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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2010 :  18:33:02  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart


That's not to say you aren't correct, high level non-spellcasters did have problems (in every edition since first). Now, Pathfinder's corrected some of those problems, as did 4th Edition. But, IMO, it hasn't been erased completely in either rules because of Wishes (unless 4E got rid of it?).


Yep, Wish is pretty much no-more in 4E and I say good-riddance. But I'll agree with you that Pathfinder did a much better job at making higher level play enjoyable for non-spellcasters.


So... if Wish is gone in 4E, and this is a retcon, not a change storylined in by the Spellplague, then that means that Vangerdahast never freed Nalavarauthatoryl, and therefore that Azoun and Tanalasta didn't die... at least, they didn't die the way they did in "Death of the Dragon"... therefore, we must conclude that all changes in magic in the 4E Realms are a consequence of the Spellplague, not a retcon at all. This, among many other things, is part of why time travel is a bad idea...


Wait, why are we talking about retcons? Just because theres an inability to cast Wish spells in 1479 DR doesn't mean that people in previous eras didn't cast them. Magic changed due to the spellplague but spells casted by say....Karsus still happened and there really weren't many retcons involving the 4eFR except for maybe Moon/Sun elves always being Eladrin.

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk


I could easily go off on a rant here, and while it wouldn't be off-topic for this scroll to do so, it's a rant I've done before, and I've deduced some very interesting things recently that make the OP's rant topic (the death of Mystra) far more tolerable. For the curious, read the lore... particularly that regarding Mystryl's and Mystra's relationship to the Weave and the circumstances of all three deaths of the goddess. My theory is posted in Ed's scroll, within the previous few days (if I remembered the exact date of every interesting thought I've had, I wouldn't have room to remember the interesting thoughts themselves).



While I've little interest in Mystra or her demise I don't think it was needed honestly. First, it really angered many Realms fans which wasn't a good idea. Second, the weave could EASILY support the 4E magic system mainly because mechanics of D&D and lore don't necessarily have to mesh well. In fact, 4E still utilized the Vancian system (albiet heavily modified) and little in novels go so far as to specifically make notice of this magic system.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2010 :  19:21:32  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree on all counts, Diffan; I was just pointing out that if the absence of wish is a retcon (like the eladrin thing, which I ignore completely and always will), it really messes with 3E canon, not to mention earlier events. The butchering of magic (in particular the spell list; I actually like the idea of "at-will" spells, and I'm working on doing away with Vancian casting in the 3.x/Pathfinder ruleset framework) and the death of Mystra were the two biggest problems I had with 4E and the 4E Realms (largely because their bastard child was the Spellplague, which could have been far better executed).

In any case, it's done, and Diffan: if you haven't done so already, you really need to read Elminster Must Die... it just may be the best novel Ed has written; it's certainly his best since Elminster in Hell.

(and yes, the novel is relevant to the post topic)

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 11 Sep 2010 19:22:32
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13089 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2010 :  19:38:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.

That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).

At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.

IMHO, of course.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2010 :  19:56:58  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.

That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).

At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.

IMHO, of course.



I agree with you on many of those points Markus, yet I don't feel the Spellplague was really needed to bring in the new magic system. I can't recall one novel where it specifically states "Wizards in the Realms use the Vancian system of magic." just that wizards prepare spells from their spellbooks and often have to rest to regain the power to cast them again. Nothing in 4E mechanics changes this. They could've easily done FR with everything as is in 1375 DR without changing anything save Eladrin always having been Sun/Moon/Star elves. Aside from that, getting back to the main topic Mystra didn't really need to be killed to introduce the magic sstem since it was already supported by canon from the first place.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2010 :  21:44:13  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.

That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).

At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.

IMHO, of course.



Actually, now that the terminology's sorted out, I agree with you 100%. After my initial response when it all got unveiled, and for too many months thereafter, I can and do appreciate the Spellplague conceptually... and I wish the implementation had been handled a bit more plausibly. Of course, that's the way things work in Hollywood, too... nobody ever does remakes of the good scripts that had flawed production; everyone just does inferior remakes of the great movies that can never be surpassed. It's like Tinseltown is in pursuit of mediocrity. And no, I'm not saying that's what's happening with the Realms, but if you look at the Spellplague as a "remake" of the Time of Troubles, the metaphor fits pretty well. I liked the ToT, in almost every detail of its implementation, apart from the deaths of the Dark Three, and compared with the Spellplague, its execution was near-perfect; true, there were some hiccups with consistency, but those got ironed out with "For Duty and Deity" and the novels following the Avatar Trilogy (just don't mention Bahamut). I could be biased, because the introduction of 2E was when I started DMing in the Realms (in the OGB and Dragon-article days I did no DMing), but it just seemed to me that the effects of the ToT were original in a way that the effects of the Spellplague were not. I'm probably not the best person to do the compare-and-contrast (due to my self-perceived bias), but if someone else wants to put one together (or has already done so), I'd be very interested in perusing it.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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silken
Acolyte

Canada
3 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2010 :  04:42:51  Show Profile  Visit silken's Homepage Send silken a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow was this ever an interesting discussion to follow. I just finished reading The Ghost King and I absolutely wanted to know what the hell happened to Mystra beyond Cyric & Shar killed her.

The link provided in here made my jaw drop with it's lack of creativity. I can only hope someone somewhere in WoTC is going to come up with something more akin to the logical explanations and reasoning I came across here.

I am also in awe of how much you guys/gals know about this stuff. I haven't played tabletop OR computer game in years and years and have only been reading books now and again. You guys make me want to find my dice and have a go at it all again.
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silken
Acolyte

Canada
3 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2010 :  05:01:56  Show Profile  Visit silken's Homepage Send silken a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well...seems I jumped to conclusions and now I'm even more full of questions...:)
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2010 :  15:41:16  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silken

Well...seems I jumped to conclusions and now I'm even more full of questions...:)



Read Elminster Must Die and all will be revealed.
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe

Philippines
124 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2010 :  18:01:17  Show Profile  Visit creyzi4zb12's Homepage Send creyzi4zb12 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, you should read the books...will make you less angry.

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Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
217 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2010 :  11:31:51  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember some years ago when the Spellplague hits me very hardly... I was shocked by the absolute lack of details about the event!

So I tried to put the pieces together (as others did) devising my own house-made version of the murder of Mystra... (posted here on CK for comments)...

I was somehow relieved by the fact that the authors in more than one occasion stated that they know how things really went...

But until now (maybe I'm wrong), aside from clues, obscure prophecies or visions, teasers and partial descriptions I'm still expectant the "official" complete version of it.

How longer should we have to wait?
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2011 :  12:46:23  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch


But until now (maybe I'm wrong), aside from clues, obscure prophecies or visions, teasers and partial descriptions I'm still expectant the "official" complete version of it.

How longer should we have to wait?



I doubt we'll ever receive a full accounting of the "true" events that took place for the Spellplague. The fact that it's a veiled and obscured event is actually one of it's appealing features. This speculation can help any DM to create his own Why, Hows, and What if scenarios without contradicting Canon.

Writers are blocked from saying anything due to NDAs in case someone wants to expand on that specific topic. Until some novel comes out describing MORE on what happend or there is some sourcebook with further info, it'll probably remain a big ol' ?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2011 :  19:33:54  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that ed will be the one to tell the story of mystra's demise when he brings her back in his latest series. The whole spellplague thing was very poorly explained, especially in a world that has become used to such rich detail.
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Delanish
Seeker

Canada
27 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  15:45:50  Show Profile  Visit Delanish's Homepage Send Delanish a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra

First time- Karcus tried to Imprison her bescause he's insane (i'm fine with that)

Second time- Mystra found out Bane Bhaal and Mykrul stole the tablets Helm wouldn't let her see Ao and knocked her down (him being still god status and she being a power mortal) I'm fine with that

Third time- Not me i don't buy it there was no real Resistance with Mystra her personally and Midnight (The Mortal she took over to begun the Third Mystra) Personally would never sit back and let it happen, Where the hell was Blackstaff, Eliminister, Halastier to let all the harper scouts, The children of Mystra (ones that are left)

Also Sune joining the House of Triad NO!!, Who idea was that?
What i really hate they killed out some of my favorite dwarf gods in the transfer Brightaxe and Gorm. Gorm was a slowly dying god in 3rd everyone knew bescause he gave essance of himself to protect and save the dwarvern homes and his followers he overly cared for his people and was a defender.

Edited by - Delanish on 02 Feb 2011 15:48:39
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe

Philippines
124 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  23:09:33  Show Profile  Visit creyzi4zb12's Homepage Send creyzi4zb12 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra may not be stupid, but she does have restrictions in common sense as a goddess. So maybe that could be an explanation as to how Cyric beat her to that logic.

orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  14:17:55  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delanish


Also Sune joining the House of Triad NO!!, Who idea was that?
What i really hate they killed out some of my favorite dwarf gods in the transfer Brightaxe and Gorm. Gorm was a slowly dying god in 3rd everyone knew bescause he gave essance of himself to protect and save the dwarvern homes and his followers he overly cared for his people and was a defender.



Sune is no longer in Celestia or the House of the Traid. The Triad is Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut. Sune back where she belongs. She only, breifly, resided with the House of the Traid during the whole Tyr/Helm debacle (which Cyric somehow had a hand in). While I'm not big on the Soap Opera that happend there, it's not impossible to belief since the Deities in Forgotten Realms have flaws just like Mortals do.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe

Philippines
124 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2011 :  16:30:01  Show Profile  Visit creyzi4zb12's Homepage Send creyzi4zb12 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually deities in the realms have more bounds and limitations compared to mortals. For example, most of them cannot go against their portfolio, even Mystra (Midnight) and Kelemvor were refused to feel emotion later on in the final books of Avatar series.
As to Cyric, his portfolio is kind of weird, it seems like a god of madness has very little limitations,especially when you're actually cured from that madness (remember the last book in Avatar Series?).

orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc

Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 24 Feb 2011 16:34:02
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Matt128
Seeker

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2011 :  21:33:57  Show Profile Send Matt128 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm just curious in the present time in the realms is there still magic or did they remove it and dumb it down? Reading about various things on the realms I cannot figure it out I have not started reading the novels yet Just been reading the history and lore from wiki and played the crap out of all the D&D realms games and would like to get into D&D board games like LFR. The last thing it says is After the Spellplague, Elminster returned to Shadowdale and took up residence on Storm Silverhand's farm, still immortal, but no longer a chosen since the death of Mystra. He still wields considerable arcane power, but using it drives him insane. He is one of 3 Chosen of Mystra known to survive the Spellplague the others being the Simbul, who went insane, and Storm, who now lives with and cares for Elminster she is the only one who can cure his insanity after using magic. So they took away the magic from the realms Or am I wrong? They had Cyric kill mystra he also killed helm or had a hand in that? Why does it say Mystryl is still alive? Someone was saying they are going to use vancian magic. Which sounds very lame I read about it. But I'm not sure I don't know a whole lot about it but I read that there are spell scars you get in areas still affected by spell plague thats somthing ED made. Does Ed even have control of FR or is it all WoTC? I don't know a whole lot about the realms I'm just confused I guess. One day did WoTC just come to TSR Gary or ED and be like we will buy your idea and offered them a substantial amount of money and Ed and Gary were like okay sure? Now they are just butchering the game because the people who created d&d and the realms don't own it anymore or only to a extent? It would be nice if they had someone who could keep it right after Ed is gone and not let it fall to ruin like maybe someone who has all the knowledge I'm sure there are tons of people who do. If I'm not wrong about magic being gone from the realms whos bright idea was that? And whats this about them killing off all these gods because there are to many of them? That's what I found interesting about the realms is that there is so much rich detail and culture. Why would you want to take away the magic and mysteriousness of the realms? Sounds like they are trying to dumb it down so they can make a bigger market for people who are lazy like they do with every other thing just like pc gaming they are ruining that to consoles are at least. And if there is no magic in the realms then what about priests. This is up setting me I have always been a big fan of the realms and I would hate for it to get twisted into a low end POJ MMO style type thing. I like the way it was All the events from year 1372 DR and before are okay I think. Maybe there might be exciting things after but taking away magic I don't want them to ruin the realms. Why take magic away from something or change it into a poorer form. So what no more magic missiles? There are so many things tied to magic Unicorns Horn mythal all the magic items potions events places blade singers. Sehanine Moonbow can help against madness or something like that wonder what that god has to play in this? What about elven magic? There is just so much stuff. I am also disappointed in the new NWN only a few classes? MMO style game? Why even make a new NWN if the city of Neverwinter is destroyed now. Sounds like the golden age of gaming is dead. Everything is being butchered. Sorry for mashing all my unorganized thoughts together making it a unpleasant to read.

Edited by - Matt128 on 19 Jun 2011 22:00:59
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29636 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2011 :  22:23:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt128

Sorry for mashing all my unorganized thoughts together making it a unpleasant to read.



Yeah, the wall of text is not easy to read... But to answer a couple of questions, yes, magic still exists in the Realms, and at no time since its publication has Ed controlled the published Realms. He's never even been a TSR/WotC employee. And since the IP was bought from him, they can do whatever they want to it, and they aren't even obligated to tell him, beforehand.

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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2011 :  10:43:18  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra can hardly be any smarter than the designers

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3273 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2011 :  13:56:26  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to attempt to address some of your concerns and questions here:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128

I'm just curious in the present time in the realms is there still magic or did they remove it and dumb it down?


Not really sure how you interpret "dumbing it down" but Magic is still strongly present in the Realms, just not governed by a God nor the Weave. Still, it's the best form of High Fantasy in D&D yet.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


Reading about various things on the realms I cannot figure it out I have not started reading the novels yet Just been reading the history and lore from wiki and played the crap out of all the D&D realms games and would like to get into D&D board games like LFR.


LFR would be a phenominal place to start gaming in the Realms. Check out any of your local LFGS (use the Store Locator on the WotC site) and you can try a LFR campaign for free.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


The last thing it says is After the Spellplague, Elminster returned to Shadowdale and took up residence on Storm Silverhand's farm, still immortal, but no longer a chosen since the death of Mystra. He still wields considerable arcane power, but using it drives him insane. He is one of 3 Chosen of Mystra known to survive the Spellplague the others being the Simbul, who went insane, and Storm, who now lives with and cares for Elminster she is the only one who can cure his insanity after using magic. So they took away the magic from the realms Or am I wrong?


While El, The Simbul, and Storm are the only surviving Chosen of Mystra, magic is still very vibrant in the Forgotten Realms. It's because the Weave is gone and Mystra is (was?) dead that the Chosen diminished.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


They had Cyric kill mystra he also killed helm or had a hand in that? Why does it say Mystryl is still alive? Someone was saying they are going to use vancian magic. Which sounds very lame I read about it. But I'm not sure I don't know a whole lot about it but I read that there are spell scars you get in areas still affected by spell plague thats somthing ED made.


Cyric killed Mystra with the help of Shar. He is also rumored to have a hand in the feud between Tyr and Helm, as both attempted to court the Goddess Tymora. The result was that Tyr killed Helm and in his grief, left the House of the Triad to Torm and went off into the Abyss on a suicide run to kill as many demons/devils as possible. I sorta like the dramatic ending .

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


Does Ed even have control of FR or is it all WoTC? I don't know a whole lot about the realms I'm just confused I guess. One day did WoTC just come to TSR Gary or ED and be like we will buy your idea and offered them a substantial amount of money and Ed and Gary were like okay sure? Now they are just butchering the game because the people who created d&d and the realms don't own it anymore or only to a extent? It would be nice if they had someone who could keep it right after Ed is gone and not let it fall to ruin like maybe someone who has all the knowledge I'm sure there are tons of people who do.


As Wooly mentioned, Ed doesn't own the IP to it and I think even the 3E version is far, far different than his own home-version (or as some might say "True Realms"). But just because the timeline progressed to a point that your not comfortable with, doesn't mean that it's all gone or destroyed. It just means that you'll play in a different era or make changes that you like and disregard what you don't. And just because someone is knowledgeable about the Realms shouldn't mean they're ideas or interpretations of the Realms is the best for everyone. That pleasure is left to the Designers of WotC (only joking you designer-guys).

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


And whats this about them killing off all these gods because there are to many of them? That's what I found interesting about the realms is that there is so much rich detail and culture. Why would you want to take away the magic and mysteriousness of the realms?



The Forgotten Realms still have the most divese and expansive Pantheon in any current D&D setting. By almost a 3 to 1 margin. What they did do was downsize the amount of information published about those deities. I'm a big fan of this myself as I saw a pretty robust Pantheon and frankly...I didn't like it either. But just because a Deity isn't mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide doesn't mean they don't exist anymore. They just don't have the popularity or importance to be mentioned (like Lurue for example...who is still there if I'm not mistaken).

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


Sounds like they are trying to dumb it down so they can make a bigger market for people who are lazy like they do with every other thing, just like PC gaming they are ruining that to consoles are at least. And if there is no magic in the realms then what about priests. This is up setting me I have always been a big fan of the realms and I would hate for it to get twisted into a low end POJ MMO style type thing.


Again, I'm not sure what is meant by "dumbing it down" but there is as much (or as little) complexity as you desire based on what you want to put into it. The intrigue of Sembia and Amn is still there. The Wild Frontiers of "The North" are more dangerous than ever. Baldur's Gate has a larger population which means more adventures or exciting things to do. There are still Dragons, Liches, Shades, Drow, Monstrous humanoids, and everything else prior to 1372 DR active in the Realms to face off against or join up with. So some examples might be more helpful to illustrate what frustrations your seeing. As stated, Magic still exists as do Divine magic and clerics, paladins, avengers, and the like. As for the MMO, that'd be up to your DM/GM and not to the current system. If your DM/GM is green or inexperienced, then 4E-FR might seem more "gamish" to you since the rules for combat are spelled out in "squares", "combat-powers", "Stances", Attacks vs. Defense, but that's just combat. Be more dynamic in your playing and combat and it looses that MMO feeling pretty quickly.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


I like the way it was All the events from year 1372 DR and before are okay I think. Maybe there might be exciting things after but taking away magic I don't want them to ruin the realms. Why take magic away from something or change it into a poorer form. So what no more magic missiles? There are so many things tied to magic: Unicorns Horn, mythals, all the magic items, potions, events, places, blade singers, etc.


Magic Missile is still there, trust me. Though it's not as potent a spell as it was in previous editions. Because of complaining from....certain people, magic missile was redone to automatically hit one target but with a static damage. It's now 2 + Intelligence modifier and increases with Tier (3 + intelligence modifer at 11th level, 5 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level) which is bad since most magical items and powers are based off of Damage Roll, which Magic Missile doesn't have . But other things you mentioned, such as Magic Items, Potions, Blade Singers are all still there and are apart of the setting and game.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


What about elven magic? There is just so much stuff. I am also disappointed in the new NWN only a few classes? MMO style game? Why even make a new NWN if the city of Neverwinter is destroyed now. Sounds like the golden age of gaming is dead. Everything is being butchered. Sorry for mashing all my unorganized thoughts together making it a unpleasant to read.



Elven magic is as potent as it was in v3.5 (how potent or extensive that was, well is based up to you). As for the new NWN game, I'm going to hold reservations until I actually play it and see how fun or cool it is before I judge it. I'm hoping is like Dragon Age or Guild Wars in combat and NOT like World of Warcraft (which I played extensively for 6-8 months). Neverwinter has seen some hard times, though we don't know why, what, or from who. So we don't know the damage done to the city or what state it's in. I'm hoping the Game is about rebuilding the city and taking on assignments to stop attacks against it. As for gaming being butcherd, I can't disagree more. While FR as made a turn in a different direction, I can feel it's more alive than ever. It's more popular than ever and there are so many games out there that 4E D&D isn't the only kid on the Block. If you prefer v3.5 or Pathfinder, I'd suggest trying those out as well or play all 3 like me!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Jun 2011 :  18:07:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Matt128, you may wish to look into the Pathfinder RPG. It's an updated version of the 3.5E rules, and has garnered a lot of support -- enough that I'm sure some WotC execs are cursing the OGL that made it possible.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Jun 2011 :  20:11:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Matt128, you may wish to look into the Pathfinder RPG. It's an updated version of the 3.5E rules, and has garnered a lot of support -- enough that I'm sure some WotC execs are cursing the OGL that made it possible.




Yeah, one of my friends said pathfinder was pretty good. I never picked it up. But, I have a disdain for 4E. Maybe I should look into it. Though, I have finally broken the 30 year noose of always having to buy gaming material.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2011 :  05:47:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Matt128, you may wish to look into the Pathfinder RPG. It's an updated version of the 3.5E rules, and has garnered a lot of support -- enough that I'm sure some WotC execs are cursing the OGL that made it possible.




Yeah, one of my friends said pathfinder was pretty good. I never picked it up. But, I have a disdain for 4E. Maybe I should look into it. Though, I have finally broken the 30 year noose of always having to buy gaming material.



If it wasn't for Pathfinder, my monthly expenditures on gaming material would be approaching $0. As it is, Pathfinder is now getting most of the money WotC once got from me.

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Matt128
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Posted - 26 Jun 2011 :  06:54:00  Show Profile Send Matt128 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giant Walls of Text:

Thank you guys and especially Diffan for taking the time to respond to my individual questions. I kind of over reacted, I don't know all to much about the realms really. I want to get around to ordering some of the books to start off and get better immersed in it. I made a thread last year I think about where to start on the books and how to get into LFR and some other threads all of which I will follow if I can get around to it. Pathfinder looks cool I will have to to try that out as well if I get a chance. I will most likely have to find a place to play it with people I'm kind of nervous to go up to lone star comics (seeing as I live in Texas(No I do not have a accent (No I am not a hick) not sure if they do that there or if there a better place to go like WotC store or places that host LFR.

Anyway sorry for jumping to conclusions like that without knowing more. When I wrote that I was really tired and lazy I edited a few times to add more stuff in. All I mean by dumbing things down is taking games and making them less or producing games that aren't as good as the older ones. Dragon age was cool I had fun playing it I like how there were choices you could make like let the humans go if you played as a elf or have sexual relations with that succubus which I did with my female wizard(having a nude mod) lol I don't care you can laugh at me look at Witcher games, there is nudity in those games and I havane't even played it yet. Also it adds to the realism. After a while it got old though killing dark spawn after dark spawn there was not that good of a variety and character system but I did like the graphics. I played Dragon Age Orgins until I think the end when you are going up that castle but I ran out of lyrium potions and ended up getting smashed on by the never end hoard of dark spawn and those mini dragons that fly in. Mass effect is another example. Both of these games use the pause play action like Baldurs Gate feature but they seem like shorter stories with less juice(note mass effect glitched up when I got to Sarens Girl friend or what ever and I never finsihed DA due to it was impossible because I did not have enough lyrium pots In my opinion those are flaws) yet they are made by the same reputable company BioWare(I teared up at the end of baldurs gate series I didn't flat out cry but I have never felt anything like that from a game yet the developers put crude pornographic remarks in the code in some of the files in the guts/directory of the game is for a joke out of boredom or they were not that serious for whatever reason still a good game) but who am I to judge people slaved day and night over these games(referring to the games I'm criticizing DA and ME) hell I could not do anything like that unless I taught my self or actually tried and got educated to do so but still I give props to people who have the endurance to sit there and develop those games, it was grueling enough making custom campaign scenarios on star craft using basic trigger functions in great numbers and custom toolsets. Sorry if I'm getting off topic here. Operation flash point they took this game and made it to where it could play on console in doing so there can no be as many Entities at once and it is no longer a simulator. Still it was a great game though. I hear skyrim will only have a less amount of caves and places to explore then oblivion had though I am not sure about that. It just seems like they are taking games and dumbing them down for console or for the masses because they know everybody will buy them if they can get it on console. I may be wrong but it seems like console gaming is ruining PC gaming in a way. Someone debated saying that Brink has tons of nodes at once meaning a butt ton of players can join in at once and you can leave war zones and go to others. I still stand by my side though about games being dumb down It doesn't seem like games are getting any better as far as fun I mean it seems like games are getting shorter and just not as fun though we all have our different opinions. I remember doing Bhaal runs till the crack of dawn making my godly characters after they had been hell rushed. I will miss my dragondin and light sorc. That was the magic I felt that I have not felt sense in gaming the magic I feel in the realms. I just don't want to see it turn to a lesser but you have reassured me and I should not jump to conclusion until I know more about what I am talking about. Anyways I am in the middle of making my party for IWDII I have never beat it I just got done beating IWDHoW but I skipped TOL but I will probably go back and play it in the future. Once again thanks.

Edited by - Matt128 on 26 Jun 2011 07:12:40
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Diffan
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Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  12:50:23  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt128

Giant wall of text:


Paragraphs man, paragraphs!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


I kind of over reacted, I don't know all to much about the realms really. I want to get around to ordering some of the books to start off and get better immersed in it. I made a thread last year I think about where to start on the books and how to get into LFR and some other threads all of which I will follow if I can get around to it. Pathfinder looks cool I will have to to try that out as well if I get a chance. I will most likely have to find a place to play it with people I'm kind of nervous to go up to lone star comics (seeing as I live in Texas(No I do not have a accent (No I am not a hick) not sure if they do that there or if there a better place to go like WotC store or places that host LFR.



The store locator on the WotC site gives you the stores around you that run D&D encounters and LFR campaigns. This is where I'd start, at least to get a feeling for how 4E plays. They often run other games as well like v3.5, Pathfinder, and some others.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt128


All I mean by dumbing things down is taking games and making them less or producing games that aren't as good as the older ones.


Right I get that, but I'm confused because you've made references to video games so I'm wondering if your more mad at the way those are being created as opposed to Pen and Paper games like Dungeons and Dragons? I feel the two are vastly different in game play and style, even Baldur's Gate (based off of AD&D rules) plays differently than an actual AD&D pen and paper game.

As for video games, I like the direction Mass Effect and Dragon Age took for it's combat simulation. The 3rd person shooter is popular now (thanks to previous games like Gears of War) and the pause-action is definitly a boon to combat-design. The story for DA is very straight forward and I've gotten probably 1/4 the way thorough so far. It's been fun so far but lacks the real-time combat of Mass Effect, much like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. I've also played and beaten both Mass Effect 1 & 2 and I think that game is simply amazing. The combat is great fun, very interactive with little to no gliches and I like how they made each class much different than the other. Mass Effect 2 makes things like Picking locks and disabling security devices SOOO much more fun because you can actually do it as opposed to just having skills in that area. And the Story line keeps the player engaged throughout the game, with choices that actually have consequences in the present and future (thoughout both games too!)


4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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