more than one night without a fire often froze to death, and were found and gnawed on by the next wolves - - or worse - - happening by.
Yet folk who built fires to keep warm were like fools who shout out exactly where they are to foes hunting for them. Plumes of smoke coming from a castle told beasts for miles around that someone was in residence - - and sometimes even hungry dragons came plunging down out of the skies to tear apart a castle as if it was an egg, to get at the tasty food inside.
All except one castle, that had been riven by the claws of dragons years before, and found empty, yet sent smoke streaming into the sky day and night.
Not that it was a warm place, for it was a haunted castle.
A fortress haunted by a fellowship of ghosts, whose hearths were cold yet burned with ghost fires, that sent ghost smoke billowing up chimneys broken or fallen, to curl out and up amid the stars and fade away.
The ghosts were so old they had forgotten their names or how it was that they had all died in the castle. Even the name of the castle was lost to them, though they considered it their home, and wailed to see their dragon-torn home crumble and slump down into falls of tumbled stone, lying dark and empty and cold. And they stormed through its halls and along its battlements like angry plumes of smoke, dark and grey and swinging silent ghost swords at empty air.
Sometimes they swung them at foes, curious beasts or roving bands of hunters or even humans come up from warmer lands adventuring. All of these fled away, for even if the ghosts scared them not, they could not sleep in the cold dark rooms with ghosts shrieking and wailing in their ears, and a home one cannot sleep in is no home at all.
One spring day to the Haunted Castle came a lone woodcutter named Daronder, who had been forced to leave his village to seek his fortune when a great forest fire burned down the forest he cut trees in, and the village he lived in, too - - and many of his friends and neighbours with it. Finding himself alone in the world except for a donkey and what he could salvage from the ashes of the village, and one or two outlying barns that hadn’t burned, he set forth across the North, and blundered into the Haunted Castle, where he found a spring of fresh water and a dell where he could let the donkey graze. He unloaded its heavy load of saddlebags full of tools and clothes and gewgaws, and let the weary beast rest while he explored the castle.
The ghosts, of course, rushed at him with their swords, frightening him so much he fell over backwards right away. They rushed right through him, and he perceived that they were not real. Their ghost swords stabbed at him, but did nothing but make him shiver, for they were like smoke and could not cut him. And the ghosts shrieked and wailed right in his ears - - but disturbed him not, for Daronder was deaf.
His donkey fled right away, crying in fright, but Daronder was not bothered, even when the ghosts gave up on shrieking and crept up to him in silence to whisper horrible promises of how they’d cut him up or push him off the highest battlements or tie him between their horses and pull him apart . . . for Daronder could not hear them.
He wrapped himself in his cloak and put a flap of his saddle-bags across his head to sleep - - and could not even see the ghosts as they danced around him, screaming. So he slept well, and it was the ghosts who were wearied.
And the next morning, seeing that his donkey was gone but also seeing that the castle had a good green forest growing on one side of it and that spring of fresh clear water rising at the heart of it, Daronder decided to stay there for a time, and spent the day cutting himself firewood and gathering the dryfalls and kindling of past years into the room that had the best hearth. He set snares, and got out his sling and felled fat many-feathered kandurs and treecats that had never learned to fear human hunters for evenfeast, and gathered wild butterleaf and yarl roots. He even found many savvin plants, whose leaves are horrible to taste, but that can be fried to give off a rich oil in which such things as kandurs and treecats can be fried in.
That night Daronder ate well, and slept warm beside a fire that crackled all night, fresh logs rolling down long branches that Daronder had angled into it, as the flames burned through pairs of little stop-sticks he’d woven crosswise through the long branches, releasing each new log in turn to join the flames.
And all that night the ghosts rushed at him and raged around him, shrieking and hurling their heads at him and stabbing and hacking at him with their swords.
Yet they were no more solid than smoke, and he could not hear them, and slept very well indeed.
And in the morning, Daronder checked his snares and found more beasts to eat. Thus heartened, he set about cleaning up the castle, clearing away the fallen stones and cutting down trees to make new roofbeams. The ghosts snarled at him menacingly, but he merely grinned at them and waved greetings, and kept at work.
Day after day he worked, and night after night he slept, and no prowling monsters came to menace him for fear of the ghosts. Slowly, as the summer wore on, the castle ruins became cleaner, and windows acquired frames and then shutters, and missing roofs were replaced, and some rooms filled up with firewood. Daronder made a bench, then a worktable, and then a bed of crosswoven springy boughs in a wooden floor-frame. Then he made a great armchair, and then turned back to cutting firewood and hunting and snaring, walking farther and farther afield into the forest to gather all he could.
For Daronder knew that when winter came, cold and hunger would kill them more surely than any ghost could. He chose a small room with a good chimney and made stout doors for it, to be his keep-warm refuge in the heart of the castle, and then he set about building pit-traps in the forest to take larger beasts to eat, and gathering herbs for seasoning and for medicines.
And everywhere he went in the castle, the ghosts went with him. When he went into the forest, they crowded the battlements to watch him.
Whenever he put a new shutter into place or hammered a new roof, he had a silent audience of watchful ghosts.
Ghosts who now smiled at him betimes, as he fixed up their home.
And so things went on until winter came.
Like every winter, storms came with it, and out of the heart of one of them came struggling three rangers, seeking shelter.
They saw the smoke and the doors and the shutters on the windows, where the castle had stood empty before, yet they knew they would freeze if they found no shelter - - so they banged on the doors.
Now it happened that the storm was raging high, and Daronder, who could hear nothing, but could keenly feel bangings and thuddings, did not at first realize someone was at the castle doors.
The ghosts, however, faded right through the doors to stand around the rangers in a ring.
“Who are you?” they asked the rangers, drawing their silent ghost swords and glaring at the three shivering men. “Why come you here?”
The rangers begged for shelter, and said it was the cold that brought them, and that they would die if they could not find shelter within.
The ghosts told them to throw down their swords and knives, and leave them outside in the snow. The rangers were loathe to do so, but the ghosts said if they did not - - and, moreover, if they did not promise to refrain from harming or stealing from the man they would find inside - - they would find no shelter, and would die in the snows, and lie there frozen and unmourned.
So the rangers agreed, marvelling at this mention of one man, inside the castle. They asked who it was, and the tallest ghost told them, “He is Daronder, a good man. He is king here. If you obey him and treat him a friend, we will bring him to open the doors. If you do him harm, we shall haunt you every step you take for the rest of your lives - - and those lives shall be long and dark.”
The rangers agreed again, and the ghosts streamed back through the closed doors and down the passages of the castle to find Daronder, and beckon him to follow.
He did so eagerly, hoping the ghosts at last would show him some secret of the castle. He was delighted to find the three rangers, and to share his food with them.
They did become friends, and stayed with him until spring, hunting and working on the castle. Although it is the way of rangers to wander, and wander they did, they returned from time to time with others who needed shelter or a home away from troubles - - and every one of them the ghosts treated the same way.
So it was that no one stole from Daronder, and no one challenged Daronder for the castle, and no one dared attack the castle.
And this is how Daronder became king.




(If listeners ask for more, here’s the coda)


All this befell a long time ago, and there is no Daronder any more. He died and those who stayed on after him died in the fullness of their times, until the castle fell down on the heads of all who were left, and they died. Then giants came and played with the fallen stones, and enraged the ghosts, who haunted them to their dooms.
Then the ghosts returned to where the castle had been. There is nothing there now but the spring of fresh water - - and ghosts like smoke, who can be heard calling mournfully, “Daronder! Daronder!”
And if there came to that place a man who answered to the name Daronder, who could work stone and bring others enough to help him build a castle, then the ghosts would see to it that there would be a king in that place again.



So saith Ed, who intends to write a few more sample stories from time to time, Sage, to give you other things to read to Narnra. (And I wonder how many Narnras and Shandrils and Storms and Alustriels and Laerals and Alassras and so on are out there, as a testament to the power of Ed’s writing?)
May all of you who gather with your families at this turning of the year, for whatever festive celebration, be happy and well, and know good fortune in 2009!
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  23:23:42  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Heh, Rino, now you're giving ME images. Purrrrrr.
And yes, I know how hot some of those geysers are (and so does Ed). However, a few of them are cooler; cool enough for a "MY, that's warm! Whooo!" short soak.
And yes, I'd say El always considers consequences.
The problem is that he then (sometimes) goes ahead and does things that would make you or me shriek or wince or run screaming . . . because we've seen the exact same consequences.
(Measured against most people, however - - such as your average non-gamer and non-fantasy or sf reader - - El sees several layers of consequences beyond them, and is usually a much shrewder judge of character and human nature, too.)
Much like Ed. Who is also a (grunt work) gardener, under the direction of his older and far more experienced wife, who keeps him very busy tending four-and-a-bit acres of mixed garden, house, woodlots, and wildflower reverting-back-to-nature fields. He tells me that this afternoon he was busy watering or repotting all the herbs she had him bring into the house to overwinter (so she can fresh chives, parsley, and the like for cooking).
love,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31684 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  23:51:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hello again, all. This time I bring you the Realmslore-laden words of Ed of the Greenwood in response to this query from The Sage:
That is so cool Ed. You've my deepest thanks. And I know little Narnra's going to enjoy this material.

As always, I'll likely have a few follow-up questions. But with my own free-time not being much of a luxury at the moment, I can't get to them now. Maybe sometime in the new year [and with the opening of your '09 scroll].
quote:
So saith Ed, who intends to write a few more sample stories from time to time, Sage, to give you other things to read to Narnra.
Neat. I'll look forward to them. And when Narnra has the opportunity, she'd like to send you a special "thank you" via ethereal mail.
quote:
(And I wonder how many Narnras and Shandrils and Storms and Alustriels and Laerals and Alassras and so on are out there, as a testament to the power of Ed’s writing?)
Indeed.

The Lady K and I filtered through a long list of fantasy-derived names for a girl after we'd learnt the gender of the baby. As I recall, both Laeral and Alassra made the short-list. As did Shandril. I also added a few extra, like Nelyssa from All Shadows Fled. Ultimately, we both settled on Narnra because it was, basically, still fresh in our minds from reading Elminster's Daughter. And because it just seem to appeal to us both almost from the start.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  23:53:07  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
Hey, thank you for sharing that wonderful story with us!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2008 :  23:59:20  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
-Hey, hey. I'm not sharing!

-That's good Ed fiction, though, so good thing that that is being shared. I enjoyed it. I'll admit, I don't always enjoy his literature, but that I liked.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  00:01:16  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Heh, Rino, now you're giving ME images. Purrrrrr.


Heehee... But yes, I am taken.

quote:
And yes, I know how hot some of those geysers are (and so does Ed). However, a few of them are cooler; cool enough for a "MY, that's warm! Whooo!" short soak.


I'm glad to hear that. Warm, as opposed to hot, is nice.

quote:
And yes, I'd say El always considers consequences.
The problem is that he then (sometimes) goes ahead and does things that would make you or me shriek or wince or run screaming . . . because we've seen the exact same consequences.
(Measured against most people, however - - such as your average non-gamer and non-fantasy or sf reader - - El sees several layers of consequences beyond them, and is usually a much shrewder judge of character and human nature, too.)


True, and it doesn't seem like these buried artifacts have caused any trouble after over 100 years, so...

quote:
Much like Ed. Who is also a (grunt work) gardener, under the direction of his older and far more experienced wife, who keeps him very busy tending four-and-a-bit acres of mixed garden, house, woodlots, and wildflower reverting-back-to-nature fields. He tells me that this afternoon he was busy watering or repotting all the herbs she had him bring into the house to overwinter (so she can fresh chives, parsley, and the like for cooking).
love,
THO



Wow, that's a lot of land to work with--I must say, I'm just a little bit jealous. Woodlands, fields? There must be plenty of wildlife to be had there!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Dec 2008 00:02:19
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  00:47:14  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
Well met all, and a happy post-Solstice to those of us who live in worlds which have just had them!

I would like to know how common demonological magic (and the binding of demons into objects) is in the Realms.






I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  00:56:39  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Map in the Maztica boxed set show the circular currents, and garbage thrown into the ocean in Maztica could eventually wind up washing ashore in Waterdeep (it actually says something to that effect somewhere).

Those maps were some of the most 'artistic' ever produced for the Realms - just one more reason why it's such a shame Maztica is gone.


Would Maztican garbage wind up on the Sword Coast or would it be trapped in a gyre in the middle of the ocean, as happens in the Pacific?

(Speaking of stuff washing ashore, has any DM ever used something like the feet which wash ashore in western Canada as an adventure hook -- or a McGuffin, at least? Perhaps a skeleton covered in gold jewelry or some such thing?)











I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4266 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  04:12:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One


Something else missing from tales told by and among families, unless they’re at a shrine, is “stories of the gods.” By a tradition established very firmly by clergy, ages ago, only priests can tell such stories; for a lay person to do so, except when in a shrine or temple when all clergy are absent (and the chances of having no priests around while a family is in a temple are vanishingly small) is blasphemy at worst and rage-provoking bad taste and judgment at best. So, no “then Tempus infused him with the strength and fire of a dozen warriors” stuff, even at taverns. (For anyone to call upon a deity in a direct prayer, however [even with reference to a secondhand, perhaps fictional, event, such as “Aid me as you did the Blackhelm Knight, when that hero was fighting Kolgaura the Ravening Wyrm atop Scorchskull Hill”] is of course quite acceptable.)




This bother me, people know the deities exist and bards relate stories about them and their heros. To not mention lore/myth of a deity except at a shrine appears unlikely, religion should be part of the teaching stories IMO. I also fail to see how it would work with veneration of more then one deity. How do the children learn of lolth, Selune and the other many deities, there are not that many Clerics of the different faiths? In in some examples of larger cites the dominate religion clearly would do their best to remove clergy that opose their deity.

Oh I know real world logic does not always apply, however I also know that it was stated all/most people know the deities are real. I fail to see the balance.

As to the story it was interesting. If you can not hear a ghost can not scare you. *blink*

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Aysen
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  09:49:20  Show Profile  Visit Aysen's Homepage Send Aysen a Private Message
Season's greetings Ed, LHO, and scribes!

I'd like to add my appreciation for the story of Daronder, it was a lovely tale!

On a night where sleep just seems to escape me, I figured I'd drop by to add another question to the queue, regarding Celestial Stairs in the Realms. Some of the thoughts that passed through my head are:

1.) How many more are there beyond the 3 that I remember (Mt. Waterdeep, Castle Kilgrave (?), and Shadowdale)?

2.) Can only gods utilize them, or can mortals somehow use or benefit from them?

3.) What effect, if any, do they have on the local landscape or wildlife? Do they affect magic fields or spells (as opined in
"Blackstaff Tower")?

Thank you in advance Ed!
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Aureus
Learned Scribe

Luxembourg
118 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  17:01:12  Show Profile  Send Aureus an ICQ Message Send Aureus a Private Message
Dear Ed, THO
I sure this question has been asked many times before, but what would you do, what would likely be your job if you weren't auther/inventer of FR?

That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29652 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  17:14:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus

Dear Ed, THO
I sure this question has been asked many times before, but what would you do, what would likely be your job if you weren't auther/inventer of FR?



Ed's a librarian. His writing has been in addition to that.

The lovely Lady Hooded One has not shared her occupation. Despite her visibility on our forums, she actually maintains a high degree of privacy when it comes to her personal data... I've got a possible idea for what she does, but out of respect for her privacy, I've never publicly speculated on it.

She has dropped some tidbits here and there, but that's it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13124 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  17:49:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Running commentary -

Thanks for the good wishes Steven, and right back atcha.
You too, Jamallo, and everyone else as well.

I love gardening too, so we have something besides Realmslore in common, Rinon - it makes me nuts when I can't be outside planting and pruning. I lived with the Long Island Pine barrens on three sides of me for years, and had deer and geese and wild turkeys (yes, there are a few left) coming up to my back door. I probably miss that about my house more then the ex who got it.

Ed, I tried to get my wife to go with 'Azoun' for our 4th son, but I had to settle for 'Zachary Taylor' instead (if not fanatsy, I could still sneak-in a little history). Lovely story, BTW. I hope you enjoy living in Earth's Icewind dale.


To a guy who goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire to catch a tan, I don't think Elminster would have much problem with a Hot Spring. If bacteria can live in that, so can a guy who's got the magic of Mystra at his fingertips.

related Mini-question - Since magic is apperently 'weaker' on our world, is it harder for El to use his abilites here? (speaking theoretically of course... I'm not THAT nuts).

quote:
Originally posted by createvmind

Speaking of souls, why don't demon princes who are engaged in wars simply destroy the petitioners of the other, doesn't that weaken a demon lords power structure on its own plane? <snip>
There are many ways to get 'power', with worship being big on the list, but not the only game in town. Sacrifice is another great way, but its only good for a temporary 'burst', and then you have nothing left to play with (sort-of when you go 'all-out' in a Risk game). Gods tend to avoid such things, because killing followers tends to lessen your church in the long-run. Fiends have no such quibbles, because they can have a million tiny cults in a million different spheres, and losing a couple is no big (gods tend to concentrate their power bases, whereas Fiends use 'Guerilla tactics', and spread things around to make themselves less vulnerable).

As I said, worship is a big way of getting energy, but their are hundreds (thousands?) of other ways (like portfolio useage, power nodes, and artifacts, to name a few). AS we have seen countless times, even when a god has no mortal followers left, it still has some residual energy floating around (literally), and as for Fiends, they reform if they get killed on the prime (which is probably why they prefer to conduct most of their business there). Worship is only part of what makes-up all these Outsiders.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Would Maztican garbage wind up on the Sword Coast or would it be trapped in a gyre in the middle of the ocean, as happens in the Pacific?
Thats where Evermeet is... and Elves don't like garbage floating around their island. The magical storms and winds drive all such offending ofal far from its shores, allowing it to continue on is clockwise journey around the Trackless Sea.

So sayeth Mark, who's nobody important.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Dec 2008 15:04:28
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  18:18:56  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I love gardening as well, so we have something besides Realmslore in common, Rinon - it makes me nuts when I can't be outside planting and pruning. I lived with the Long Island Pine barrens on three sides of me for years, and had deer and geese and wild turkeys (yesa, there are a few left) coming up to my back door. I probably miss that about my house more then the ex who got it.



Turkeys are great!

And yeah, one thing I dislike about winter (I do enjoy it for the most part) is that I can't grow anything or just walk around the yard observing insects and other creatures (they're dormant, and it's cold).

With regards to what Kenital said above, I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by people not telling stories about the gods, as well. I expected the exact opposite, not only because the gods exist and people know of them, but also because I find it hard to believe that everyone would simply obey priests in this matter (among others) without question. For example, it was mentioned that at best, such stories would be considered bad taste. That might be true, but people often like stories that have a "bad taste" element to them (I know I do!)--and all the finger-wagging in the world (IMO) isn't going to stop such stories altogether. The world might be a duller place if it did.

Now, as for such stories being blasphemous at worst--I understand that, but don't the gods (at least some of them) in this setting have at least a touch of humor, or lenience? And, don't they have more important things to worry about? I just don't understand what the big deal is about a mother telling bedtime stories to her children. Then again, you didn't say what the gods thought of these stories, but rather what the priests wanted people to do.

Thanks in advance,

Rinonalyrna




"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Dec 2008 00:16:55
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13124 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  18:30:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Think medieval Eurpope and Catholic Church -

ONLY the priests were allowed 'Holy Books', and ONLY the clergy where allowed to discuss all things divine.

In FR, it wouldn't be as strict, but religions (not the gods themselves) would want to justify their existance some-what, and if everyone could teach about the gods and perform ceremonies to them, then what purpose does the church serve?

I think it's more about the priests wanting to keep a 'certain something' for themselves, rather then any commands from 'on-high' (although individual gods would each have their own particulars regarding such things).

Just my take - sorry for discussion in Ed's thread.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2008 22:28:20
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  21:29:06  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Kentinal, according to Ed's notes from a long-ago (1998?) GenCon seminar:


Children and interested adults alike learn tales of the gods at temples, from clergy, in return for their prayers (and offerings). It's eagerly-sought-after entertainment for many, both wayfarers on the road and citizens in most cities.


[end of Ed quote]
As for the deafness guarding Daronder from the ghosts in Ed's story, I took it to mean that over the years he'd become used to people he couldn't hear suddenly "appearing" in his field of view, so wasn't startled by the ghosts (and so didn't fall off battlements, etc.). And he couldn't be driven out of the castle from lack of sleep because their moans and wails couldn't disturb his slumbers. Made perfect sense to me.
Yes, the ghosts were a little different from hard-D&D rules "ghosts," but of course storytellers wouldn't distinguish between haunts, apparitions, phantoms, and ghosts. Ed's text says several times that the ghosts and their weapons can't actually harm Daronder (or presumably any living creatures).
BB

Edited by - Blueblade on 23 Dec 2008 21:29:44
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  21:38:41  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Bang on, Blueblade! Rino, you've got it right, too: Ed related the "party line" of what priests tell parents; because of this stance, parents don't tell "holy tales" to young children (who might innocently blab to a priest later), but DO tell them to pre-teens and teens when appropriate for "life lessons." Parents also, Ed has told me, proudly and freely tell tales where a god directly met or manifested for a family member or ancestor.
Moreover, most taverns will have priests telling such stories in return for ale or a few coins - - and some local taverns (in hamlets and villages) DO regularly have small children attending, even of evenings, with their parents.
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31684 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  22:37:43  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aureus

Dear Ed, THO
I sure this question has been asked many times before, but what would you do, what would likely be your job if you weren't auther/inventer of FR?



Ed's a librarian. His writing has been in addition to that.
And Ed's touched on his librarian ways several times in his replies here. They're always interesting reading.
quote:
The lovely Lady Hooded One has not shared her occupation. Despite her visibility on our forums, she actually maintains a high degree of privacy when it comes to her personal data... I've got a possible idea for what she does, but out of respect for her privacy, I've never publicly speculated on it.
Indeed. I've a few thoughts on that myself, but I'd rather we not continue this particular discussion, as the Lady Hooded One has made it clear that she would like to maintain a strict privacy policy with respect to such personal details.
quote:
She has dropped some tidbits here and there, but that's it.

Yes, and they've *nothing* to do with her supposed antics here at Candlekeep.

...

Seriously, they're subtle tidbits, but it's always fun to try and pinpoint exactly what's been said.

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  22:40:52  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message
Knowing that I'm all too busy tomorrow, I just popped in to wish Lady THO and Ed (and, naturally, all the scribes and sages here at the 'Keep), a Merry Christmas!

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe

USA
312 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2008 :  23:48:41  Show Profile  Visit AlorinDawn's Homepage  Click to see AlorinDawn's MSN Messenger address Send AlorinDawn a Private Message
Ed & THO

Happy holidays to you both! I hate to admit it, but I've never read any Fritz Leiber and have decided to remedy this. If you two could suggest just one of the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser books, which would it be?

Currently reading: Eyes of The Dragon by Stephen King

Long live Sniffy Wigglebottom
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2008 :  00:32:55  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Bang on, Blueblade! Rino, you've got it right, too: Ed related the "party line" of what priests tell parents; because of this stance, parents don't tell "holy tales" to young children (who might innocently blab to a priest later), but DO tell them to pre-teens and teens when appropriate for "life lessons." Parents also, Ed has told me, proudly and freely tell tales where a god directly met or manifested for a family member or ancestor.
Moreover, most taverns will have priests telling such stories in return for ale or a few coins - - and some local taverns (in hamlets and villages) DO regularly have small children attending, even of evenings, with their parents.
love to all,
THO



Thanks for clarifying that, THO. And Markus your input was appreciated as well.

Merry Christmas everyone! Santa's on his way, in his sleigh!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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