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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  02:57:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)

Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...



We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.

I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier.

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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  03:01:41  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)

Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...



From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  03:25:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)

Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...



From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane



Cyric overheard this. That was how he got it.

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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  03:46:15  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by scererar

quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)

Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...



From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane



Cyric overheard this. That was how he got it.



that is what I was thinking, but did not remember enough to quote something without getting the book out It has been a long time since I read that particular trilogy. Thanks for the clarification.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Edited by - scererar on 31 Aug 2008 03:48:13
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Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
222 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  08:43:36  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.



I think it could be an heritage from the basic D&D Immortal set... Even if it is true that Powers earned more True Names as they grow up in levels.
The Avatar Trilogy was a way to introduce the new 2nd Edition to the realms, and maybe the 1st Advanced was still somehow related with some of the ideas of the basic D&D.

quote:

I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier.



There are a lot of explanations for this... (Cyric's madness, not the proper time, the need of something like an ally...)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  15:00:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

quote:

We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.



I think it could be an heritage from the basic D&D Immortal set... Even if it is true that Powers earned more True Names as they grow up in levels.
The Avatar Trilogy was a way to introduce the new 2nd Edition to the realms, and maybe the 1st Advanced was still somehow related with some of the ideas of the basic D&D.


It's my understanding that the original Dungeons and Dragons was a different beast than First Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

Even if it wasn't, I don't know of anything indicating that any of the Immortal material was ever used in the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

quote:

I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier.



There are a lot of explanations for this... (Cyric's madness, not the proper time, the need of something like an ally...)



The simplest explanation -- and the only one that really makes sense -- is that deities aren't subject to the restrictions of true names. Cyric wasn't mad before reading the Cyrinishad, and he was more than willing to attack Mystra -- hells, he had to attack the Weave directly to free Kezef. And Mystra had stripped him of his ability to use magic. If that wasn't a reason to nail her with her true name, then nothing was.

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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
657 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  16:16:33  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage  Send Ayunken-vanzan an AOL message  Send Ayunken-vanzan an ICQ Message  Click to see Ayunken-vanzan's MSN Messenger address Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not sure where I've read this but I think Mystra sacrificed the last or a great part of her former human being (Midnight) when Cyric tried to dominate her with her (human!) true name. So she could resist Cyric's attack since Mystra is not bound by the true of her former being. If someone could point me to a written source I'd be very grateful.

"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe

Philippines
125 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2008 :  14:16:21  Show Profile  Visit creyzi4zb12's Homepage Send creyzi4zb12 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.

orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3352 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2008 :  16:41:28  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12

We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.



Cyric killed Bhaal...but only with the help of Mask. Cyric never fought Bane, it was Torm who killed Bane.

There is no logical explanation for Mystra Dying at the hand of Cyric. I've mentioned it before:

Cyric attacking Mystra in her home plane is like a common thief attacking an Arch-Mage in his tower. The tower is riddled with traps, contingency magic, servants and a whole list of other pitfalls for a would-be assassin.

Even with the help of Shar to cloak him in the Shadow Weave; I find it ludicrous that the Shadow Weave would even WORK in Dweomerheart! If there are places where Weave Magic is supressed, you can be damn sure that Mystra is going to ensure that a powerful weapon can't be used against her!

There is no amount of logic...or, in this case, illogic...that is going to convince me that Cyric would be able to take on Mystra in Dweomerheart and kill her. I mentioned that I might believe a war against Mystra could result in her demise...one in which Cyric, Shar and other evil gods and fiends invaded Dweomerheart; but the "lone gunman" scenerio just isn't going to wash with me.
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Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
222 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  13:18:17  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


There is no amount of logic...or, in this case, illogic...that is going to convince me that Cyric would be able to take on Mystra in Dweomerheart and kill her. I mentioned that I might believe a war against Mystra could result in her demise...one in which Cyric, Shar and other evil gods and fiends invaded Dweomerheart; but the "lone gunman" scenerio just isn't going to wash with me.




It is illogic only because no explaination for this is given at all in the official lore...

A couple of peope, like myself, are trying to figure out a logical explaination for the event.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  02:05:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.

Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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lockdar
Seeker

Netherlands
18 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  08:20:32  Show Profile  Visit lockdar's Homepage  Click to see lockdar's MSN Messenger address Send lockdar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worse is actually a nice understatement, I now realize what a 'jaw-dropping moment' feels like since I just experienced it.

Save yourself a penny for the ferryman.
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Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
222 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  09:15:19  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
['AZZ!] (Italian way to express A LOT of surprise!)

ok... surprise set aside:
it was simply the attack that destroied Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?

Edited by - Arioch on 05 Nov 2008 10:14:18
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Ateth Istarlin
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
80 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  12:23:47  Show Profile Send Ateth Istarlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.

Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...


And so, 4FR takes yet another nose dive into the cesspit of lousy ideas!

The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first.
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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  12:58:00  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.

Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...

Hmmm ... a new thought: Hasbro sells "kids stuff", right? A lot of "kids stuff" is making fun of something. So that might be the reason why D&D is turning towards comedy as "lore" like this would indicate.

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  15:44:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I stated in that thread I started, I think Mr. Reid was told to include Mystra's death by Azuth's Staff (they are hedging their bets here), and that was what he came up with.

I'm unfamiliar with the storyline of that series, but from what little I have pieced together, that 'scene' was seen through the eyes of a main character, and didn't really have a lot to do with the novel. I'm just taking a shot in the dark here, but it almost seems as if Mr. Reid was annoyed by having to include something (for the sake of the game-setting) in HIS novel, and spitefully cheapened it to be the silliest scenario ever (or just didn't bother to give it more then two seconds worth of thought).

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

...or, you can tell an author what to write, but he can still screw you over with it's presentation.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2008 15:45:12
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:31:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We need to stop speculating on the author's intent, unless the author specifically weighs in. With the way the editing process at WotC works, we don't even know that he wrote that scene, or that he wrote it that way.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  19:45:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, my point was that it just seems out-of-place, which you also seem to be hinting at (albeit from a different perspective).

It just seems a little 'forced', is all.

And I wish the author would weigh-in on this, so we could know for sure who to point the finger of blame at.

I remember early-on that Chris Perkins made an announcment/post stating that all 4e decisions should be blamed on him (I should dig that up), and that we should leave "poor Rich Baker" alone.

So Wooly, since he stated that, can we just blame EVERYTHING thats wrong with the universe on him?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  20:24:18  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It just seems a little 'forced', is all.



I think a lot of the recent setting developments feel forced.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2909 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  02:53:01  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12

We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.


-You are wise little one! May Cyric bless thee.


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  03:04:55  Show Profile  Visit Ifthir's Homepage  Click to see Ifthir's MSN Messenger address Send Ifthir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin


I think a lot of the recent setting developments feel forced.



If people are talking about this type of event, the author has succeeded. My guess is that the entire storyline is manufactured to set up the bigger (and ultimately more profitable) storyline that is lurking just around the corner.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3075 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  03:47:14  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mean Bruce Cordell's next novel?

Plague of Spells

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ifthir
Learned Scribe

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  03:58:10  Show Profile  Visit Ifthir's Homepage  Click to see Ifthir's MSN Messenger address Send Ifthir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

You mean Bruce Cordell's next novel?

Plague of Spells



Just in time for Christmas too. Hope you bought your Hasbro stock!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  06:43:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having just read that link, I can't help myself...

quote:
From the Plague of Spells blurb
Raidon Kane emerges from the Spellplague with a sapphire tattoo burned into his flesh, strange supernatural powers, and eleven missing years.

The world had ended. How could he forget that?

His daughter is dead. His home has been destroyed. His life is empty save for one thing.


Okay... so now the fictional characters are even trying to block the Spellplague from their minds?

We should find out what happened to him, and then try to duplicate the process for we here at the keep.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2008 21:17:41
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  13:17:07  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12

We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.


-You are wise little one! May Cyric bless thee.


BRIMSTONE



But we do know much about Mystra's strength, straight from Ed, pretty much saying she is the biggest, baddest kid on the block. Reading what he has said about her in the past, this storyline is unbelievable at best.
Wooly and/or Sage may be able to point to Ed's discussions of here quicker than I, but I know he has discussed her.

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"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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