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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 09:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not that Gods can't have a hand in doing things on the prime-material plane, just maybe not soo much?
I agree, but 4e could have changed that more simply, even saying that gods became mysteriously distant like in Eberron would be a better solution.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I have a problem with Egypt taken pretty much straight from Earth (gods and all) and *ploped* into the Realms. I don't care for the feel of the Egyptian theme nor would I ever want to run that style of campaign. I have absolutely no use for it what-so-ever. And as for Maztica and the "new world" idea, never cared for that as well. Now that could be because they never fully developed the concept but I want to play in a Fantasy setting, not "hey, lets play conquistadors and take all the Aztecs.....er.....Maztican gold!" Just not feeling it.
If you look more closely it becomes clear that Mulhorand and ancient Egypt are quite different. Don't get me wrong, personally I'd add a lot more twists. E.g. our version of Mulhorand is in northern Zakhara, shattered and dead like Osiris, Tomb-kings-like land, with undead immortals, a river of blood, Anubite armies, akh-spirits, ak-chazar rakshasas and scarab swarms. How is that not fantasy, all of it comes from Earth unless it's Lovecraftian (a problem of describing it to the pcs). Unless they do series of books about cultures unique only to FR (includes customs not seen on Earth, with pictures of their alien styles and architectures) and they become more interesting than the ones from mythology I will continue to use Earthly analogues. It's much easier that way, saves a lot of time. I don't care for Maztica like you do for Mulhorand, for now, but I'm sure something great can be done with it, kaboom is not the answer. From the description in FRCG do you have any idea how High Imaskar looks like or about their society, there is simply not enough information, you say it gives freedom to the DM, I say it's time consuming and what's stopping me from making my own setting from scratch, it's almost the same. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 15:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not that Gods can't have a hand in doing things on the prime-material plane, just maybe not soo much?
I agree, but 4e could have changed that more simply, even saying that gods became mysteriously distant like in Eberron would be a better solution.
Yea, when I came to Mystra I would've liked to see her diminished slightly and have a lesser influence on the Realms. And more information on her less-than-goody two shoes Chosen would've done wonders to show her other sides and LN alignment.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I have a problem with Egypt taken pretty much straight from Earth (gods and all) and *ploped* into the Realms. I don't care for the feel of the Egyptian theme nor would I ever want to run that style of campaign. I have absolutely no use for it what-so-ever. And as for Maztica and the "new world" idea, never cared for that as well. Now that could be because they never fully developed the concept but I want to play in a Fantasy setting, not "hey, lets play conquistadors and take all the Aztecs.....er.....Maztican gold!" Just not feeling it.
If you look more closely it becomes clear that Mulhorand and ancient Egypt are quite different. Don't get me wrong, personally I'd add a lot more twists. E.g. our version of Mulhorand is in northern Zakhara, shattered and dead like Osiris, Tomb-kings-like land, with undead immortals, a river of blood, Anubite armies, akh-spirits, ak-chazar rakshasas and scarab swarms. How is that not fantasy, all of it comes from Earth unless it's Lovecraftian (a problem of describing it to the pcs). Unless they do series of books about cultures unique only to FR (includes customs not seen on Earth, with pictures of their alien styles and architectures) and they become more interesting than the ones from mythology I will continue to use Earthly analogues. It's much easier that way, saves a lot of time. I don't care for Maztica like you do for Mulhorand, for now, but I'm sure something great can be done with it, kaboom is not the answer. From the description in FRCG do you have any idea how High Imaskar looks like or about their society, there is simply not enough information, you say it gives freedom to the DM, I say it's time consuming and what's stopping me from making my own setting from scratch, it's almost the same.
Of course when you have a fantasy setting there are going to be aspect of our own world involved and transposed into the Fantasy setting. Look at the era of play with armor, medieval/renaissance style weapons, the style of clothing, caste societies, etc....but that's pretty broad and it's style is seen throughout most of Wester, Central, and some of Eastern Faerun. But then there is this world inside a world that just screams RL too much. Maybe it's just me, but I've never cared for that sort of style. Call it personal preference.
As for the lore- and setting-lite approach, there's always something a DM has to do to make it fit their campaign regardless of what specific setting it is. For myself, I love the freedom to do what I want w/o contradicting canon over-much. I'm not one who needs every NPC statted out or the information on every inn/bar in a specific town or city. I do that stuff already and now I don't have to worry about it contradicting canon over-much. Now you might ask "If I like doing all the leg work, why not jus run your own campaign setting?" And to that I'd say because the history/lore, deities, organizations, cities, and plot hooks that are intrinsic to the Realms. |
Edited by - Diffan on 05 Sep 2010 15:07:27 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yea, when I came to Mystra I would've liked to see her diminished slightly and have a lesser influence on the Realms. And more information on her less-than-goody two shoes Chosen would've done wonders to show her other sides and LN alignment.
Here's the problem. As has been discussed before, the stories told are decided by Wizards of the Coast. And Wizards of the Coast, a business, wants to print stories that sell. And stories about less-than-goody two shoes do not sell as well as the Chosen that regularly save the Realms.
How do you resolve the two? You (and many like you) were upset that the stories being told seemed to crowd out your attempts to be the main heroes of the Realms. But the reason those stories were told were because that was what the public wanted. So, your vocal minority reached the ears of Wizards of the Coast and they sought a solution to get you to spend your money and hopefully get some other new players as well. But, and this is key, the public still wants those novels of the heroes saving the Realms, so you're STILL going to have Drizzt and Elminster out there 'overshadowing' the PCs in your game.
What you're left with is the post-Spellplague Realms that most of the old fans don't like, and the people that DO like it will wind up complaining about the same thing in another 3-5 years when situation returns. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 03:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yea, when I came to Mystra I would've liked to see her diminished slightly and have a lesser influence on the Realms. And more information on her less-than-goody two shoes Chosen would've done wonders to show her other sides and LN alignment.
Here's the problem. As has been discussed before, the stories told are decided by Wizards of the Coast. And Wizards of the Coast, a business, wants to print stories that sell. And stories about less-than-goody two shoes do not sell as well as the Chosen that regularly save the Realms.
How do you resolve the two? You (and many like you) were upset that the stories being told seemed to crowd out your attempts to be the main heroes of the Realms. But the reason those stories were told were because that was what the public wanted. So, your vocal minority reached the ears of Wizards of the Coast and they sought a solution to get you to spend your money and hopefully get some other new players as well. But, and this is key, the public still wants those novels of the heroes saving the Realms, so you're STILL going to have Drizzt and Elminster out there 'overshadowing' the PCs in your game.
What you're left with is the post-Spellplague Realms that most of the old fans don't like, and the people that DO like it will wind up complaining about the same thing in another 3-5 years when situation returns.
This is pretty much why I've given up trying to stay with canon. Do I like to keep base with it in my Realms, yes but I no longer let the adventures and victories of the uber-epic NPCs affect my games. Plus, I haven't really read that many novels in post-spellplague Realms.
But I think the novelists at WotC could do something with a non-CG/NG/LG anti-hero Chosen of Mystra and make it exciting and worth-while to read. Heck, I would've even taken a small blurb, short story, or minor mention in a sourcebook about Mystra's less than honorable favorites and I think some here would agree.
But it all comes down to how you use the information and how you let it affect you and your game.
But lets take....Shadowdale: Scourge of the Land adventure from 3.5 for a quick example. [SPOILER ALERT] In the adventure, Elminster's tower is destroyed and he and his Chosen friends are no where in sight. This makes it acceptable for the PCs to wade in and save the day. But the way I see it is that they have to get rid of those character in order to run the adventure least those specific characters swoop in and save the day. So the only way to run an adventure in an area populated with epic-level characters is to have them removed in some fashion as to "make way" for the PCs and that I don't like. I've preceived that these characters can often lead to questions like "Why does my character need to help defend Silverymoon when Alustriel can be there lickety-split on a flaming chariot and spellfire-napalm the bad-guys with no fuss?" To me, it's not so much their stories but how far reaching their arms can be and the power they hold that has me scratching my head. |
Edited by - Diffan on 06 Sep 2010 03:30:24 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 04:30:44
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I've preceived that these characters can often lead to questions like "Why does my character need to help defend Silverymoon when Alustriel can be there lickety-split on a flaming chariot and spellfire-napalm the bad-guys with no fuss?"
[/quote]
Because you have a good alignment, or if not because you were paid to. Plus if you worked all the canon officials full-time in the most efficient manner possible; there would still be more plots, hordes, monsters, disasters, wars, and other problems going on than they could handle.
If someone really stays away from the Realms because of the Chosen they either lack perspective or they had a bad time with a worse a DM. After all, every fantasy world has its major heroes. Would they not play in Middle Earth because of the Fellowship? |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 07:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan<snip>
But lets take....Shadowdale: Scourge of the Land adventure from 3.5 for a quick example. [SPOILER ALERT] In the adventure, Elminster's tower is destroyed and he and his Chosen friends are no where in sight. This makes it acceptable for the PCs to wade in and save the day. But the way I see it is that they have to get rid of those character in order to run the adventure least those specific characters swoop in and save the day. So the only way to run an adventure in an area populated with epic-level characters is to have them removed in some fashion as to "make way" for the PCs and that I don't like. I've preceived that these characters can often lead to questions like "Why does my character need to help defend Silverymoon when Alustriel can be there lickety-split on a flaming chariot and spellfire-napalm the bad-guys with no fuss?" To me, it's not so much their stories but how far reaching their arms can be and the power they hold that has me scratching my head.
I have to disagree. Every published entry of Shadowdale pretty much states that if the players are in town and wanna talk to the Old Sage, they'll find him either not at home, or will turn them away. Now, the Shadowdale adventure was unique in that it tried to tie in the whole Mythal Gate novels with a campaign adventure that took the PCs up against agents of Shar.
And, in the case of Alustriel, check out RAS' Hunter's Blades trilogy. Shows a pretty good example that the Chosen are NOT as powerful as showing up in a flaming chariot and napalming the bad guys. As Ed and THO have said time and again, they are agents of Mystra first and being so means that Mystra may not WANT them to do that, no matter what the Chosen wants. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 16:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But lets take....Shadowdale: Scourge of the Land adventure from 3.5 for a quick example. [SPOILER ALERT] In the adventure, Elminster's tower is destroyed and he and his Chosen friends are no where in sight. This makes it acceptable for the PCs to wade in and save the day. But the way I see it is that they have to get rid of those character in order to run the adventure least those specific characters swoop in and save the day. So the only way to run an adventure in an area populated with epic-level characters is to have them removed in some fashion as to "make way" for the PCs and that I don't like. I've preceived that these characters can often lead to questions like "Why does my character need to help defend Silverymoon when Alustriel can be there lickety-split on a flaming chariot and spellfire-napalm the bad-guys with no fuss?" To me, it's not so much their stories but how far reaching their arms can be and the power they hold that has me scratching my head.
I can sympathize with your views, although I really, really, really dislike the New Realms and 4e (for completely different reasons). But the "The Chosen are too powerful / omnipresent / etc." discussion is almost as old as the published setting, and to examples like this I usually reply with a comparison with RW settings or scripts for blockbuster movies. Let's take Die Hard. In every movie the writers had to come up with an explanation why John McClane had to do all the work instead of the much, much more capable police / army / secret service. Same with RW settings. If you want the PCs to save New York, you have to come up with a reason why the authorities can't. That doesn't mean that an adventure in the real world is unplayable, it just means that you have to do a little more work. A dumbed down New York with no police force etc. would be pretty, well, dumb. A dumbed down setting in which the PCs are the most powerful heroes wherever they go (while the numerous evil factions all over the world kick back and just decide to strike when the PCs are near) would feel equally dumb to me.
I don't like the official portrayal of the Chosen either (and I ignore it), and like you, I've changed my Realms beyond recognition, but I kept the Chosen, I kept the benevolent organizations etc. for the above-mentioned reasons. Sure, it's more work, but it makes for a more plausible setting.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 16:41:19
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Besides, it's not like there is ever just one thing at a time for Chosen to deal with. There's a dozen of them, and millions of people in the Realms. Do the math.
To borrow the New York example... Imagine if the NYPD, with its current numbers and funding, had to police the entire USA. The Chosen aren't police, but they're in a similar situation. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Sep 2010 16:41:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 18:49:59
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The number of Police in NY state - which includes sheriffs, State police, and constabulary, is larger then many nations standing armies.
I heard that on TV somewhere recently.
'Police state', anyone?
Anyhow, yeah - even as Uber-powerful as superman is (insanely over-powered, actually), there are still bank robberies, muggings, and even dictatorships happening all the time. Even superman (and the JLA) can't be everywhere at once.
And just like Superman and the JLA, or the Avengers, or whatever group of heroes you use, they are usually 'off in space' or fixing 'planer rifts' and doing other 'cosmic things' - far too busy to help some little town fend off some Orcs... or stop some Lich from gaining power in The North.
The PCs are the Batmans and Captain Americas of the world... and every once in a great while, they outshine the 'Uber-heroes', and save the universe. 
As an aside, I think the groups (Players and DMs alike) that disliked FR the most, were those that didn't run 'good' groups, IMHO. Who wants to be a 'bad guy' in a world filled with Elminsters and Drizzts? Just my opinion, but it seems to make more sense then the 'they out-shine the PCs' argument. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2010 23:20:21 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 02:34:35
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Eh, people used to think that games in the Realms went something like this.
T: Game starts
T+1 minute: Elminster solves all in game problems, then ascends to have sex with Mystra.
T+2 minutes: PC's left with nothing to do. Game ends
Seems that plenty still think that, despite endless evidence to the contrary.
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 03:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Eh, people used to think that games in the Realms went something like this.
T: Game starts
T+1 minute: Elminster solves all in game problems, then ascends to have sex with Mystra.
T+2 minutes: PC's left with nothing to do. Game ends
Seems that plenty still think that, despite endless evidence to the contrary.
Funny, when I first started playing in the Realms I was completely unaware that Elminster ever did anything. He was just this Uber Sage...kind of like wikipedia--but crankier. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 04:52:35
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Gee, I make one situation involing a Chosen on their home turf and people seem to think that I'm applying this to the entire breadth of the Realms. I can see the Chosen as a form of JLA and I know for the most part that they tend not to take notice of plots/enemies that lowly level PCs struggle with. What I'm saying is that published adventures *cough* Shadowdale *cough* needed to somehow distance the uber-epic NPCs so the PCs could have the spotlight. Namely becaus their presence drastically effects what a PC can do in that area.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And, in the case of Alustriel, check out RAS' Hunter's Blades trilogy. Shows a pretty good example that the Chosen are NOT as powerful as showing up in a flaming chariot and napalming the bad guys. As Ed and THO have said time and again, they are agents of Mystra first and being so means that Mystra may not WANT them to do that, no matter what the Chosen wants.
Not entirely. Since I did read the novels, I know that Bruenor requested help from Silverymoon in defense of their Kingdom against Obould's advancing army. But this army was NOT on the door-step of Silverymoon and thus Alustriel had to weight the advantages/disadvantages of helping Bruenor out. Had Obould made a direct assault on Silverymoon's walls, rest assured Alustriel would've Napalmed the nine hells out of Obould's orc horde.
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
I can sympathize with your views, although I really, really, really dislike the New Realms and 4e (for completely different reasons). But the "The Chosen are too powerful / omnipresent / etc." discussion is almost as old as the published setting, and to examples like this I usually reply with a comparison with RW settings or scripts for blockbuster movies. Let's take Die Hard. In every movie the writers had to come up with an explanation why John McClane had to do all the work instead of the much, much more capable police / army / secret service. Same with RW settings. If you want the PCs to save New York, you have to come up with a reason why the authorities can't. That doesn't mean that an adventure in the real world is unplayable, it just means that you have to do a little more work. A dumbed down New York with no police force etc. would be pretty, well, dumb. A dumbed down setting in which the PCs are the most powerful heroes wherever they go (while the numerous evil factions all over the world kick back and just decide to strike when the PCs are near) would feel equally dumb to me.
Like I responded to Ashe's comment above, I understand that the Realms are a BIG place and the Chosen/JLA can't be every-where at once but to use your analogy, normally when someone does attack (say NY) the police come running and if I remember Die Hard correclty the LAPD and FBI were heavily involved as well (though they didn't do as good mind you). But I get what your saying. It just to me, areas where Chosen are present (Waterdeep, Shadowdale/Dalelands, Silverymoon, Anglarond, etc.) pretty much don't need help from PCs because they've got the CPA (Chosen Protection Agency, yea I like the sound of that!). And this is mostly true when you hit campaigns with character levels higher than 10.
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
I don't like the official portrayal of the Chosen either (and I ignore it), and like you, I've changed my Realms beyond recognition, but I kept the Chosen, I kept the benevolent organizations etc. for the above-mentioned reasons. Sure, it's more work, but it makes for a more plausible setting.
Zorro
As do I. I've kept the Harpers pretty much as-is along with many other 3e/3.5 organizations that are prevalent in 1375 DR. The Realms of 1479 DR have seen some changes but most of the core values remain (and yes the Chosen are all still there except Alustriel in my Realms).
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Edited by - Diffan on 07 Sep 2010 04:54:15 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 04:56:39
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Okay, I'd warn you AGAINST calling the Chosen the "JLA" around here. There have been long debates/flame wars both here and on the Wizards boards regarding seeing the Chosen as the JLA of the Realms.
And most people around here do NOT agree with that assessment. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 11:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Okay, I'd warn you AGAINST calling the Chosen the "JLA" around here. There have been long debates/flame wars both here and on the Wizards boards regarding seeing the Chosen as the JLA of the Realms.
And most people around here do NOT agree with that assessment.
Okay.....I'll refrain from using the JLA analogy for the sake of not starting anymore arguments (though I still like the CPA and that one will stick around for me a bit ). |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 03:03:41
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To add to the Chosen argument something that has undoubtedly said thousands of times before, not only are they just a handful of people in a world of millions, they are restricted by the fact that they serve the proliferation of magic first and their own agendas second. Does anyone remember the Elminster novel where he was specifically told by Mystra not to go out and destroy some Lich, Red Wizard, or Zhent spellcaster because his research into spells was furthering her portfolio, despite the fact that he was using the spells for evil? And also, in one of the novels Elminster spent time creating magic items and spell seeds and fragments for the purpose of placing them in tombs and ruins for people to one day find and finish researching, thus spreading the use of magic. Through all of this work, as well as his plane hopping, self-defense against enemy wizards, and checking in on his friends, fellow Harpers, and the Simbul I just don't see how he is supposed to have the time just to police the Dalelands, yet he and the handful of other Chosen are apparently preventing all adventures in a country that's, what, larger than Europe in area surely?
Also, for another argument that has probably been repeated ad nauseum, even if you were to say that the few Chosen are so powerful that they can prevent all major crimes from happening, wouldn't the powerful evil NPC's opposing them who are of similar status have to effectively cancel out the Chosen's influence? Or, as Wooly said, aren't there so many problems going on at once that they just can't stretch themselves that far? Let's say at sunrise a group of adventurers stumbles across a group of Beholders near Shadowdale and Elminster, or any Chosen, shows up immediately to wipe them out, then goes to kill a few liches who are plotting to destroy a town along the Sword Coast, stop a plot to assassinate a dozen merchant in Sembia by a hive of doppelganger assassins, takes out a family of dragons harassing a small town, and then spends an hour fending off a half dozen of ambitious Red Wizards who team up to take him out. Now its noon, he's exhausted and likely somewhat low on spell power, and has maybe saved a few thousand people from harm. There's no way that even all of the Chosen, were they to act as some kind of police force, would have the time, power, or ability to handle every single threat, even the major ones, that pop up in Faerun alone, and that doesn't take into account their individual duties like Alustriel's running of Silverymoon, what they need to do for Mystra, their need to defend themselves from attacks, and the fact that they need some leisure or relaxation time to not go utterly insane(if their unnaturally long lives haven't done so already).
As I said, I'm sure that's nothing that hasn't been said before but in my opinion these are compelling arguments for why the Chosen aren't some super hero police force, and gives logical reasons why they won't be helping the PCs do everything without even resorting to the explanations that Chosen aren't omniscient and could simply not know of a plot the PCs deal with.
Edit: Also, since I now realize the original topic of the thread is Mystra, not the Chosen, I will just say I can't believe Mystra would be killed in Dweomerheart, even by Shar and Cyric together. I also think that any deity who saw what happened to Netheril after Mystryl's death disrupted the Weave for mere moments would have a better plan than hoping that the Shadow Weave would stay up after the Weave is disrupted. I mean, it's called the Shadow Weave because it is the shadow of the original Weave, lying within the spaces of the Weave. If there's no original anymore there would be no shadow, even I can see how that would make sense. |
Edited by - idilippy on 08 Sep 2010 03:12:27 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 10:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not that Gods can't have a hand in doing things on the prime-material plane, just maybe not soo much?
I agree, but 4e could have changed that more simply, even saying that gods became mysteriously distant like in Eberron would be a better solution.
Yea, when I came to Mystra I would've liked to see her diminished slightly and have a lesser influence on the Realms. And more information on her less-than-goody two shoes Chosen would've done wonders to show her other sides and LN alignment.
Well, all the Chosen are mad, no matter what alignment is published, isn't that enough to build upon? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 23:46:24
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Where a good DM starts his party all depends on the party (and players) themselves.
So I would agree on a certain level that starting in or even running an adventure near Shadowdale should not be taken lightly. If your PCs want to be Harpers, go for it. If they are a bunch of adolescent jerks who want to kill farmers for fun, then no... start them in the north... in a remote corner.
The Realms requires 'balance', and Ed built that balance in from the beginning. The more civilized regions - most especially in the vicinity of Cormyr - is a 'no shenanigans' zone. Cormyr and the Dales couldn't possibly exist without the War Wizards or Elminster nearby, because of the shear number of threats to those places (bad guys do NOT like to be interfered with). Take the balancing factors out - the Harpers, Chosen, ect - and the baddies take over the world within 24 hours.
For a setting to be believable, there needs to be a certain amount of logic behind it, and FR has that.
There are TONS of places outside of the Heartlands where player characters can 'run amok', and quite a few within the Heartlands themselves (Stonelands, pre-3e Anauroch, Moonsea region, Unapproachable East, great swaths of The North, Ten Towns, The High Moor, ect...)
So the problem isn't a place where the PCs won't have interference - there seems to be far more of those (Maztica, The Wastes, Most of the Shining South, a plethora of islands, ect...) then 'patrolled' areas, but rather the problem stems from a DM either not knowing the Realms well, or not knowing his players well, or some combination of both.
I have (unfortunately) experience in this area - my bro-in-law's friends were the "lets go kill some farmers" types, and I made the mistake of starting them in the Dales (one I manufactured, not a canon one... THANK GOD), and I had to get them the hell out of their ASAP (one handy-dandy 'random' portal later). I didn't know the group all that well, and at that time, I was only somewhat familiar with the Realms themselves.
But I learned quick - you can't just plunk-down anyone anywhere (like I did with Greyhawk), and that's part of the beauty of the Realms. you can't do ANYTHING without their being consequences, including 'goodly deeds'. FR is a living world, and for every action their is a reaction - the players do not exist in a vacuum.
So the next time your PCs decide to interrupt some slave trade by a group of pirates, they had better start wondering about the buyers on the other end... the ones that are pretty pissed-off and looking for replacements. The evil groups are just as much a 'balancing factor' as the 'goodly' ones, and if you stir the pot often enough, you are going to get burned.
So don't worry about the 'Super friends', they have their hands full with the 'Legion of Doom', and the only ones that can make any 'headway' in this eternal stalemate are..... {drum-roll please}....
THE PC's! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2010 23:50:03 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 23:54:10
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Markus,
that is some major jonesing for Arby's brother. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:40:08
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I was thinking about making 'Arbeeze' the 'Ambrosia of the gods' in my setting. 
But seriously, that some damn good fast food, and I like Popeye's the same amount... another chain that went belly-up in this region. 
Seems like 'bland, tasteless crap' is the only stuff that can make it here on LI.
At the end of the day, I will always take a REAL restaurant over any fast-food chain though. I just obsess over things sometimes.....
...in case any of you haven't noticed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 00:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
That's not to say you aren't correct, high level non-spellcasters did have problems (in every edition since first). Now, Pathfinder's corrected some of those problems, as did 4th Edition. But, IMO, it hasn't been erased completely in either rules because of Wishes (unless 4E got rid of it?).
Yep, Wish is pretty much no-more in 4E and I say good-riddance. But I'll agree with you that Pathfinder did a much better job at making higher level play enjoyable for non-spellcasters.
So... if Wish is gone in 4E, and this is a retcon, not a change storylined in by the Spellplague, then that means that Vangerdahast never freed Nalavarauthatoryl, and therefore that Azoun and Tanalasta didn't die... at least, they didn't die the way they did in "Death of the Dragon"... therefore, we must conclude that all changes in magic in the 4E Realms are a consequence of the Spellplague, not a retcon at all. This, among many other things, is part of why time travel is a bad idea...
I could easily go off on a rant here, and while it wouldn't be off-topic for this scroll to do so, it's a rant I've done before, and I've deduced some very interesting things recently that make the OP's rant topic (the death of Mystra) far more tolerable. For the curious, read the lore... particularly that regarding Mystryl's and Mystra's relationship to the Weave and the circumstances of all three deaths of the goddess. My theory is posted in Ed's scroll, within the previous few days (if I remembered the exact date of every interesting thought I've had, I wouldn't have room to remember the interesting thoughts themselves).  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 18:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
That's not to say you aren't correct, high level non-spellcasters did have problems (in every edition since first). Now, Pathfinder's corrected some of those problems, as did 4th Edition. But, IMO, it hasn't been erased completely in either rules because of Wishes (unless 4E got rid of it?).
Yep, Wish is pretty much no-more in 4E and I say good-riddance. But I'll agree with you that Pathfinder did a much better job at making higher level play enjoyable for non-spellcasters.
So... if Wish is gone in 4E, and this is a retcon, not a change storylined in by the Spellplague, then that means that Vangerdahast never freed Nalavarauthatoryl, and therefore that Azoun and Tanalasta didn't die... at least, they didn't die the way they did in "Death of the Dragon"... therefore, we must conclude that all changes in magic in the 4E Realms are a consequence of the Spellplague, not a retcon at all. This, among many other things, is part of why time travel is a bad idea...
Wait, why are we talking about retcons? Just because theres an inability to cast Wish spells in 1479 DR doesn't mean that people in previous eras didn't cast them. Magic changed due to the spellplague but spells casted by say....Karsus still happened and there really weren't many retcons involving the 4eFR except for maybe Moon/Sun elves always being Eladrin.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I could easily go off on a rant here, and while it wouldn't be off-topic for this scroll to do so, it's a rant I've done before, and I've deduced some very interesting things recently that make the OP's rant topic (the death of Mystra) far more tolerable. For the curious, read the lore... particularly that regarding Mystryl's and Mystra's relationship to the Weave and the circumstances of all three deaths of the goddess. My theory is posted in Ed's scroll, within the previous few days (if I remembered the exact date of every interesting thought I've had, I wouldn't have room to remember the interesting thoughts themselves).
While I've little interest in Mystra or her demise I don't think it was needed honestly. First, it really angered many Realms fans which wasn't a good idea. Second, the weave could EASILY support the 4E magic system mainly because mechanics of D&D and lore don't necessarily have to mesh well. In fact, 4E still utilized the Vancian system (albiet heavily modified) and little in novels go so far as to specifically make notice of this magic system. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 19:21:32
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I agree on all counts, Diffan; I was just pointing out that if the absence of wish is a retcon (like the eladrin thing, which I ignore completely and always will), it really messes with 3E canon, not to mention earlier events. The butchering of magic (in particular the spell list; I actually like the idea of "at-will" spells, and I'm working on doing away with Vancian casting in the 3.x/Pathfinder ruleset framework) and the death of Mystra were the two biggest problems I had with 4E and the 4E Realms (largely because their bastard child was the Spellplague, which could have been far better executed).
In any case, it's done, and Diffan: if you haven't done so already, you really need to read Elminster Must Die... it just may be the best novel Ed has written; it's certainly his best since Elminster in Hell.
(and yes, the novel is relevant to the post topic)  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 11 Sep 2010 19:22:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 19:38:56
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ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.
That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).
At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.
IMHO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 19:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.
That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).
At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.
IMHO, of course.
I agree with you on many of those points Markus, yet I don't feel the Spellplague was really needed to bring in the new magic system. I can't recall one novel where it specifically states "Wizards in the Realms use the Vancian system of magic." just that wizards prepare spells from their spellbooks and often have to rest to regain the power to cast them again. Nothing in 4E mechanics changes this. They could've easily done FR with everything as is in 1375 DR without changing anything save Eladrin always having been Sun/Moon/Star elves. Aside from that, getting back to the main topic Mystra didn't really need to be killed to introduce the magic sstem since it was already supported by canon from the first place. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 21:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
ANY changes to magic in the new era - which means changes due to our meta-gaming knowledge of a new rules edition - are NOT retcons.
That was the entire purpose of the Spellplague. In that light, it truly was an excellent vehicle to change the magic system without retcons. A retcon is something that invalidates past lore, not changes lore in the current setting. Saying Elminster is a female in 4e is not a retcon - saying he was always a female would be. Saying that he was born female but was changed at birth by Mystra into a male would be.... 'iffy'. Thats one of those situations where half the people would scream 'retcon', and the other half would say 'not really'. It is a retcon, but only from a meta-game point of view. Ergo, nearly all of the changes to FR in 4e are not retcons, technically (but there are quite a few which still ARE).
At the same time, the circumstances under which it happened - hazy as they are - are rather suspect. An excellent example of a very good idea implemented rather poorly. The Spellpague didn't suck - the lore surrounding it did.
IMHO, of course.
Actually, now that the terminology's sorted out, I agree with you 100%. After my initial  response when it all got unveiled, and for too many months thereafter, I can and do appreciate the Spellplague conceptually... and I wish the implementation had been handled a bit more plausibly. Of course, that's the way things work in Hollywood, too... nobody ever does remakes of the good scripts that had flawed production; everyone just does inferior remakes of the great movies that can never be surpassed. It's like Tinseltown is in pursuit of mediocrity. And no, I'm not saying that's what's happening with the Realms, but if you look at the Spellplague as a "remake" of the Time of Troubles, the metaphor fits pretty well. I liked the ToT, in almost every detail of its implementation, apart from the deaths of the Dark Three, and compared with the Spellplague, its execution was near-perfect; true, there were some hiccups with consistency, but those got ironed out with "For Duty and Deity" and the novels following the Avatar Trilogy (just don't mention Bahamut). I could be biased, because the introduction of 2E was when I started DMing in the Realms (in the OGB and Dragon-article days I did no DMing), but it just seemed to me that the effects of the ToT were original in a way that the effects of the Spellplague were not. I'm probably not the best person to do the compare-and-contrast (due to my self-perceived bias), but if someone else wants to put one together (or has already done so), I'd be very interested in perusing it. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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silken
Acolyte
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 04:42:51
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Wow was this ever an interesting discussion to follow. I just finished reading The Ghost King and I absolutely wanted to know what the hell happened to Mystra beyond Cyric & Shar killed her.
The link provided in here made my jaw drop with it's lack of creativity. I can only hope someone somewhere in WoTC is going to come up with something more akin to the logical explanations and reasoning I came across here.
I am also in awe of how much you guys/gals know about this stuff. I haven't played tabletop OR computer game in years and years and have only been reading books now and again. You guys make me want to find my dice and have a go at it all again. |
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silken
Acolyte
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 05:01:56
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| Well...seems I jumped to conclusions and now I'm even more full of questions...:) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 15:41:16
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quote:
Originally posted by silken
Well...seems I jumped to conclusions and now I'm even more full of questions...:)
Read Elminster Must Die and all will be revealed. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 18:01:17
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| Yeah, you should read the books...will make you less angry. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 11:31:51
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I remember some years ago when the Spellplague hits me very hardly... I was shocked by the absolute lack of details about the event!
So I tried to put the pieces together (as others did) devising my own house-made version of the murder of Mystra... (posted here on CK for comments)...
I was somehow relieved by the fact that the authors in more than one occasion stated that they know how things really went...
But until now (maybe I'm wrong), aside from clues, obscure prophecies or visions, teasers and partial descriptions I'm still expectant the "official" complete version of it.
How longer should we have to wait? |
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How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
